Advice on some simple maneuvers

[lorgarn 1]

Hello everyone,

since there are many experienced players and even real life pilots in this forum I would like to ask for some advice on some standard maneuvers which I seem to fumble almost any time. Perhaps some details about me: The only background I have so far, is from 'simulation' games about 10 years ago. I have read though the Flight dynamics thread with great interest and started reading the rotorcraft flying handbook, linked in that thread. I am playing on trainee (so this is medium difficulty as i understand) so far. I am using a (hopefully) decent flightstick, the Logitech G940. I am playing take on helicopters for about a week now.

1. Getting into forward flight from hover

I start from a stable hover, trying to get into forward movement. I push the cyclic just a bit and release it. The helicopter starts moving forward, everthing is fine untill I reach about 40 km/h. Then the helicopter gets into a hard right spin, which I counter with the left pedal. After a short while I finally get into a stable forward movement, usually a few degrees further to the right than intended. This is sufficient to get my helicopter on the way, but it feels wrong and unstable. I am experiencing this effect stronger in the medium and heavy helicopter, than in the light one. I feel almost no change of heading when raising or lowering the collectiv, which is due to the trainee difficulty I suppose. I have tried raising the collective while getting into forward movement as well as simply having a sufficient altitude and leaving the collectiv as it is.

Following another aircraft

I have huge troubles adjusting my speed to that of the craft I am following. Canges to my forward speed require huge movements with the cyclic, changeing the attitude of the helicopter in a huge way. I have watched almost every video in the videos section and alle those pilots seem to be able to change the forward speed of their helicopter without huge attitude changes. I seem to lack any feeling on how much attutude change results in what speed.

Landing without taking bloody ages

I am unsure how much downward speed the helicopter can take. Most of the time I try to avoid the sound the gear makes when touching down fast. But together with the increased effectiveness of the collective near ground level this sometimes takes really, really long. I have tried to touch down from a slight forward movement, which works better and feels more stable then a hover, but this is only working in open places, and in the light helicopter, for I can not find my landing point in the closed cockpits of the medium and heavy helicopter.

The mystery of hovering

No really. Without the auto hover function, I would not have completed the landing tutorial. I am getting used to it that far, that I can land the light helicopter, when I have a really large landing space, like Tacoma international. No luck on the other helicopters so far. I have no idea, how people get used to this without auto hover, or even keep a real life helicopter stable. I am sure, that much of that is simply experience and practice, but I seem to miss somthing important. I have tried to hover over a huge storehouse in my first attemps and noticed not even being over the same house after a while. I really need some hints on that one.

Any idea or comment on this is greatly appreciated, as well as any suggestions how to specifically train those situations. If it helps and some people are willing to work this out with a almost total noob like me, I am willing to join or host multiplayer sessions. Perhaps someone can correct me, from the movement of the helicopter or the ciclic/collective/pedal movement in the cocpit.

Kind regards

Lorgarn

[nightsta1ker 10]

I like to tell my students to imagine holding a pendulum from their hand. Start it swinging in a circle or in some random fashion and then... here's the tricky part... Stop it from swinging. You would need to OPPOSE the centrifugal force by moving your hand in the same direction so that you are centering the pendulum under the point of suspension. Using the cyclic in a helicopter is kind of like that. They seem a bit unpredictable, and to a degree they can be, they are very sensitive to both outside input (the air around them and it's interaction with other objects, the ground, and the rotor-system) and from pilot input. But once you get a feel for what the helicopter is GOING to do, you can start countering it before it happens. This means that the pilot is constantly making small adjustments. The SMOOTH pilot is constantly making small adjustments milliseconds before they need to be made. Small control inputs are critical. Find your balance point in a hover (the place that's close to where it needs to be for the helicopter to stay centered over one spot). This may not be the center of the stick, as the push from the tail-rotor moves the helicopter to the right. Another thing to remember is that power changes mean a change in all the other controls. Raising the collective means more torque, so you need more left pedal, which means that the tail rotor is putting out more thrust, which means more drift, which means the pilot needs to add left cyclic to counter the right drift. If you reduce collective pitch the opposite happens. Understanding exactly what your controls are doing, and how they relate to each other is important, but more important than that is practice and muscle memory.

I hope this helps.

[hon0 10]

Welcome Lorgan !

Is the auto-trim function enable in your difficulty setting? You should try to fly without it. Your helicopter will be more "free" and you'll understand better and faster these behavior than Nightstalker just explain above.

I made a verry little training mission to show how I train my HOVER and SOFT landing. Hope you'll enjoy ! I train on these building since the Beta of the game hihihi ;)

Be sure your game is patched on 1.03 ! Landing is totaly different since this patch.

