Britain to dump sa80 for g36?

[Mister Frag 0]

Original story can be found on Jane's.

As the SA-80's woes continue, it looks like time to start again

By Terry J Gander, Editor of Jane's Infantry Weapons

The British Army's SA-80 Individual Weapon (IW) and Light Support Weapon (LSW) are back in the news for the wrong reasons. Despite extensive modifications it seems that they continue to jam and cause problems for their users.

At present the two types are destined to remain in service until at least 2015. That may not now happen.

Things went wrong with the SA-80 from the outset. Soon after production began during the early 1980s, reports poured in that the IW was too heavy, was poorly balanced and that bits fell off when least expected, including the magazine during firing. One of the main problems was jamming, especially under operational conditions, such as during the Gulf War.

Some of the early shortcomings were at least alleviated by teams of army technicians touring operational units and making modifications. Unfortunately those tours seem to have been made several times before it was realised that more drastic modifications would be necessary. By that time production had switched to Nottingham, causing some supply disruptions before production ceased in 1994.

In September 1996 the IW was suspended from the NATO Nominated Weapon List. That finally prompted official high-level action to rectify matters, leading to a series of trials following which Heckler and Koch was awarded a modification contract, which involved virtually re-engineering the interior of the weapon and providing a new magazine. The first modified IWs were reissued from February 2002, just in time for Afghanistan. It then emerged that the old problems were still there.

It would appear that the only certain way to rectify the IW/LSW unreliability situation is to start again. Both weapons have now gained such a reputation for unreliability that even the slightest shortcoming will result in calls for replacement, the most likely candidate being the Heckler and Koch G36.

[Aaron Kane 0]

Dont do it Brits!

It'd ALMOST be like the Germans conquering England... to a small extent

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Uh oh... if this happens, itd be the first time a military sucked it up, admitted they were wrong, and did the right thing. That would be scary, and probably is the sign of the Apocalypse

[Guest]

Do you think that it is a coincidence that it was Heckler & Koch who did the new improvements on the SA-80

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aaron Kane @ July 14 2002,06:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dont do it Brits!  

It'd ALMOST be like the Germans conquering England... to a small extent  <span id='postcolor'>

Don't worry, H&K is owned by BAe Systems.

We might het a reliable rifle for the first time in 20 years!

But I do like the beleagured old 80, oh well.

[Paratrooper 0]

Am I wrong to want this for the Army?

I don't think so. Why go back on the NATO approved weapons list?

[dayglow 2]

Did it actually work as advertised? It didn't make it past concept did it?

COLINMAN

[Guest]

The G11 is IMO the best assault rifle ever made. It was about to go into production when the project was shut down because of political reasons (end of Cold War, unification of Germany...). The prototypes that they built were by far superior to any rifle built so far. Later Germany adopted the G36 as the standard issue rifle, which is inferior to the G11.

You can read about it here and here

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

All i know is it was a very nice weapon in Rainbow 6

( NATO MOD ) with a novel design

I think it would be a cool choice

But what about the price issue? i imagine it would be pretty expensive (though the Ministry of Defence is due to be allocated an extra 'war on terror' billion Å's which would help)

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Looks to me as if the OICW evolved out of the G-11.

Not bad

[ran 0]

the g11 and the us oicw are really different

the oicw 5.56 gun is a modified g36 wich use 5.56x45 nato rounds

the g11 uses 50 rounds mags , it's a 4.73x33 caseless rifle

the g11 doesn't involve any electronics

the only thing they have common i think is the composite they use for the "case" of the rifle

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Wow that is a HIGHLY unusual feature. It must move pretty damn fast to go through 90ÅŸ and back in the blink of an eye

But this is great:

"When firing single shots, the housing moves back and forward after the each shot. When firing the full-auto, the housing moves back and forward during each shot, resulting in moderate rate of fire of some 600 round per minute. But, when firing the three-round bursts, second and third cartridges are feed and fired as soon as the chamber is ready for it, and third bullet leaves the barrel PRIOR to the moment when the housing becomes to its rearward position. This results in wery high rate of fire with three-shots bursts - ca. 2000 rounds per minute. Also, this results in that the actual recoil affects the rifle AFTER the last bullet in the burst is fired."

so for a single three round burst, no recoil

And

"for a total weight of less than ten pounds ( about the same weight of an empty MI Garand rifle! ) , a soldier can carry 135 rounds already loaded in magazines right on the rifle. The center magazine presents rounds to the mechanism during firing and is easily and quickly exchanged with the two outside magazines during reloading."

