Firefight Dynamics in ArmA 3

[-Coulum- 35]

Great thread. Would love to see more aim wobble (aimprecision) introduced and adust with weight and size of weapon. Bigger ones wobbled more, especially when moving

Great idea. In addition, directly after moving, shooting, turning suddenly and scoping in more wobble should happen and longer for heavier weapons.

@wamingo

Yes scopes are overpowered and ruin the ai.part of this is because when using scopes it is way to easy to see people as discussed in the foliage thread.

Of course if the ai knew how to hide like I've been suggesting scopes wouldn't be such fast killers.

And I agree with you point on terrain. Denser foliage and forests, micro terrain, and more random objects to fill up the open spaces would be great to to improve firefights. My personal opinion is that improving the ai's reaction to fire is the best thing to do to make firefights more realistic.

[Whirly 1]

With the low ai accuracy that most players play at

This is a critical fault that should be avoided at all costs because it will cause a negative effect on AI behaviour.

Only problem is the ai with super accuracy also leads to shorter battles

I haven't found this to be the case and I have been playing Arma for years.

Which leads me to my next point which is that ai should be more like the human and hear sonic cracks. when they do they should fully hide themselves behind cover until a few seconds after they cannot hear the sonic cracks. then they can pop out from cover and start returning fire until they are suppressed again. This would present us with real suppressive fire that players could actually use to their advantage and make weapons like the saw have realistic use.

If you use the correct settings the AI makes great use of suppressive fire.

C4_QxF3lFwg

[-Coulum- 35]

This is a critical fault that should be avoided at all costs because it will cause a negative effect on AI behaviour

Do mean we should be avoiding inaccurate ai. If so you are totally right. I play with pretty much 100% accuracy because without they can't even come close to competing with humans.

I haven't found this to be the case and I have been playing Arma for years.

When playing with smarter players against ai you are right. But when I play with my small grouP of friends we need to add some friendly ai to boost our numbers. Increasing the accuracy of the ai definitely make ai on ai battles much faster.

If you use the correct settings the AI makes great use of suppressive fire.

Yes the ai actually provide quite a bit of suppressive fire. Actually sometimes a bit too much leading to friendly fire. But what I was suggesting was not to make the ai provide better suppressive fire but rather to make the ai respond to enemy suppressive fire and become suppressed themselves. Try firing a saw around an ai behind cover. He will just stand there and return fire. He doesn't even flinch. In my opinion he should go prone concealing himself so he is out of danger just like a player would. The ai need to react to suppressive fire so players can implement it into their tactics and have more realistic fights.

[Tom1 10]

While the AI do use effective supresive fire, they don't react properly to supresive fire. Don't stick up for the AI they need improving ;)

[Whirly 1]

Tom1 if your so certain the AI aren't affected by suppression fire then can you explain why the Opfor AI don't return fire upon the Blufor AI in the video I posted. I'm not attempting a vain quest to persuade people that the AI is perfect, my intention is to explain that a little fine-tuning can drastically improve AI performance. If people want to get the very best qualities out of the AI in Arma 3 then they need to know the optimal settings.

[-Coulum- 35]

As far as I know, when bullets

impact within half a meter of the ai they cause the ai's rate of fire to drop and their accuracy to drop. It actually drops by quite a bit. Put 10 rounds into the ground infront of an ai and he won't even fire at you for a fair bit of time, even if you are very near to him.

I guess this is a good start but it is not nearly good enough. Infact the drastic drop in rate of fire often leads to people saying the ai is stupid because it just stares at you sometimes when it should be shoot full auto at you. To make this suppression system actually useful I think:

Not only should impacting shots cause suppression but also shots snapping by.

The radius the bullet needs to come within the ai should be increased to at least 1.5 meters.right now it is easier to hit the ai than suppress them.

Ai accuracyy should decrease by up to 50% percent for a short period of time.

Ai rate of fire should decrease a little maybe 25%

Ai should be forced to go prone and stay stationary if they were previously walking, stationary, in cover or completing an engage order for a short period of time. If there is nearby cover (10m) they should sprint to this first and then go prone stay stationary.

