Abortion and the death penalty

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ July 25 2002,09:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> muderers and rapists deserve death.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree with that, but I also think that no man has a right to

kill other man, so I'm against death penalty.<span id='postcolor'>

The death penalty for rape is a very difficult issue. Many men get accused for rape without actually having had the intention. As you know there can be rape during marriage, there can be silent rape (where the girl remains quiet) and there can be the abuse of girls of minor age that does not perceive it as being abused (but her parents do). The whole issue is very complicated. If you want to kill them all you might hit one or the other average ´father of a family.

Against abortion. Well again I must refer to the USA. On the one hand most of you condem abortion in the strictest way and demand heavy penalties on the other hand you have the lightest laws for research of cloning stem cells and clonogenic cells. Now which of the two is worse?

[fraggit 0]

Abortion - Yes

Death Penalty - Somewhat. If the same bastard is committing these crimes repeatedly then yes. If it's the first charge then no.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 25 2002,05:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Duke: I'll give you this to think about: The bible says "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill unless the person is a criminal" but simply "Thou shalt not kill". I thought that the bible meant something for you?<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, read Exodus; you can be killed for plenty of crimes. The prescribed method is stoning.

Abortion is not a 'little baby being murdered' it is a lump of cellular jelly which is terminated, not a human. Whether or not we have the right to terminate it is another matter.

As for the death sentense, I am duel minded, but I do think that soceity must be able to deliver the ultimate punishment, and indeed deterrant to those who harm it greivously.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,11:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 25 2002,05:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Duke: I'll give you this to think about: The bible says "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill unless the person is a criminal" but simply "Thou shalt not kill". I thought that the bible meant something for you?<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, read Exodus; you can be killed for plenty of crimes. The prescribed method is stoning.<span id='postcolor'>

That's the old testament, yes, but not the new.

OT: An eye for an eye

NT: Turn the other cheek

I would go with the new one since it was most recently updated

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 25 2002,11:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,11:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 25 2002,05:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Duke: I'll give you this to think about: The bible says "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill unless the person is a criminal" but simply "Thou shalt not kill". I thought that the bible meant something for you?<span id='postcolor'>

Actually, read Exodus; you can be killed for plenty of crimes. The prescribed method is stoning.<span id='postcolor'>

That's the old testament, yes, but not the new.

OT: An eye for an eye

NT: Turn the other cheek

I would go with the new one since it was most recently updated <span id='postcolor'>

Lol Indeed!

[LauryThorn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want to kill them all <span id='postcolor'>

I didn't say that I would like to kill them.

I usually don't want to kill even flies!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The death penalty for rape is a very difficult issue. Many men get accused for rape without actually having had the intention. <span id='postcolor'>

Many men get accused, that is true.

And often media says that "a girl was raped by a black man",

when actually the girl just accuses the black man of rape.

Many rape accusations turn out to be just "sexual harrassment",

but the media doesn't recognize that. They just want

screaming headlines or whatever.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want to kill them all you might hit one or the other average ´father of a family.<span id='postcolor'>

If my father turned out to be a raper, I think that he would deserve

death. (i just hope that my father isn't a raper )

Rape is rape, whether it is done in your own home or in the nearby

park.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ July 25 2002,12:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want to kill them all <span id='postcolor'>

I didn't say that I would like to kill them.

I usually don't want to kill even flies!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The death penalty for rape is a very difficult issue. Many men get accused for rape without actually having had the intention. <span id='postcolor'>

Many men get accused, that is true.

And often media says that "a girl was raped by a black man",

when actually the girl just accuses the black man of rape.

Many rape accusations turn out to be just "sexual harrassment",

but the media doesn't recognize that. They just want

screaming headlines or whatever.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want to kill them all you might hit one or the other average ´father of a family.<span id='postcolor'>

If my father turned out to be a raper, I think that he would deserve

death.  (i just hope that my father isn't a raper )

Rape is rape, whether it is done in your own home or in the nearby

park.<span id='postcolor'>

I think if we are talking about the death sentence seriously it is for murder, and possibly grand treason. Many crimes are digusting but the death sentence isn't suitable for all of them.

