Autorotation training: you've got to be kidding

[OMAC 254]

There is no question that the autorotation training is totally brutal. But as this is a required skill in the campaign (career), it must be mastered.

And thanks, Sickboy, for the advice on the controllers.

Edited November 1, 2011 by OMAC

[nightsta1ker 10]

I might be wrong here but I'm thinking the soft tail rotor effects that people are complaining about may in fact be in their controller setup or their game options.

I'm wondering now if they had their auto-trim turned off in their game difficulty settings.

When I first started in expert mode and auto-trim was off, I had to use quite a bit of rudder input to keep the heli straight.

But after when I put on auto-trim, now hardly any input is needed for lift-off.

I'd say on the heavy heli, it needed at least half way of full travel of rudder input just to keep the heli from turning at almost full collective climb.

I don't really see how that's modeled wrong. Clue me in.

Autotrim!?! Holy &*&*)#&*)*!!!! How did I miss that???? I need to go try this. I bet that is why Panther and I are having a completely different experience with the pedals.

---------- Post added at 03:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 AM ----------

Autotrim!?! Holy &*&*)#&*)*!!!! How did I miss that???? I need to go try this. I bet that is why Panther and I are having a completely different experience with the pedals.

Excitement short lived. Changing the Autotrim setting did almost nothing for my pedal experience. Pedals are still weak. I still find that I do not need left pedal in a hover like I should, and the extreme rolling tendency is still there.

One thing that did help, the cyclic controls seemed much smoother to operate.

I need to make some in game videos so I can show what I am talking about. Maybe later in the week.

[OMAC 254]

The problem I am having (Expert) on the safe altitude part, is that I glide in over the checkerboard, keeping my speed within listed parameters (listed as 80-150 kph, usually less than 100, around -5 vertical, sometimes slower descent), staying level, collective close to full down, and then I hear that I should flare, hit reverse cyclic, and crash about 1 second later. When he says to flare, I'm already so close to the board that I have very little operating room. Should I flare before he tells me to (at a slightly higher altitude)? It seems that he tells me to flare less than 10m above the board. :confused:

Since we are at "safe altitude," how can I crash? What do I crash on? If I crash on the board, is it meant to represent the ground? If so, that doesn't seem like safe altitude to me. What is the purpose of the "safe [unsafe] altitude" segment if you crash anyway? At least landing on the ground you can use your altimeter, as you know the ground is 0 AGL! Who knows what altitude the board is at, and thus at what altitude you should flare? Unknown. This segment is like flying without an altimeter; never a good idea.

I assume the glide task will be complete, and flare prompted, at a certain altitude, but that key altitude is utterly unknown, and apparently unknowable; you just have to "feel" it by judging how far above the board you are, or by waiting for the flare command, which appears to come too late.

I think this training segment is ill-designed. I think much more detailed info should be provided by the instructor and/or a temporary training hud that will show graphically if you are within certain flight parameters. The general concepts of glide/flare/level/collective/land are easy to understand, but it is not at all clear what I did wrong when I crash. If you fail due to insufficient forward speed, it tells you, but when you crash, no other info is provided so you can learn from your mistake. Perhaps my tail hit the ground due to too much aft cyclic? Was I going too fast? Descending too rapidly or too slowly? Was I not level enough? Who knows?

Another idea for the "safe-altitude" (ha) segment is that instead of crashing and having to wait 10 seconds to restart, you are alterted that you have failed, another checkerboard appears a km away, and you try again. It gets quite tired restarting so often.

It doesn't look like flying on Trainee with autotrim enabled will help, as the reasons I fail do not appear to be trim-related issues.

At least I can get over the board now, using a little collective (even though he said to set it to zero; misleading).

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

to OP, don't listen to the instructor, when you get vertically close to the checker board say 40ft or so start your flare to arrest your descend and level out your helicopter and apply some up collective to slow down the descend. once your skid reaches the checker board you should complete the mission.