Ai in the middle of running somewhere should sprint to complete their move. Once completed they should follow the above.

Ai within 20 meters of enemy should only go crouched instead of prone.

I don't know, but I think this type of behavior which is quite basic, could really help the ai survivability in arma 3. Whirly you are right, ai do get suppressed but this effect is currently no easy enough to trigger, due to only impacts within .5 metres causing it, and doesn't actually lengthen the life of those getting suppressed. The current actions of the ai also don't really reflect the actions of a human under fire. If you hear sonic cracks snap by you run to nearby cover if available and go prone behind it. If none is available you simple go prone and hope for the best (or at least that's what I do). The ai should try to do the same thing. with the current suppression effects I don't think they do and it is one of the main causes for short unrealistic firefights. the ai doesn't really try to preserve themselves by fully hiding behind cover.

Edited March 10, 2012 by -Coulum-

[wamingo 1]

"Not only should impacting shots cause suppression but also shots snapping by."

Totally agree. If far enough way the AI can't hear the shot, RPG's, tank shells, you name it, can whiz right over their heads without reaction.

[boredgunner 1]

Maybe it’s just me but does anybody dislike the way firefights play out in arma 2, or at least think that they should be improved. I personally think that they unfold far to quickly and make very little use of suppressive fire, and fix, flank, finish kind of stuff.

Currently shooting to kill is pretty much the only type of shooting that occurs (at least in coop and sp. I don’t know about pvp). I hope that firefights in arma 3 last longer, survive to shorter proximities (ie. 150m), and put more emphasis on suppressive fire, flanking etc. I am just wondering whether others think similarly and if so how this could be achieved in arma 3. Does anybody know whether there are going to be any improvements in A3 to achieve longer firefights.

In other words, AI needs lots of work in combat (and in general). I agree.

Edited March 11, 2012 by boredgunner

[Whirly 1]

Whirly you are right, ai do get suppressed but this effect is currently no easy enough to trigger, due to only impacts within .5 metres causing it, and doesn't actually lengthen the life of those getting suppressed. The current actions of the ai also don't really reflect the actions of a human under fire. If you hear sonic cracks snap by you run to nearby cover if available and go prone behind it.

This is how the AI react under fire if you are using the correct settings.

GYgM5ZRRSbg&context=C45387feADvjVQa1PpcFODIfYh5xtQeNWMxX7Jna6wRmFovYP-R3g=

[noubernou 77]

The real big problem with AI is demonstrated in the above video. I get most of my kills when the AI do stupid things like randomly go from knee to standing up then trying to go prone, they always seem to want to bring themselves to a standing position and make minor adjustments that way. They should be attempting to move in the least exposed way, if they are at a knee then they should go prone to make an adjustment in their position, not stand up!

[Whirly 1]

if they are at a knee then they should go prone to make an adjustment in their position, not stand up!

The AI couldn't go prone in that particular position as it would have resulted in a clipping problem with the wall. I agree it would be ideal if the AI duck-walked to change position rather than stand up and expose itself to direct fire.

[noubernou 77]

The AI couldn't go prone in that particular position as it would have resulted in a clipping problem with the wall. I agree it would be ideal if the AI duck-walked to change position rather than stand up and expose itself to direct fire.

Easily could have rotated then gone prone.

[-Coulum- 35]

In other words, AI needs lots of work in combat (and in general)

For the most part yes. But there are many other things that could be improved upon to make firefights more interesting. More micro terrain, harder spotting, improved rendering of camouflage, increased weapon sway and shooting mechanics are all other things I think could add to firefights to make them better. But yes the most important thing to get longer firefights is to improve ai behavior.

@whirly

Okay I give up. what "settings" are you talking about.

That movie does show the ai taking cover pretty well - and in general I do not really disagree that they don't take cover. But it can be analysed in different ways.