[WhoCares 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (fraggit @ July 25 2002,11:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Death Penalty - Somewhat. If the same bastard is committing these crimes repeatedly then yes. If it's the first charge then no.<span id='postcolor'>

But what if he was innocent in the last case and only sentenced because he did it before?

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (WhoCares @ July 25 2002,12:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (fraggit @ July 25 2002,11:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Death Penalty - Somewhat. If the same bastard is committing these crimes repeatedly then yes. If it's the first charge then no.<span id='postcolor'>

But what if he was innocent in the last case and only sentenced because he did it before?<span id='postcolor'>

See my previous post, death is not a sentence that is going to be passed for a crime you can do twice. It will be given for the most serious crimes one can commit.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I think it sounds so ridiculous that people demonstrate about abortion while there is a group of Hobos behind them that stands in line for a hot soup. Maybe you should first care the ones which are actually already alive and then produce new ones. This sounds like a very strange argument, I know, but it is just as strange as the ones from the Anti-abortion fundamentalists.

Anyway, screw the bible, I believe in god but damm dont take the bible too seriously. Maybe you should read some Albert Schweitzer, he was the first one to present his echatological interpretation of the bible proofing that Jesus was in fact wrong about his own death. This thesis is well accepted by scientist and the curch could not counterproof it yet, and they invested a lot.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

Abortion is the termination of little half baby monsters. If I ever saw a fetus on the sidewalk I'd probably smash it for being so ugly looking. Just like a cockroach.

The death penalty is rediculous. If I can't kill someone, the government can't kill someone. I'm not a big fan of double standards.

Not to mention the fact that I don't think it acts as a deterent. Nowadays you get a nice humane lethal injection. So in the mind of a murderer he could think "I hate these bastards and I need to kill them. If I get caught, hell at least my death with be a lot less painful then theirs."

Maybe in the olden days when you were beheaded in public square it was more effective.

[KingBeast 0]

Abortion - Im not against it, simply because when you think about it, isnt the morning after pill exactly the same? ie it prevents the things from growing into anything human.

Well at least thats how I see it. And no one should have the right to make it legal or illegal. Ultimately it is the parents (yes mother AND father) choice in the matter.

Im surprised the subject of euthanasia wasnt included in this topic also!

Death Penalty - Im against it. In my opinion it does not discourage murder enough to be justified. Now, if it was called the "torture penalty" then of course its going to discourage people from murder, but i dont agree with torture either. So either you do it properly, or you dont do it at all.

Only thing the death penalty serves to do is to give those affected the impression that something is being done about their loss and therefore make them feel better. Isnt really Justice at all.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Abortion: Yes.

The man and the woman should decide what to do together, not the woman alone. They were two to create the child, they should be two to decide whats best for themself and for an upcoming child. A fetus isnt a little baby, a sperm isnt a small baby, an egg isnt a little baby. But yes, of course the woman should have the final choice, but the farther should be able to walk out from it, since he decided that he didnt wanted the child. Financial support or not.

This of course doesnt apply to a girls that have been pregnant under a rape.

Death penalty: No!

Who are we to judge another persons death, when one of the principals in our community is NOT to take another mans life or death?

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,15:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not to mention the fact that I don't think it acts as a deterent.  Nowadays you get a nice humane lethal injection.  So in the mind of a murderer he could think "I hate these bastards and I need to kill them.  If I get caught, hell at least my death with be a lot less painful then theirs."

Maybe in the olden days when you were beheaded in public square it was more effective.<span id='postcolor'>

That isn't how it works, It is society sending out the clear message that it will not tolerate crimes against it. The most henious crimes require the maximum penalty in my opinion. You don't have a right to commit crime.

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ July 24 2002,22:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Lol. What a surprise.

´

My views:

Abortion - a woman's right, a fetus is not a human being

Death penalty  - illogical and you risk killing innocent persons.

... and those here who know me and are still surprised that those are my views should have their brians examined

Duke: I'll give you this to think about: The bible says "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say "Thou shalt not kill unless the person is a criminal" but simply "Thou shalt not kill". I thought that the bible meant something for you?<span id='postcolor'>

You guys post all the fun topics when I'm in bed and asleep, and I can't even reply to them until they're 4 pages long!

Actually, Denoir, the Bible says "Thou shall not murder." (Exodus 20:13)

There is a difference between kill and murder. Kill is defined by the Merriam Webster College Dictionary as "to deprive of life." Murder, in turn, is defined as "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought."