It's a pleasure to read you again Nightstalker :)

Edit : To practice acceleration and brake I suggest you to fly just over the runways so you can follow the line while trying to keep the same altitude without the risk to hit a tree ;)

The SMOOTH pilot is constantly making small adjustments milliseconds before they need to be made.

Must have a negative ping in brain :D

Edited January 25, 2012 by hon0

[lorgarn 1]

Thanks for your remaks,

I will try to comment on them as good as I can.

I like to tell my students to imagine holding a pendulum from their hand. Start it swinging in a circle or in some random fashion and then... here's the tricky part... Stop it from swinging. You would need to OPPOSE the centrifugal force by moving your hand in the same direction so that you are centering the pendulum under the point of suspension. Using the cyclic in a helicopter is kind of like that. They seem a bit unpredictable, and to a degree they can be, they are very sensitive to both outside input (the air around them and it's interaction with other objects, the ground, and the rotor-system) and from pilot input.

You have been using this analogy in the flight mechanics thread, and it seems quite logical to me. Using a little pendulum I also feel stopping the pendulum ist a bit difficult, but so far I fail to apply this mechanic to the helicopter. Perhaps that is because, from the helicopter I am viewing from the position of the little pendulum weight, so to speak.

But once you get a feel for what the helicopter is GOING to do, you can start countering it before it happens. This means that the pilot is constantly making small adjustments. The SMOOTH pilot is constantly making small adjustments milliseconds before they need to be made. Small control inputs are critical. Find your balance point in a hover (the place that's close to where it needs to be for the helicopter to stay centered over one spot). This may not be the center of the stick, as the push from the tail-rotor moves the helicopter to the right. Another thing to remember is that power changes mean a change in all the other controls. Raising the collective means more torque, so you need more left pedal, which means that the tail rotor is putting out more thrust, which means more drift, which means the pilot needs to add left cyclic to counter the right drift. If you reduce collective pitch the opposite happens. Understanding exactly what your controls are doing, and how they relate to each other is important, but more important than that is practice and muscle memory.

Well I am glad that to some degree one gains a certain knack or understanding to this by practice. Might take a while though ^^. I have tried some maneuvers on all three difficulty settings, and they feel a lot different. I think I am using the pedals totaly wrong. I can use them to spin the helicopter in hover, ok. I have to use them, when torque changes, mostly through a change on the collective, but I have an urge to counter the turning of the helicopter with the collective, so I guess I know what I have to do, I just need to train myself to do it. But I am completely clueles, when to use the pedals in forward flight, especially as I described when starting into forward movement from a hover.

Is the auto-trim function enable in your difficulty setting?

I am using no auto-trim in any difficulty setting. I have used the auto-hover in the training missions, and the campain. But I think I will never learn to do hovering, if I continue this way so I started practicing it. But I am far from being able to to something like picking up a slingeload without it so far. It really feels difficult.

I made a verry little training mission to show how I train my HOVER and SOFT landing. Hope you'll enjoy ! I train on these building since the Beta of the game

Uhm, thanks but...well, I so far I am not even getting down in one piece anywhere near the construction site, so at the moment I am completely clueles, how to even hit, those little landing spots. It is really hard for me, to have any visual confirmation on my position. I do not posess a head tracking device. I have finally found a niche configuration to rotate the view on some buttons on my flightstick, but still most of the time the cockpit seems to be in the way and on the other hand, I have to look back and forth, to keep the landing spot and my instruments in view (on expert at least). A question regarding landing: There are 4 kinds of touchdown:

1. Nice and slow, with no sound at all

2. A bit faster with a little bumping sound

3. A hard bump, with sound and some kind of alarm beeping (helicopter seems to be ok, though

4. Crashing / Flipping over.

I am regarding 3 and 4 as false and 1 as right. What about option 2? And how much forward speed is acceptable when touching down?

On the plus side, controlling speed feels a bit better. When I adjust my view, when bringing the nose up to reduce speed, I can keep track of my surroundings and I just does not feel like 'roling on my back' any more. I tried to fly along the runways of the airport. I can control my speed a little better now. Still no avail in following another helicopter ^^.

Thanks for your help so far. I will keep practicing, and looking forward to any more tips, advices and comments.

Kind regards

Lorgarn

[zentaos 10]

keep practicing :)

it's the most solid advice for helicopter simulation.

If you find yourself getting frustrated... take a break, go read the rotorcraft handbook, or have a beer, or do some yoga...then come back and practice some more.

[jedra 11]

I concurr with what everyone else says. Practice is they key. I still can't keep a stable hover for more than a few seconds, but I can land every time almost anywhere.

Also, I think it is important to fly in expert mode. All the 'helpers' in the other modes actually hinder you more than help. For the first couple of weeks I was playing with these modes and got extremely frustrated. It was only when I switched to expert did I start to get a proper feel for the helicopter.