For example

the ai takes cover well initially - no disagreeing with that. But then why does he leave this position and even worse go into a standing stance while doing so. What was wrong with his position derictly behind the wall? I know that if I were him I would hug the wall as close as possible.

Then he goes from prone to crouch to prone to crouched again. I know this is supposed to demonstrate that the ai knows how to duck in and out of cover but I interpret it as the ai not knowing what to do with itself and caught in a bit of a glitch. There was no incoming fire so he is not going prone because he fears for his life. He is just going prone because he... well I don't really know. I assume it is one of the procedures in the danger state. These things are pretty much impossible to prevent so I really don't have any problem with them. But I don't believe the ai is going prone to hide himself.

After figuring out that the crouched stance will give him the best vantage point the ai starts to open up on the enemy. nothing wrong with that.

Overall though this vid still doesn't really show the ai reacting to rounds snapping passed by ducking in and out of cover. And I bet if the first shot hadn't impacted so close or had snapped by instead of hitting the ground, the ai wouldn't have reacted. I also bet that If the shooter had been more aggressive and kept up fire on the ai, the ai would have still remained crouched until he was hit. I really don't think he would have gone prone and hid until a lull in the fire and then popped up for a peep and attempt to return fire.

Don't get me wrong, I respect the ai in arma 2. They beat any other game ai I have ever seen. but I think that what we have right now is not enough and because of arma's unforgiving gameplay, the ai still need improvement when it comes to preserving their own lives. Right now all they do to is place themselves in cover and return fire(which is actually quite impressive in such a vast world).But now I am really hoping that BI will take them to the next level in terms of defensive behaviour. This IMO would be to make them not only take cover but decide whether to partially expose themselves to return fire or fully hide behind cover depending on incoming fire in order to increase their survivability when under fire. Another defensive behaviour would be to make it so the ai chooses its battles more wisely (not attacking more than it can handle).

The AI couldn't go prone in that particular position as it would have resulted in a clipping problem with the wall. I agree it would be ideal if the AI duck-walked to change position rather than stand up and expose itself to direct fire.

I honestly think that the ai had space to go prone. It would have been a tight fit but the worst that would have happened is that his gun would have gone into the wall. And even if he didn't have enough space, he could go rotate himself like noubernou said or just taken a single step back (not run back five metres). But really this kind of thing is not what I am trying critisize the ai for. their movements will never be as precise as humans. for me they are precise enough.

Edited March 11, 2012 by -Coulum-

[Whirly 1]

Easily could have rotated then gone prone.

That would be senseless because then it would have been facing the wrong direction when in the prone position.

[noubernou 77]

That would be senseless because then it would have been facing the wrong direction when in the prone position.

So, what does that matter if they are prone and behind a wall thats taller than their ability to shoot over? The point is that they were going to readjust their position (for some reason) and instead of adjusting to a situation where they could go prone and move that way they stood up.

[Whirly 1]

The point is that they were going to readjust their position (for some reason)

The Blufor AI changed position to get a clear shot at the Opfor AI which had moved position.

---------- Post added at 04:05 ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 ----------

And I bet if the first shot hadn't impacted so close or had snapped by instead of hitting the ground, the ai wouldn't have reacted.

Your wrong, I'll make a video to show you.

[-Coulum- 35]

Ha! okay. but make sure that the shooter is a fair distance away so the ai doesn't react to the gushot but rather the sonic crack. but this is what I really want to see.

make them not only take cover but decide whether to partially expose themselves to return fire or fully hide behind cover depending on incoming fire in order to increase their survivability when under fire.

If you can show me an ai going prone behind a wall everytime you send a round or two by him (not impacting near him) and then after a few seconds popping back up to shoot until he is once again suppressed I will be speechless. I will then just blame all my problems on my shitty rig because this kind of behaviour has never happened to me.

And by the way, what do you mean by

This is how the AI react under fire if you are using the correct settings.

What setting are you talking about? just accuracy, spot distance etc. or are there other setting I don't know about.