[zentaos 10]

I can't say too much, because the instructor had the controls and we did the exercise during my first hour of training, for those having trouble:

are you trying to set up a glide and transition to a run-on landing?

a typical auto does not allow for a hover before landing you should aim for a short landing run of 20 ft or so.

the only time my instructor did an auto with no forward speed was during HIGE maneuvers.

someone with more time chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

[4 IN 1 0]

If I am correct the checkerboard is about 650ft high, so 700 should be the mark we are looking for to start reduce speed if I am correct, after that its about slowing down without bleeding too much speed. Do not trust everything said and show on screen.

[OMAC 254]

Do not trust everything said and show on screen.

This is disappointing and worrisome indeed. I think the training segment needs work; BIS should have released it in the beta to get our comments then. Thank you both for the tips! :)

[Xptical 10]

I'm currently playing on Trainee. The main reason for doing so is that the gauges are completely un-readable on expert. Unless there is some way of getting the easy-read gauges back on the screen in expert...

But I digress.

I know about keeping my airspeed between 50~150 and my rate of descent at -5. But wouldn't you really use the rotor speed indicator to manage your fall?

Why can't we see things like engine RPM, head speed, etc easily? Even if I pan my view over there, the cockpit gauges are virtually unreadable...

[4 IN 1 0]

I'm currently playing on Trainee. The main reason for doing so is that the gauges are completely un-readable on expert. Unless there is some way of getting the easy-read gauges back on the screen in expert...

But I digress.

I know about keeping my airspeed between 50~150 and my rate of descent at -5. But wouldn't you really use the rotor speed indicator to manage your fall?

Why can't we see things like engine RPM, head speed, etc easily? Even if I pan my view over there, the cockpit gauges are virtually unreadable...

Light class cockpit have the pilot seat at the port side(like most common fix wing) and co-pilot/passenger on the starboard side(where common copter have their pilot seat there, unlike the "MD500 ish" light class), which means most of the important instruments are on that side for the pilot to read.

[OMAC 254]

Unless there is some way of getting the easy-read gauges back on the screen in expert...

Yes there is, and I've been using it occasionally for training purposes. Edit the expert difficulty settings and enable "Allow Full HUD Info." Then use rctrl+h to enable/disable it.

That brings up an interesting question. On the full hud, there is an indicator for collective (moving blue bar along right edge of vertical speed gauge). On the real instrument panel of the helis, which gauge shows the collective level?

In general, one big thing missing from ToH (at least I haven't found it) is a detailed description of the instrument panel gauges. Not the HUD ones, the real gauges. Most are self explanitory, but some are not, especially on medium heli (and probably heavy, but I've only flown that a couple of times and don't know). There should be a screenshot of the panel annotated with info about each gauge, and perhaps other buttons and controls. How are we supposed to know what all those controls/gauges do without searching the web or something?

[4 IN 1 0]

There is no gauge to show collective level, the 2 major gauge for that porpuse is the torque and rotor/engine RPM gauges that gives the pilot the idea how much collective the main rotor have.

[wildone_106 10]

typical half arsed implementation. I just like flyin around Seattle though..

[OMAC 254]

There is no gauge to show collective level, the 2 major gauge for that porpuse is the torque and rotor/engine RPM gauges that gives the pilot the idea how much collective the main rotor have.

Yes, I've noticed the torque change a lot when I change collective, but that gauge is no substitute for the awesome HUD gauge that shows the collective level. Since no such collective indicator exists in "real life" (on the inst. panel), that HUD element is kind of a cheat (that's why the hud is disabled on expert by default - a good thing).

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

I can't say too much, because the instructor had the controls and we did the exercise during my first hour of training, for those having trouble:

are you trying to set up a glide and transition to a run-on landing?

a typical auto does not allow for a hover before landing you should aim for a short landing run of 20 ft or so.

the only time my instructor did an auto with no forward speed was during HIGE maneuvers.

someone with more time chime in and correct me if I'm wrong.

actually most autos don't have to be run on landings unless you're in high altittude low air density environment. all the autos i've seen done at my airport have been flare to zero airspeed and gently touching down with remaining rotor rpm.