It goes on to say that "KILL merely states the fact of death caused by an agency in any manner <killed in an accident> <frost killed the plants>," and that "MURDER specifically implies stealth and motive and premeditation and therefore full moral responsibility <convicted of murdering a rival>."

So let's not confuse murder and kill.

Abortion: Sure, in this country it's a woman's right, or as I like to say, her "legal alternative option." But to those of you who don't think a fetus is a human being, I say this: You must not have kids, because anyone who has been through a pregnancy can not, in all truthfulness, say that a fetus is not a human being. I have ultrasound pictures of my son and my daughter. At 5 months into the pregnancy, each of my kids had a distinctive profile. I could see their little noses and eyes, and I have a picture of the bottom of my son's foot. You can count the tiny toes in the picture. The "fetus" has a fully-functioning body by 11 weeks. All the organs are there, and they only grow during the rest of the pregnancy. The baby has a complete nervous and circulatory system (meaning that they can feel pain). They have fingerprints. Dude, a baby that small could stand on your fingernail, and it has fingerprints.

When my kids were born, I spent hours while my wife slept in our hospital room just staring at these beautiful little people. I was amazed that they have tiny fingernails, and fingerprints, and these tiny little feet. I've witnessed two live births, and each one is a total miracle. It's juicy, and stinky, and it's hell, because you can go 2 days without sleep and food. But it's the most beautiful experience you'll ever have, to see YOUR child being born.

You just try to put into words the feeling you get when you first hold your new son or daughter in your arms. You can't. You will never understand what that's like until you experience it for yourself. Life seems so precious and fragile then. It's a shame that so many people take it for granted.

Do you know what abortions do? I mean physically. Do you know how abortions work? There are two primary methods for aborting babies. One is the saline method. They inject saline into the uterus of the mother, which basically burns the baby alive. Their skin hasn't been exposed to the open air yet, so it's much more fragile and sensitive than ours. Have you ever gotten battery acid on your hand? Or hot oil? It's the same thing. And because they have a fully-developed nervous system, they can feel all of it. The other common method is the suction method. They basically put a vacuum nozzle inside the mother and suck the baby out. Usually, it rips the tiny human apart first, but it gets the job done.

I've seen pictures of this. It is something that, if you see it, you will never forget it. I guaran-fricking-tee that.

Sure. Abortion is the choice of the mother. But abortion for convenience is wrong. It is morally wrong. The only situation where I can see it being at all conceivable is if the mother is advised by the doctor in the interest of saving her life (in the case of a tubal pregnancy, for example). But even then, it's like, do you want to abort the baby and live, or do you want to risk your life and try to carry this baby to full-term? I know my wife would want to risk it. I'd hate the thought of losing her, more so than the thought of losing one of my kids. But that's how we feel about it. But every other abortion has no good explanation.

Now, you may say "But Turk, what if the mother is raped, or in the case of incest?" Here's what I say. That sucks. My wife was raped, and I can't tell you how much I'd love to find the guy that did it and skin him alive with a sheet of sandpaper. But two wrongs don't make a right. If you're going to quote the Bible in the whole "Thou shalt not kill" (even though that's a misquote), then you have to allow it to be applied here too. Deuteronomy 24:16 says "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin." Also, Ezekiel 18:20 says that "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him." So basically, why should an innocent human baby die because they guy that created him is a vile person? Yeah, I don't think the mother should suffer either, but there are other ways to alleviate the suffering BESIDES abortion.

I'll stop here and move on to the next topic: The Death Penalty. (Just to warn you...there will probably be a few posts between this and my Death Penalty one.)

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,04:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Abortion is not a 'little baby being murdered' it is a lump of cellular jelly which is terminated, not a human. Whether or not we have the right to terminate it is another matter.<span id='postcolor'>

See my above post please. A human fetus is not a "lump of jelly," and that has been medically proven.