Edited March 11, 2012 by -Coulum-

[Whirly 1]

Ha! okay. but make sure that the shooter is a fair distance away so the ai doesn't react to the gushot but rather the sonic crack. but this is what I really want to see.

y2BKxWcxqoc&feature=youtu.be

What setting are you talking about? just accuracy, spot distance etc. or are there other setting I don't know about.

skillFriendly=0.9

skillEnemy=0.9

precisionFriendly=0.7

precisionEnemy=0.7

Use ACE 2 mod and no other mods.

[maturin 12]

AI does not hear sonic cracks. And their gunshot recognition range is dismal unless you use ACE/Zeus/ASR

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Indeed they don't. But how can this be made, and made efficiently? My only solution revolves around creating a cylinder from start to finish of main trajectory (ignore bullet drop and ricochets, and only while bullet is supersonic), then use reveal (accuracy depends on distance to cylinder centerline, but never too much) on the shooter or evasion script to anyone within this cylinder volume. It would probably work in simple forms, but I'm worried about efficiency when firing at high rates. I mean, it's a hell of a lot of maths going on for each bullet.

Currently it only works on ammunition volume to reveal the shooter, and the bullet impact to cause a reaction - but these are easy to calculate in a game. Any other suggestions on how to make AI "hear" sonic cracks?

[Whirly 1]

AI does not hear sonic cracks.

Then why do the AI take cover when they are being shot at from a distance by silenced weapons?

Edit: Ah nevermind, I tested this out, they are reacting to nearby bullet impacts.

[.kju 3245]

The main problem is the way too excessive RMB zoom.

It makes it very easy to spot units at distance and to engage them easily.

Play without and you will see the difference.

Unfortunately AI had to be adjusted to keep up somewhat (not enough though).

This is completely the wrong approach - it also makes use of optics, binocular mostly meaningless.

On the tactical level flanking, or spotting and not engaging instantly no longer make sense.

OFP was far better in that sense. Try it and see how little RMB zoom there was in OFP.

[-Coulum- 35]

But how can this be made, and made efficiently?

Like always, VBS2 has found a way. There is a suppressed eventhandler that tracks when rounds have come near a unit. I think this would probably help wouldn't it? And I believe it is triggered not only for nearby impacts but also for bullets snapping by, because in vbs there are quite obvious suppression effects for the player when bullets are snapping by. I am really hoping that arma 3 gets something like this. there is a ticket for it here.VOTE!!!

besides that your idea of having a cylinder around each round sounds like it could work. what about having a large invisible hit box around each unit that triggers suppression behaviour if hit. I don't know what the ideal way to implement suppression would be but I think that it is possible and especially so if implemented by the developers from the start. I am fairly certain that if they implemented this feature deep in the game they could cut down on alot of the performance hit.

Also here is a thread where I actually attempted to script this. It actually worked but I gave up on it due to lack of scripting skill. But I am sure you have better scripting skills than I have, if you want to try and improve upon it.

@Whirly

I'm still waiting for this video.

If you can show me an ai going prone behind a wall everytime you send a round or two by him (not impacting near him) and then after a few seconds popping back up to shoot until he is once again suppressed I will be speechless. I will then just blame all my problems on my shitty rig because this kind of behaviour has never happened to me.

I know when I play, sonic snaps don't effect my ai, so either I am suffering from a bad rig... or your last video was showing the ai reacting to the gunshot, not the sonic crack.

skillFriendly=0.9

skillEnemy=0.9

precisionFriendly=0.7

precisionEnemy=0.7

I have all these setting at 1. do you find that setting their skill to .9 instead of 1 makes them perform better? I may give this a try tonight.

The main problem is the way too excessive RMB zoom.

It makes it very easy to spot units at distance and to engage them easily.

yeah the zoom is a bit much. I calculated it to have a magnification of two times. I think this should be scaled down to something like 1.5x. I believe the 2x was implemented so you had a realistic view but I beg to differ because

You can sit closer to or further away from your computer, eliminating and "realism" the view might of had

everybody has different sized monitors so tha also nullifies the "realism"

In real life things might be seen in this size but grass, and foilage is also rendered infinitly, people don't become very easily seen flashing black blobs of pixels in the distance, and camoflauge actually works.