---------- Post added at 03:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 AM ----------

I'm currently playing on Trainee. The main reason for doing so is that the gauges are completely un-readable on expert. Unless there is some way of getting the easy-read gauges back on the screen in expert...

But I digress.

I know about keeping my airspeed between 50~150 and my rate of descent at -5. But wouldn't you really use the rotor speed indicator to manage your fall?

Why can't we see things like engine RPM, head speed, etc easily? Even if I pan my view over there, the cockpit gauges are virtually unreadable...

actually the engine rpm (tachometer) and VSI (vertical speed indicator) and airspeed indicator are all legible if you know how to read them. google for a picture of each of the above and get familiar with how they work and what the needles indicate.

---------- Post added at 03:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:14 AM ----------

Yes there is, and I've been using it occasionally for training purposes. Edit the expert difficulty settings and enable "Allow Full HUD Info." Then use rctrl+h to enable/disable it.

That brings up an interesting question. On the full hud, there is an indicator for collective (moving blue bar along right edge of vertical speed gauge). On the real instrument panel of the helis, which gauge shows the collective level?

In general, one big thing missing from ToH (at least I haven't found it) is a detailed description of the instrument panel gauges. Not the HUD ones, the real gauges. Most are self explanitory, but some are not, especially on medium heli (and probably heavy, but I've only flown that a couple of times and don't know). There should be a screenshot of the panel annotated with info about each gauge, and perhaps other buttons and controls. How are we supposed to know what all those controls/gauges do without searching the web or something?

for piston helicopters it's called a manifold pressure guage for collective, for turbine it's torque i believe.

---------- Post added at 03:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:20 AM ----------

There is no gauge to show collective level, the 2 major gauge for that porpuse is the torque and rotor/engine RPM gauges that gives the pilot the idea how much collective the main rotor have.

actually you are incorrect about engine/rotor rpm giving you any indication of of how much collective you are pulling. engine/rotor rpm are kept at a constant by your governor. they only change when governor can't keep it stead in high altittude, low air density environment or when there's an engine failure or when you just start/shutdown the engines.

[OMAC 254]

for piston helicopters it's called a manifold pressure guage for collective, for turbine it's torque i believe.

actually you are incorrect about engine/rotor rpm giving you any indication of of how much collective you are pulling. engine/rotor rpm are kept at a constant by your governor. they only change when governor can't keep it stead in high altittude, low air density environment or when there's an engine failure or when you just start/shutdown the engines.

Excellent info. Thanks! :) It's great to have a few real pilots around who know the real deal!!!!!!

[armored_sheep 56]

Since no such collective indicator exists in "real life" (on the inst. panel), that HUD element is kind of a cheat (that's why the hud is disabled on expert by default - a good thing).

Well in real you have collective lever stick, but users with keyboard dont, so this user interface part was made mostly because of that.

Disabling HUD does not make thinqs more real, it will make game only harder.

You have to imagine that 3D gauges are not that well readable on screen like in real cockpit, even if you are equiped with TrackIR. Other things like pilot vestibular system and depth perception with two eyes are also missing in game so I do not consider additional user interface to be a cheat ;)

[OMAC 254]

Well in real you have collective lever stick, but users with keyboard dont, so this user interface part was made mostly because of that.

Disabling HUD does not make thinqs more real, it will make game only harder.

You have to imagine that 3D gauges are not that well readable on screen like in real cockpit, even if you are equiped with TrackIR. Other things like pilot vestibular system and depth perception with two eyes are also missing in game so I do not consider additional user interface to be a cheat ;)

Thanks heavens! Yes! I LOVE the HUD (incredibly well designed and intuitive), but I try to use it as little as possible on Expert, so as not to be a wuss. ;) You make me feel better for occasionally using it on Expert.

You hit the nail on the head in adding the collective indicator to the HUD for kb/mouse players!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have no idea how appreciative I am for your consideration of us lowly, controller-less (and TrackIR-less) souls.

