Will we ever have a real "city" in the ArmA Series?

[NKato 0]

I'm not talking these third-world cities.

Let's take a moment and examine one of my favorite entertainment properties:

Ghost In The Shell: Stand Alone Complex.



"Hi, I'm Tachikoma!"

GITS: SAC takes place in Japan, after the Nuclear World War Three and the non-Nuclear World War Four, centered on an offensive anti-crime organization that specializes in information warfare, unconventional tactics and generally kicking ass against anyone that threatens public order. It should come as no surprise that the majority of Section 9 are ex-Military.

Public Security Section 9. The smallest, most ass-kickingest Special Ops organization you'll ever know.

Public Security Section 9 has access to the following large-weapons arsenal:

Tachikoma Think-Tanks. (Today's equivalent of an M2 Bradley IFV)

A Tilt-rotor based on the V-22 Osprey, but using rotor technology based on Kamov's helicopters.

Armored Vehicles.

This should give you a good idea of what to expect in a day's work of an urban-domestic special ops unit.

PSS9's operations could be described as a hybrid between Rainbow Six: Vegas, SWAT 4, and other in-depth tactical games.

Now, for the pitch:

What if we had this kind of game experience, but set within a massive city, on an actual island? With ArmA 3's technology, I realize there will be technical and graphical limitations, but the idea is to offer replayability for players who like to play in small groups (10-12 players), which seems to be the most common playercount in servers in ArmA 2.

For example, if I were leading development for an expansion to ArmA 3, I would probably develop a fictional island based on the UAE, which would conceivably have a large metropolis on the island with plenty of desert around it - kind of like a oasis. I would develop that expansion to include fast-roping, breachable buildings, flashbangs, and other tools that urban special operations often have. The storyline of the expansion would focus on Counter-Terrorism Operations, focusing on investigating and shutting down a terrorism organization that has become entrenched on the island. (And I'm talking about old-school counter-terrorism, none of that big-army bullshit we've been seeing in the past decade!)

For Co-op multiplayer, there would be potential for the community to develop modes similar to Domination, except that it could be based on urban, domestic operations in that players on the team would go out to respond to random calls for assistance by local police, or respond to hostage situations, in addition to situations that would be otherwise difficult to handle for conventional police. Small-scale investigations into local crime syndicates could be another aspect of this co-op experience.

For TvT Multiplayer, well. There was a scenario someone offered up to me: "What if the enemy holes up in the upper floor of a skyscraper?" My answer? C4. And lots of it. And if we don't have C4? Use an attack helicopter.

I'll let your imaginations run rampant there on the possibilities for TvT multiplayer. A modern urbanized environment is not a forgiving place to be.

What do you think, folks?

P.S. I'm willing to put together a blueprint and a starter "design document" for modders when ArmA 3 launches, if there are people out there willing to tackle this challenge.

Edited January 28, 2012 by NKato

[Montanaro 0]

If I didn't know better, I would have thought this was bot spam.

[NKato 0]

If I didn't know better, I would have thought this was bot spam.

I take 15 minutes to write a thoughtful post, and this is the response I get?

Wow, some people here are really brainless, if not outright disrespectful.

[Montanaro 0]

I take 15 minutes to write a thoughtful post, and this is the response I get?

Wow, some people here are really brainless, if not outright disrespectful.

half of it being a random advertisement of a cartoon...

and technically this should go into the wishlist thread.

[NKato 0]

half of it being a random advertisement of a cartoon...

and technically this should go into the wishlist thread.

Technically, I already did that. This is more of an elaboration of the concept, with intent to provoke an in-depth discussion on features and expectations.

And you could call it an advertisement, I call it citing an example of which to draw inspiration from.

On top of that, Montanaro, you're not really contributing to the thread - can you at least kick-start some of those creative braincells and provide input on the ideas being presented, instead of the usual "internet canned response"?