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 25 2002,05:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Anyway, screw the bible, I believe in god but damm dont take the bible too seriously. Maybe you should read some Albert Schweitzer, he was the first one to present his echatological interpretation of the bible proofing that Jesus was in fact wrong about his own death. This thesis is well accepted by scientist and the curch could not counterproof it yet, and they invested a lot.<span id='postcolor'>

I would like to see your sources for this information.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Wow this got alot of response! What have I done?!!! Anyway the Bible States that a murder shall be put to death, I believe that is in Genisis Chapter 22, just read it yesterday. How can you be for killing babies? It is no differnet somebody go out on the street and shooting sum a person. So if you want to go aginst God's law by killing babies go ahead, but I would hate to be the doctor who did it when he met God.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

How was Jesus wrong about his own death?

[JohnBEsq 0]

Abortion - A terrible thing, yes, but also a womans chioce.

Death Penalty - Would be an effective deterrant if it was executed properly (no pun intended).  The means of state applied executions are WAY to nice and clean to be that much of a deterrant.  Electrocution, firing squad, hanging and guillotine should be the only forms allowed.  Lethal injection is too nice for these people. And each and every execution should be viewed on prison tv sets so every inmate can see what is waiting for them if they don't reform.

I also say have a lottery to see who gets to pull the switch or pull the trigger, would raise a lot of money I think. I know I would buy a chance.

[Sam Samson 0]

I'll chip my two cents worth in.

a human starts at conception. to kill it is wrong.

the death penalty is something very serious. God installed it, yes, (hey, won't we all die?), but please, put somebody's light out only if there are more than one credible witness to the misdeed. if the evidence is circumstancial, a life sentence will do. death is the only punishment you can't reverse.

so, treat lightly, guys. and no lynching. (even Cain was not to be lynched.)

about Jesus: I really believe he was God in the flesh and that I'll meet him one of these days.

about his death: it happened as it was prophecied.

just read Isaiah 53. It describes precisely what Jesus went through, 700 years before the fact.

or, my favorite: Psalms 22, 17-22:

it talks about the crucifixion (...they have pierced my hands and my feet...) and the gambling over his clothes a solid 1000 years before it happened. (compare with Matthew's gospel 27, 35.)

God is real, guys.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ July 25 2002,12:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll chip my two cents worth in.

a human starts at conception. to kill it is wrong.

the death penalty is something very serious. God installed it, yes, (hey, won't we all die?), but please, put somebody's light out only if there are more than one credible witness to the misdeed. if the evidence is circumstancial, a life sentence will do. death is the only punishment you can't reverse.

so, treat lightly, guys. and no lynching. (even Cain was not to be lynched.)

about Jesus: I really believe he was God in the flesh and that I'll meet him one of these days.

about his death: it happened as it was prophecied.

just read Isaiah 53. It describes precisely what Jesus went through, 700 years before the fact.

or, my favorite: Psalms 22, 17-22:

it talks about the crucifixion (...they have pierced my hands and my feet...) and the gambling over his clothes a solid 1000 years before it happened. (compare with Matthew's gospel 27, 35.)

God is real, guys.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh no not again...

[JohnBEsq 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ July 25 2002,04:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"I don't know about USA/Europe, but the court system here in Australia is a joke. Judges give away pathetically light sentences for murder and rape, yet throw the proverbial book at embezzlers and tax dodgers. It's a pet hate of mine, how judges go on record as saying "most heinous crime of this sort I have ever seen blah blah blah" and then giving some pathetically light sentence out."

Yeah, its the same basically. You would get prison time for shooting a wolf here. Recently a drunk driver ran down and killed two 15 year old girls and got a couple of weeks community service (cant remember if it was two weeks or two months, still, a joke)<span id='postcolor'>

Where do you think the term "Kangaroo Court" got it's name from?

[Sam Samson 0]

what's yer problem, residuum?

those guys can read and post faster than a speeding bullet.

[billytran 0]

Abortion - You bet I'm against it. It's nothing more than killing an innocent human being. A fetus is not a lump of cellular jelly it is a living, thinking, human being. If you don't want a baby, fine, put it up for adoption. All the pain of childbirth is not worth killing a baby for. If you were raped, that doesn't give you the right to kill your baby. Just go through with the birth and put it up for adoption, there are plenty of people out there willing to adopt.

Death Penalty - I'm for it. It's not against the Ten Commandments, because they say "Thou shalt not do murder." Also, it's an incredibly big deterrent of crime. Just look at how low the crime rate in Texas is, people are afraid of getting the death penalty.