One of the best things about BIS games is that on harder difficulty settings, they are unforgiving and singularly brutal. Take Trial By Fire, Heat, PMC02:Reaction without thermal scope, and Payback, not to mention beating the gold time for any Time Trial (I beat gold time on Cool Runnings yesterday by 3 sec on Expert ). So you can feel really good when you complete them, like you accomplished something. It would thus be a nightmare if BIS made some decision regarding difficulty settings or controls that could end up killing gameplay for some. You haven't so far, and have perfectly balanced the settings to satisfy users of any skill and experience level. There is something there for everybody, even those who are equipment-challenged!! :)

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

so i've made two videos in game demonstrating the autorotation to a general area. the first video is still uploading but the second one where i do an 180 autorotation is ready.

[4 IN 1 0]

Ah well, I must had a brain fart there:o

[whirlywizz 10]

MD500Enthusiast, just to correct your earlier statement, the 'manifold pressure' gauge used in piston powered helicopters is NOT a direct reflection of the amount of collective you are using, it is purely an indication of the current amount of engine power being used to maintain the given rotor rpm. This gauge is not constant with the amount of collective being used as temperature, pressure and air density effect both the engine's performance and rotor efficiency. Also the amount of weight/payload you are carrying has a direct effect on the position of your collective lever:- More weight = more collective and thus a higher manifold pressure to achieve same effect, as such it cannot be used to determine required collective levels.

---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

Also, has anyone tried to do a full engine off auto yet (not just idle)?, as the last time I tried I failed miserably due to being unable to maintain rotor rpm as the flight model doesnt seem to be accurate enough to handle this situation.

---------- Post added at 11:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 AM ----------

Oh and I dont understand why everyone is asking for a collective gauge (other than those using only a keyboard of course) as your rotor rpm gauge is used for this purpose whilst auto rotating.

Rotor Rpm decreasing - lower collective.

Rotor Rpm increasing - increase collective.

Most helicopter pilots maintain a rotor rpm between 103% and 107% whilst auto rotating, depending on helicopter type and situation.

For example, you can extend a helicopters engine off 'glide slope' by decreasing rotor rpm to 92-94% whilst increasing your forward speed over normal autorotation speeds, obviously you should increase rotor rpm back to normal before flaring.

Edited November 3, 2011 by whirlywizz

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

MD500Enthusiast, just to correct your earlier statement, the 'manifold pressure' gauge used in piston powered helicopters is NOT a direct reflection of the amount of collective you are using, it is purely an indication of the current amount of engine power being used to maintain the given rotor rpm. This gauge is not constant with the amount of collective being used as temperature, pressure and air density effect both the engine's performance and rotor efficiency. Also the amount of weight/payload you are carrying has a direct effect on the position of your collective lever:- More weight = more collective and thus a higher manifold pressure to achieve same effect, as such it cannot be used to determine required collective levels.

---------- Post added at 11:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

Also, has anyone tried to do a full engine off auto yet (not just idle)?, as the last time I tried I failed miserably due to being unable to maintain rotor rpm as the flight model doesnt seem to be accurate enough to handle this situation.

---------- Post added at 11:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 AM ----------

Oh and I dont understand why everyone is asking for a collective gauge (other than those using only a keyboard of course) as your rotor rpm gauge is used for this purpose whilst auto rotating.

Rotor Rpm decreasing - lower collective.

Rotor Rpm increasing - increase collective.

Most helicopter pilots maintain a rotor rpm between 103% and 107% whilst auto rotating, depending on helicopter type and situation.

For example, you can extend a helicopters engine off 'glide slope' by decreasing rotor rpm to 92-94% whilst increasing your forward speed over normal autorotation speeds, obviously you should increase rotor rpm back to normal before flaring.

you are correct, but my meaning is that the manifold pressure gauge has a direct link to your collective. it gives you a measurement of how much collective you can pull due to temperature, air density etc. in essence you can basically use the manifold pressure gauge as measurement of how much collective authority you have at any given condition. of course you can pull more collective and exceed the performance envelop but that is unwise and sometimes fatal.

---------- Post added at 11:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------

[/color]Also, has anyone tried to do a full engine off auto yet (not just idle)?, as the last time I tried I failed miserably due to being unable to maintain rotor rpm as the flight model doesnt seem to be accurate enough to handle this situation.