[hon0 10]

Also, I think it is important to fly in expert mode. All the 'helpers' in the other modes actually hinder you more than help. For the first couple of weeks I was playing with these modes and got extremely frustrated. It was only when I switched to expert did I start to get a proper feel for the helicopter.

+1

You can touch the ground at 100km or even more without damage the helicopter or yourself. But for that you have to be verry precise with the collective and pedals. It's a bit as a slide..

You should try to build a free track :cool:

http://www.free-track.net/english/

[nightsta1ker 10]

The collective should only be used for power application, or up an down movement. Cyclic should control your position on the ground in a hover, airspeed in forward flight and rate of closure to the intended landing point. The pedals are used to counter torque, to turn the helicopters nose in a hover, and trim the aircraft in forward flight (by trim I mean keeping the center of gravity straight down, if you are out of trim, you will slip or skid, especially in a turn). Turning the helicopter in forward flight is done by banking, like an airplane. Use our cyclic to maintain desired airspeed and lateral cyclic to control your bank/turn rate. Keep in mind you are generating less lift in a turn so will need a touch of extra collective to stay level and keep from losing airspeed.

[lorgarn 1]

Thank you all, for this next round of usefull comments...

I totally agree, that I am lacking much practice, and I can not expect to master the controls from one day to another. And I do not feel frustrated in any way so far. There ist one multiplayer game called 'capture the ships' where I try to find other people, so I have to play on expert settings. Still switching a bit back and forth with difficulty in my local games. Expert feels hard though. Without autohover I cant even land, with autohover the helicopter feels like in beginner mode. So I eather fly around and do nothing or I paticipate in the game with autohover and feel like cheating and not learning anything.

You should try to build a free track

I am really, really wanting to get my hands on the Kinect, when the adaption for the PC will be out. The SDK ist very substantial as I have seen it, and people have already started creating awesome game controls with it for different games. So I am quite sure, something like head tracking will be constructed with it. So I will just wait a short while untill I have one of those. I totally agree, that a head tracking device ist very, very usefull.

The collective should only be used for power application, or up an down movement.

Understood.

Cyclic should control your position on the ground in a hover, airspeed in forward flight...

Understood.

...and rate of closure to the intended landing point.

I am afraid I am not getting this.

The pedals are used to counter torque, to turn the helicopters nose in a hover, and trim the aircraft in forward flight (by trim I mean keeping the center of gravity straight down, if you are out of trim, you will slip or skid, especially in a turn).

I seem to get a feel for torque in hoversituations, caused by changes on the collective. I am experiencing a hard right turn as soon as I start moving forward, which does not seem to cease. My only chances so far are to keep on the left pedal all the time (which is a bad thing, as I have read) or to let my helicopter make the turn to the right, gaining speed and correcting it afterward with the cyclic.

Turning the helicopter in forward flight is done by banking, like an airplane.

Yes, after the situation described above, I think I understood that as well.

Again, thanks for any of your advices. Looking forward to meet anyone online and learning a new thing or two.

Kind regards

Lorgarn

[lorgarn 1]

Hi everyone,

I wrote a reply on Friday I think, but it did not appear so far. If this ist due to something one of the moderators were not happy with, a short PM would be great, so I know, what I did do wrong.

So again in short: I am looking for a head tracking device, since I feel it is very usefull, looking for something special at the moment, before I try the freetrack thing.

I feel glad, that most people agree, that practice is most important.

I am not quite sure, what nightsta1ker means by 'rate of closure to the intended landing point' and 'keeping the center of gravity straight down'.

Kind regards and have a fantastic week

Lorgarn

[zentaos 10]

read the rotorcraft flying handbook. there is a link to a PDF on these forums i just can't remember where.

nightsta1ker is referring to the common misconceptions of flight control.

like in an airplane on landing approach. speed is controlled by pulling back or pushing forward on the controls and altitude is controlled by the throttle.

that's backwards from what most people think that have not had any formal flight training or read aerodynamic theory in flight training publications.

rate of closure is the speed at which you get closer to your intended landing spot in speed and height.

[nightsta1ker 10]

Yes, so the pedal input. You will need some left pedal until you get to much higher speeds. I do not think the current build of TOH models the effectiveness of the tail rotor in forward flight quite correctly yet. In most helicopters at cruise speed (whatever that speed happens to be for that model) the pedals are usually pretty close to neutral. This is because as the helicopter is moving forward, the main and tail rotors become more efficient, the more efficient main rotor needs less power, so less torque is produced, and the more effective tail rotor also needs less pitch to counter the exisiting torque. This acts as a double whammy and the pilot needs much less left pedal with forward speed increase. However, you will only notice this as a gradual change as you gain speed. You will need to keep left pedal in AS NECESSARY to keep a straight track. As I said, understanding the theory is only part of the equation. Muscle memory is the rest. Some students (particularly older ones, 30s and up) have a hard time grasping that they need to FLY the helicopter. Make it do what you want it to do. It takes some students DOZENS of hours to get the hang of hovering. Some students learn about it almost instantly. Some have issues transitioning from the hover to forward flight, and back to a hover again. The dynamics of the hover and forward flight are very different, and the in between zone is a bit tricky with lots of fluid changes happening that the pilot must adjust for.