Edited January 28, 2012 by NKato
Bolding the important part for the thread. In case you people really are that brainless.

[rye1 21]

What if we had this kind of game experience, but set within a massive city, on an actual island?

Relevant part.

[NKato 0]

Relevant part.

True. That is part of it, but I wanted to present an argument for a proper expansion that adds more gameplay features, not just some dinky $20 DLC island with the same old reused crap.

[Montanaro 0]

I don't see the connection. You didn't draw anything from the cartoon into your "pitch".

I see two distinct categories. Spam bot like advertisement, and a long anecdotal wishlist.

But maybe I'm just "brainless"...

[metalcraze 290]

There certainly will be mod tools. Everything is in your hands. Let nothing stop you from popping those freedom-hating terrists with big eyes.

And I'm talking about old-school counter-terrorism, none of that big-army bullshit we've been seeing in the past decade!

ArmA is about new-school big-army bullshit though.

[NKato 0]

I don't see the connection. You didn't draw anything from the cartoon into your "pitch".

I see two distinct categories. Spam bot like advertisement, and a long anecdotal wishlist.

But maybe I'm just "brainless"...

Let me clarify then. GITS takes place primarily in a large metropolitan city. Most of the activities undertaken by Section 9 involve investigations into threats against the State, preventing terrorist organizations and yakuza from getting out of hand, and of course, military/specops style operations involving raids, hostage rescue, and HVT capture/neutralization.

Some of these things we already do in Takistan and Chernarus, obviously, but in an urban, metropolitan environment, the dynamics drastically change. I want an urbanized version of the ArmA experience, with new tools and features that are often a staple of games like SWAT 4 and Rainbow Six.

GITS: SAC is the closest visual representation of that desired experience, as Rainbow Six and SWAT 4, as well as other "tactical" games are just too limited in scope with no real control by the user to define what scenarios you want to go through, as well as how the experience develops itself.

That is to say, the competition for the "urban metropolitan special-ops" category of milsim is decidedly too arcade-like, and lacking in open-world potential.

[rye1 21]

That would be cool in terms of expanding close quarters gameplay. SWAT 4 offered so much in so little. :p

[NKato 0]

That would be cool in terms of expanding close quarters gameplay. SWAT 4 offered so much in so little. :p

Although I still think SWAT 3 is "king" of the tactical games since SWAT 4 was not developed with the guidance of LAPD SWAT (as SWAT 3 was), apart from Rainbow Six 3 and its predecessors.

[rye1 21]

Well of course. :p I don't disagree at all there.

[Montanaro 0]

Well, we've had custom islands before with skyscrappers and the like.

It's not practical for numerous reasons.

But feel free to create a mod team and model/texture dozens of individual skyscrappers (exterior and interior). I'd love to see it, but it'll never happen.

[rye1 21]

If a part of Arma was based around an urban environment, wouldn't BIS adjust Arma so it WAS practical?

Problem: a lot of work, a lot of fixes, a lot of features, a lot of changes. But it's for the better. Remember the money making words: "Arma with good CQB".

[metalcraze 290]

The problem here is that it's hard to take OP's suggestions seriously when half of his post is an advertisement for a japanese cartoon which he somehow wants to use as an example for ArmA (and doesn't do even that).

It's like teaching soldiers how to fight using Call of Duty MW example?

I actually don't quite understand what OP wants to achieve here?

First he goes on how most servers are 10-12 players (which isn't true) - so BIS should cut out stuff for people who want to play bigger/outside operations (big-army bullshit) in favour of R6/SWAT4 gameplay? Or am I not getting something right here?

Edited January 28, 2012 by metalcraze

[NKato 0]

Well, we've had custom islands before with skyscrappers and the like.

It's not practical for numerous reasons.

But feel free to create a mod team and model/texture dozens of individual skyscrappers (exterior and interior). I'd love to see it, but it'll never happen.