---------- Post added at 11:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 AM ----------

on another note if you watch my autorotation demostration video which is in this thread a couple of posts above yours it clearly demonstrates both throttle set to off and autorotation is very manageable. i've also been doing them in the light helicopter which requires more finess and a little trick at landing but it is also doable. if you like we can get into multiplayer and i can demonstrate.

[whirlywizz 10]

Your understanding of what the manifold pressure gauge is for is incorrect, it is not directly linked to the collective, it is a reference for the amount of engine power available as I stated earlier.

If your trying to do autorotations correctly then you need to be using the rotor rpm as a gauge and maintain the rotor rpm through the descent until flare and landing.

I am a real world helicopter pilot with thousands of succesful autorotations so thanks for the coaching offer but im sure I can do it if indeed it is possible in game :) (no offence)

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

Your understanding of what the manifold pressure gauge is for is incorrect, it is not directly linked to the collective, it is a reference for the amount of engine power available as I stated earlier.

If your trying to do autorotations correctly then you need to be using the rotor rpm as a gauge and maintain the rotor rpm through the descent until flare and landing.

I am a real world helicopter pilot with thousands of succesful autorotations so thanks for the coaching offer but im sure I can do it if indeed it is possible in game :) (no offence)

i understand how the manifold pressure gauge works, i am myself a helicopter pilot in real life and if search md500enthusiast on youtube you can see a couple of videos of me doing full down autos in r44 and hovering autos.

so you're telling me that raising and lowering the collective while the engine is running doesn't make the needle move on the manifold pressure gauge? from my experience flying the r22 and r44 it does and if so then the collective has a direct relationship with the manifold pressure gauge.

i don't think you understand that i dont disagree that the manifold pressure is a measure if available engine power and the collective is what changes the pitch of the blade but you fail to understand i'm simply saying they work hand in hand.

the only measure of how much collective authority is available is measured by the manifold pressure gauge. say during a given day the you have 22" of MCP and maybe 24" of TOP. if the manifold pressure gauge doesn't tell you how much collective you can pull then why not just pull all the way up collective during take off and ignore the manifold pressure gauge all together? but in real life we keep a close eye on the needle in the manifold pressure gauge to monitor how much collective authority we have, so i stand by my statement that the only guage in the cockpit to show how much throttle authority you have is the manifold pressure in a piston helicopter.

i have no doubt you're a competant helicopter pilot but remember this game hardly represents how a real helicopter handles. you can look at the rpm gauges til the sun goes down but they won't make any sense if you're comparing it to a real helicopter. also if someone is willing to give you their hard learned knowledge why not just take it, and like i said there's a trick to it with the light helicopter? instead you'd be willing to crash over and over again and come to the forum asking if it's even possible because you can't seem to get it work. besides it's more of an invitation to play together in multiplayer and have some fun! =)

Edited November 3, 2011 by MD500Enthusiast

[nightsta1ker 10]

I can understand where both of you are coming from. This is turning into a pissing contest, so lets put this to rest.

The manifold pressure gauge is your indicator for how much engine power you are using.

It does have a direct relationship with the throttle and the collective. Generally speaking, the more pitch you need to fly, the more power is required by the engine to maintain rotor RPM, so this is why you see the MP gauge rise with an increase in collective. However, you can also see changes in MP without touching the collective. These changes can be due to air density changes or due to moisture or ice or anything else that may affect the pressure of the air in the manifold. It is not an indication of torque or even power available (you should know your power available for that density altitude before you fly), but an indication of how much power you are using at that moment.

I know you both understand this. I can see correct statements in both of your responses. The MP Gauge is an engine gauge. However, in helicopters with a working governor (R22, R44 as examples) the collective is the only control the pilot has over that aspect of engine performance. In helicopters without a governor, both the throttle and the collective have a direct influence on the MP.

Edited November 4, 2011 by nightsta1ker

[MD500Enthusiast 10]

here's a video demonstration on full engine off auto for light helicopters