From the hover: Left pedal to counter torque, slight left cyclic to counter drift. Start pushing the cyclic forward and raising the collective (just a touch) to keep from settling, maintain your heading with pedals as necessary, control your lateral drift with your cyclic. Continue to accelerate by pushing the cyclic forward gently, at around 15-25 knots you will experience a momentary pitch-back sensation, this is the rotorsystem becoming more efficient, you will also notice a pedal wobble, just adjust as necessary to maintain your ground track and push the cyclic forward to counter the "bump" (you may not notice this at all... and then you might... rapid accelerations do not yield such a bump, but slower ones do). As the helicopter passes through 40 knots gently apply aft cyclic and start a cyclic climb. Your rotor system should be efficient enough that you don't need any more collective, in fact, you might need to reduce it! Maintain your heading with pedals as necessary and use your cyclic to control your airspeed and your collective to control your climb and descent rate. Turns are made by banking, keep your pedals where they were before you entered the turn.

Approach to the hover from forward flight: The goal is to terminate both your forward speed and your descent in a three to five foot hover over your intended spot. A ways out (depending how high you are) lower the collective smoothly so that you have established a 500 Foot per minute rate of descent toward your target spot. Use aft cyclic to slow down smoothly, and at a rate that you will terminate your forward speed over your spot. This is called controlling your rate of closure as Zentaos said. As you approach your spot, try to keep it in one place on your screen. If it is going down, you will overshoot it. If it is going up, you will undershoot it. Use your collective to do this. You must coordinate your descent rate with your speed reduction or you will end up 3-5 feet over your target, and then fly right over it. This takes lots of practice. A tip: On short and final approach (below 40 knots and 300 feet AGL) pick a visual reference point BEYOND your actual intended landing spot, otherwise you will undershoot your spot (the eye tries to keep it in sight when you really need to put it underneath you). As always, you will need to maintain your heading with pedal. As you slow down, your rotors become less efficient, you will notice this quite a bit when you get below 15-25 knots and you will suddenly need ALOT of left pedal. Just go with the flow. Use your cyclic to control your lateral drift in the approach and pedal for heading. Forward cyclic for airspeed and collective for your climb and descent rate.

Practice, practice, practice.

And have fun!

[Sylle 1]

Thanks Scott for the detailed step-by-step explanation in your write-up above!

It's amazing how much I learned about helicopter handling just by reading posts like these on this forum and the hovercontrol website.

It would interesting to know what you think of the FM changes of the beta version BIS released a few days ago.

I remember your input on FM stuff of TOH has been huge in the past...

Cheers,

Sylvain

[phineusbright247 1]

hi guys.....firstly thanx for all the advice just started the using the simulator.......was wondering if there is a way to fly the helicopter like we do in war games.......i would just do it in the games but there the machines are less detailed and thus easy and not so realistic......

being specific i want to learn two maneuvers a 90 degree tail stand like the jets do and 360 degree side flip........help would be appreciated....

[lorgarn 1]

Hi,

Nightsta1ker, thanks for that very detailed description. I will practice that. Feels good to have some kind of 'plan' how to approch those maneuvers. I will play around with that and drop a line when I get a better feeling for the helicopter.

Kind regards

Lorgarn

[nightsta1ker 10]

hi guys.....firstly thanx for all the advice just started the using the simulator.......was wondering if there is a way to fly the helicopter like we do in war games.......i would just do it in the games but there the machines are less detailed and thus easy and not so realistic......

being specific i want to learn two maneuvers a 90 degree tail stand like the jets do and 360 degree side flip........help would be appreciated....

What do you mean by "360 degree side flip"?

[Mick_Oz 1]

OK! I been playing around with the choppers for sometime in FSX and then this came along. LOVE IT! Finally a flight sim dedicated to choppers! YEAH!!!

Now, my questions are as follows;

1. On lift off, Auto Hover is on. So, I presume, for best results in forward flight, switch Auto Hover off, then get into forward flight. Correct?

2. When approaching a landing spot, how far from the landing spot should one begin to slow the chopper down?

3. Does one switch the Auto Hover back on while approaching the landing spot, or get into a hover first over the landing spot and THEN touch down, OR just touch down without turning Auto Hover back on?

I love choppers! But the choppers in FSX never had all these things to take into consideration. Take On Helicopters ROCKS! :o