That's precisely why I said it would have to be developed as an expansion under Bohemia Interactive, so that they could tweak the graphics engine for better visual rendering optimization of the intricate environment.

And I would imagine that you would only need to develop at most 30 different types of buldings, 10 high rise (25+ floors), 10 medium rise (15-25 floors) and 10 low-rise (5-15 floors) buildings. Unique buildings serving as landmarks as well as unique settings with full internals (halls, buildings, elevators) would be excepted from this list.

Think of developing the city like Grand Theft Auto 4. GTA4 doesn't let you enter most buildings higher floors, with only the first two or three floors accessible in most low-rise buildings. In the ArmA 3 expansion concept, for mid-rise buildings, you would have a large lobby and an express elevator to the penthouse levels (5 fully modeled upper floors). For the high-rise buildings, you would have the lower 5 floors modeled, the middle 5 floors modeled, and the 5 upper floors modeled, complete with elevators and two to three service ladders.

There are also rendering workarounds that Bohemia could employ in the graphics engine that would reduce overhead by not rendering the polygons on the opposite side of the POV of the user - a technique that was used in Dragon Age II to improve the visual quality and technical requirements of the game. For example, let's say you're standing on one side of a high poly jet, looking at it. Under this rendering technique, the other side of the jet that are not directly observable by the player are not rendered in real-time. This is impractical in actual application on a real, moving jet in the game, but it is practical for stationary objects like trash cans, skyscrapers, docks, and other static objects.

Edited January 28, 2012 by NKato

[Montanaro 0]

If a part of Arma was based around an urban environment, wouldn't BIS adjust Arma so it WAS practical?

Problem: a lot of work, a lot of fixes, a lot of features, a lot of changes. But it's for the better. Remember the money making words: "Arma with good CQB".

"adjust"

More like find investors who will finance an expansion of BIS in order to hire a whole new team to rewrite the engine and create practically a whole new game.

[NKato 0]

The problem here is that it's hard to take OP's suggestions seriously when half of his post is an advertisement for a japanese cartoon which he somehow wants to use as an example for ArmA (and doesn't do even that).

It's like teaching soldiers how to fight using Call of Duty MW example?

I actually don't quite understand what OP wants to achieve here?

First he goes on how most servers are 10-12 players (which isn't true) - so BIS should cut out stuff for people who want to play bigger/outside operations (big-army bullshit) in favour of R6/SWAT4 gameplay? Or am I not getting something right here?

Not suggesting we cut out the big-army stuff. The ArmA engine already offers the technical infrastructure to make what I am suggesting a reality. The problem is the technical barriers in developing the actual environment itself.

Besides, as I stated, the GITS is meant to provide a backdrop to the suggestion. If you watched the series, and had experience in playing Rainbow Six, you would immediately see what I am trying to get at here.

If we wanted large-scale games centered around small ops, that's possible through the inclusion of support staff roles, such as pilot, intelligence operative (for using the city's observation systems, like cameras), and so on.

"adjust"

More like find investors who will finance an expansion of BIS in order to hire a whole new team to rewrite the engine and create practically a whole new game.

But if you insist, you'll need to lower your expectations and be prepared for a "megacity" with 2 different skyscrappers about 20 stories tall copy and pasted all over the map.

You don't get anywhere by lacking in ambition, drive or passion.

If you demand it from BIS, they can deliver. They can't keep giving us the same tired old crap of big-army stuff in the field. We need the nitty-gritty stuff of CQB in modern cities, if the franchise is going to last past this decade.

[Montanaro 0]

sigh...

you remind of the guy who wanted BIS to create their own processor...

[metalcraze 290]

BIS does authentic stuff - they don't do GITS/R6's like stories.

And any class can be in the game.

GTA4 is not a good example since its level of detail is very low and what's the point in having a huge city with only 1% of it being "reachable"?