But

"due to some reasons the whole programme was cancelled by German Government. Main reasons of this cancellation were, in my opinion, the lack of fundings after the re-union of the West and East Germanies, and the general NATO policy for unification of the ammunition and even magazines for the assault rifles."

doesnt sound very likely as the second reason still applies (presumably)

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

No, they are NOT different They have the same bulky look about them

Thats what I really meant

[GFX707 0]

Yup, the G11 is basically the freakin pulse rifle from Aliens

Any army equipped with that would be VERY hard indeed. Hitting someone square in the forehead with a three round burst would be pretty damn good, and it SEEMS like the logical progression from the technology they use just now rather than the OICW

[Tex -USMC- 0]

They had it in their hands, and they lost it. Lifes a bitch, aint it?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

The most interesting thing about the G11 to me is the caseless ammo. Its, in essence, a flechette weapon, and can save weight and design capital by not having to fuck with a shell ejection mechanism.

One thing though, whats the effective range on that honey? Cuz it seems awful compact and the ammo a little too unorthodox to be effective outside 300 yards

Other than that, its a beauty, and the 3 round burst with no recoil makes it absolutely the most deadly thing to ever happen to CQB since the frag grenade

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

The articles said that the sights work up to 600m, and that effective target range is about 300m.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Ahh well, cant have everything can we? Not that your average grunt would be hitting all that much past 200 yards in a combat situation anyways, but still, its good to know that youve got something other than yer SAW that can hit out that far, even if its just an area target.

[Blaegis 0]

G11 is a beaut allright. At least the technology still remains and maybe someday they'll do something worthwhile with it. BTW, does anyone know if HK has resolved the ammunition cook-off problem they had with the G11?

[Paratrooper 0]

But should it be adopted by the British Army? It is not NATO standard ammunition and the program would be expensive.

But it is a first class weapon and would put the British Army at the vanguard of infantry weapons.

Or would the more orthodox G36 be better?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 14 2002,21:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But should it be adopted by the British Army? It is not NATO standard ammunition and the program would be expensive.<span id='postcolor'>

Now that the Soviet Union is gone, the only people who benefit from NATO countries standardising their munitions are the munitions makers. This weapon represents a revolutionary step forward in a field that was thought to have reached its practical limits. I think if your army ends up with the best assault rifle ever, its worth the cost- especially if your current model likes to do things like jam in combat and misfire.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now that the Soviet Union is gone, the only people who benefit from NATO countries standardising their munitions are the munitions makers. <span id='postcolor'> Well it does help in joint operations, I think the G36 would still be a good rifle.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

It would be- Im not denying that the G36 is a good rifle, its just that if you arent innovating you are stagnating. I would suggest that Britain upgrades it rifles during a time of relative peace when they can afford to mess up a few times.

[Blaegis 0]

G36 represents the high point in the evolution of "traditional" assault rifles dating all the way back to Sturmgewehr44 and AK-47, so if the British Army switches, it will end up with an excellent infantryman's weapon (I have yet to see HK produce a bad one   ). However, as Tex has pointed out, the G11 represents something new entirely and which may provide the troops using it with an edge in the long run - despite the teething problems that any new weapon system is plagued by or the issue of ammo incompatibility.

That's why I can't understand the US Army's decision to go ahead with OICW - it can accompish little that an M4/M203 with a good sight can't do, costs a good deal more, weighs a ton and uses a lot of electrnic gadgetry that is bound to get busted in the field...

[Sneaky 0]

When it comes to HK arms info, HKPro is the place to go.

Link to the G11 and the G36 here.

I really like the G36; extremely reliable, lightweight, accurate and good sights.

That's one of the guns I hopefully will use when I enter the Norwegian Kystjegerkomando (think marines) in one month.

Can hardly wait