Basically the 2x zoom is to overpowered for what the computer is able to render and it does result in unrealistic firefights. I would rather have unrealistic vision, and realistic firefights rather than vice versa.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Oh, there is a suppressed eventhandler? Guess they already have a solution then. I don't have issues with being able to see too far due to the "zoom" (which happens to correspond to the real world field of view, it's the "zoomed out view" that is arbitrary), but more the time it takes to set up so called well aimed shots. Which is pretty much instant. Shooting for accuracy on a controlled range, not being agitated or stressed out or fatigued, and certainly nobody shooting back or fearing for my life, I'm taking longer time between each well aimed shot than I have to do in the game. Which kills the whole idea of returning volume of fire rather than accurate fire. Look at youtube videos - how many shots appear to be well aimed? Compare to Arma2. We need better and more sway, and longer time to reduce that sway in order to deliver accurate shots. That forces us to get more intimate with the enemy (maneuvering element) while the bigger guns (CSWs, vehicles etc) keeps suppressing them. Currently everything is a distance infantry turkey shootout.

Effectivity of ammunition over distance is also a problem that further makes firefights shorter. If all I faced was turban wearing punks, then ok, maybe 5.56 is that effective at 200-400 meters. But not so much against a well equipped army man in body armor. For me, scarcely supplying 7.62 rounds for specialist slots (snipers, marksmen, platoon MGs etc) have no purpose, as everyone is killing like crazy from unbelievable distances.

As for FOV, it goes like this: The zoomed in state reflects the same FOV as you have against your monitor. Measure it. I'm guessing you have like a 30°-45° FOV depending on your monitor size and distance to it. This is the same FOV (approx.) as you have in the game. So a person at 200 meters appears the same size to your eyes in the monitor as he does on screen. The normal view (zoomed out) is arbitrary as it takes something like a 100° FOV and squeezes that into the same 30°-45° FOV you have on screen, making targets at distance appear far smaller than they really are. BUT, it improves spatial awareness and makes the game playable and enjoyable. This is only a concern in games that operates in natural large fighting distances, doesn't affect COD and those kind of games very much since everything is close quarters.

[-Coulum- 35]

Oh, there is a suppressed eventhandler? Guess they already have a solution then.

Yes. Now all they have to do is implement it in a3. Really hoping they do.

As for zoom I know the current is "realistic" but if losing that realism lead to more realistic firefights I would be willing to make the sacrifice. But thinking about it more I realize this would make optics even more over powered than they already are so ... Keep the current zoom factor.

the time it takes to set up so called well aimed shots. Which is pretty much instant. Shooting for accuracy on a controlled range, not being agitated or stressed out or fatigued, and certainly nobody shooting back or fearing for my life, I'm taking longer time between each well aimed shot than I have to do in the game. Which kills the whole idea of returning volume of fire rather than accurate fire. Look at youtube videos - how many shots appear to be well aimed? Compare to Arma2. We need better and more sway, and longer time to reduce that sway in order to deliver accurate shots. That forces us to get more intimate with the enemy (maneuvering element) while the bigger guns (CSWs, vehicles etc) keeps suppressing them. Currently everything is a distance infantry turkey shootout.

Good points. I totally agree. Right now it is to easy to quickly pop out of cover line up you sights and shoot off very accurate rounds. We need more sway. And not the crappy sway we have now where your sights suddenly jump from one random point on the screen to another but realistic smooth "figure 8" kind of sway kind of like in vbs2 or America's army. Adding this sway would slow us to decrease ai accuracy without having a huge advantage over them thus increasing firefight lengths even more.

Combine this sway with ai that actually gets suppressed (sorry can't stop talking about this) and players will find that it is more efficient to simple send quick inaccurate shots at the ai to suppress them rather than take a bunch of time to line up kill shots, resulting in more suppressive fire and maneuvring rather than "turkey shooting".