There are also rendering workarounds that Bohemia could employ in the graphics engine that would reduce overhead by not rendering the polygons on the opposite side of the POV of the user

And why do you think they don't use culling? Every engine uses that today unless written by amateurs.

[NKato 0]

sigh...

you remind of the guy who wanted BIS to create their own processor...

Excuse me for five minutes while I grab a glass of fruit-mixed rum, laughing all the while at that guy's expense...

BIS is a software developer, not hardware. I think they have the talent to make this proposal a reality. We have large low-rise cities in Sahrani in the original ArmA, we have Chernogorsk in ArmA 2 with a few mid-rise buildings...I'd say we're working our way towards that objective. Now, if only BIS would take the great leap forward.

---------- Post added at 06:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:44 AM ----------

BIS does authentic stuff - they don't do GITS/R6's like stories.

And any class can be in the game.

GTA4 is not a good example since its level of detail is very low and what's the point in having a huge city with only 1% of it being "reachable"?

And why do you think they don't use culling? Every engine uses that today unless written by amateurs.

I know we're talking authentic stuff. That's why I'm not suggesting we get spider tanks in the game, or thermo-optic camouflage (unless that actually happens), and so on.

What I wanted to illustrate by using GITS as an example, is the small-ops tactics being used, and the setting they're used in.

Consider this for a moment. Is it all that unlikely that special ops will have access to surveillance cameras within a hotel where hostages are being held by a terrorist group? The answer is no. They would have access to that intelligence. They would have access to blueprints. They would have the ability to plan ahead.

I'm talking about the idea of scaling down all of ArmA's featuresets to accommodate the reality that goes with intensive urban, modern-city operations in a domestic environment.

I understand your concern about the issue of having a percentage of an entire city being accessible. That's why I proposed a median solution instead of limiting it severely or trying to overreach the limits of the technology itself.

I'll reiterate what I said earlier in regards to the median solution: Instead of just having the first floor accessible in every building, this is what would be used.

In the ArmA 3 expansion concept, for mid-rise buildings, you would have a large lobby and an express elevator to the penthouse levels (5 fully modeled upper floors). For the high-rise buildings, you would have the lower 5 floors modeled, the middle 5 floors modeled, and the 5 upper floors modeled, complete with elevators and two to three service ladders.

Edited January 28, 2012 by NKato

[Squint 0]

If you watched the series, and had experience in playing Rainbow Six, you would immediately see what I am trying to get at here.

Let's assume I haven't. Now what?

This isn't a Ghost in the Shell or Rainbow Six community, so having to rely on the audience's knowledge of either isn't a good idea. Nobody's going to do research just to understand what you're trying to say.

You want big cities in Arma 3. That's the meat of it, and that's fine. Plenty of other folks do too! Big grid-based cities would be awesome! All the rest of what you wrote, however, is fluff, and it only serves to muddy your message. Your original post could have been one paragraph long.

[NKato 0]

Let's assume I haven't. Now what?

This isn't a Ghost in the Shell or Rainbow Six community, so having to rely on the audience's knowledge of either isn't a good idea. Nobody's going to do research just to understand what you're trying to say.

You want big cities in Arma 3. That's the meat of it, and that's fine. Plenty of other folks do too! Big grid-based cities would be awesome! All the rest of what you wrote, however, is fluff, and it only serves to muddy your message. Your original post could have been one paragraph long.

You have a point. I just wanted to try to use GITS as an illustrative example, since it's been on my mind a lot lately about how it would be interesting to have an ArmA 3-Ghost In The Shell hybrid game.

Basically, with a big city, and added tools and AI dynamics, small-squad operations similar to Rainbow Six would be possible.

[Montanaro 0]

You say you want a massive city. Very few games give you an authentic free roaming massive city that allows you access to all buildings.

You are talking a multi-year project that would be going in a completely different direction than OFP and ARMA.

The best your going to get is a few skeleton sky scrappers from modders plastered over an island, with AI running through the walls and falling to their death.