AI reaction to suppressive fire improvement idea

[Fireball 16]

The CIT ticket brought up an idea though, how AI general reaction to suppressive fire maybe could be improved "the cheap way", without more processing power than Danger mode currently uses. As you write, in Danger mode, AI currently _does_ make use of cover somewhat, e.g. trees, houses and walls. So, while the source of fire is known they could just find the next cover of any sort (let's say, within 50-100m) and hide of the opposite side of the known enemy contact/fire, thus the visibility needn't be checked expensively for terrain cover.

So if a squad is surprised by enemy fire on semi-/open field, this could also be used to improve #6471 even more; have them sprint to the next cover of ANY sort, hide and have them *pinned* if suppressive fire continues into their direction.

This might improve AI behaviour significantly and gives the impression of fear.

---------- Post added at 07:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:47 AM ----------

Comment by twisted:

This "cheap way" seems pretty damn good. And it would help with making the AI react in a more human way to incoming fire (what volume does it take to be defined suppressing fire?).

On the issue AI knowing which cover would provide perfect cover - I think that humans wouldn't know if cover is perfect or not. the instinct is just hide behind something in the opposite position from which the direction sounds of shooting are coming from. Certain kinds of cover would take priority over others instinctively as well as well as their proximity.

is cover perfect? it is if no AI is getting shot. this does raise a bigger issue on AI battlefield awareness that I really hope Arma3 causes a revolution in. like noticing if the AI right next to them has just been shot or not - which would be a good indicator of whether cover really is safe or it's time to GTFO.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Fireball

[mr.g-c 6]

You have deleted my Text in the CIT, could you please at least add the ideas and conversation here in this Topic?!

There were some interesting statements by Suma, what AI still can't do and what would help improving other annoying AI-Issues aswell ;-)

[dmarkwick 261]

Generally I see quite good AI searching for cover. As suggested in the CIT ticket, the problem seems to be staying in cover yes? I wonder if group logic could help, if AI see that members of the group who leave/flank/move are killed, than it reduces the probability of them deciding to move. If they're not being hit or targetted (as assertained by proximity of impacts) then they might choose the logic branch that keeps them safe. Once safe, then more complex scripted behavior can possibly be scheduled to make a further decision?

Dunno. Scripted behavior can be useful, but only when the FSM has had it's turn, so this stuff needs to be intrinsic behavior.

At the risk of making a suggestion that sounds cheaty, I might suggest that some logic could be built around how much the firer can see, just to fill in the AI gap as Suma has suggested exists, that the AI cannot reliably discern cover.

On a more esoteric nature, I could also suggest that the AI use some sort of theory-of-mind, in that it "imagines" itself to be in a new location, and at some points between the current and new location, and make calculations to see if they could spot the firer/enemy from those positions. It may be possible to locate the hiding AI's viewpoint at those locations briefly and see if they return positive sightings, that way they're "imagining" the path and how dangerous it could be.

But, that sounds like too much work for wrapping up ArmA2 cover logic, maybe for ArmA3?

[metalcraze 290]

When you are being suppressed you don't run around, you fall to the ground and crawl somewhere - which AI does although way too slowly. Like when it moves, bullets pass very close to AI, AI stops... Bullets still continue to fly. AI stands there, waits for a second and only then goes prone.

Reproducible all the time.

How it should be: AI runs, gets suppressed, falls to the ground and continues on his way prone.

[dmarkwick 261]

When you are being suppressed you don't run around, you fall to the ground and crawl somewhere - which AI does although way too slowly. Like when it moves, bullets pass very close to AI, AI stops... Bullets still continue to fly. AI stands there, waits for a second and only then goes prone.

Reproducible all the time.

How it should be: AI runs, gets suppressed, falls to the ground and continues on his way prone.

Script-lag. Doesn't exist, of course, but that's what it is :)

[Fireball 16]

You have deleted my Text in the CIT, could you please at least add the ideas and conversation here in this Topic?!

There were some interesting statements by Suma, what AI still can't do and what would help improving other annoying AI-Issues aswell ;-)

Here is your text:

Well if the AI does not know what is providing cover in their environment, what was the sense of implementing a half-working suppression-function then?

I mean, what is so hard to program for you, that when AI is receiving heavy fire, that they simply spread a bit out, get the "f-word" down on their bellies *immediately* and do search for some cover behind trees or stones or whatever, from which they then return fire (what they already CAN DO with the bounding-overwatch feature) ? (example given in open terrain).

In Cities they simply should avoid to pointlessly run directly into the direction of the shooter(s) that suppresses them, instead run around the next house an return fire (if it makes sense) by leaning around a corner.

Their current non-reaction to incoming fire is simply not acceptable. You advertised the product with that capabilities during pre-release press-events and whatnot.

Please do something, even if something simple like i described it 2 sentences above.

And here Suma's answer to you:

In the context of this topic it looks like a rant. This topic asked that units stay in cover when suppressed. You ask the very opposite, that the units spread when fired at. Currently units are unable to distinguish if they are in cover (suppressed) or in the open (being fired at), therefore they are unable to decide effectively what to do next.

All other chatter which I edited out was effectively redundant.

---------- Post added at 05:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:46 PM ----------

As far I can tell, to effect "suppression", the crucial issue is to identify suppression by AI. Just going down and move along the floor is not always the best idea, specially if - hopefully any time soon - the artificial damage reduction for prone units is removed.

Maybe you could add up simple elements for a check if a unit is suppressed:

- Behind cover (house, tree, wall)

- Enemy contact

- Fire coming from that enemy in a certain rate/intervall towards the AI unit

Disadvantage with the simplistic method:

- We assume that the AI is in full cover, so it stays put there; if this doesn't hold truth in many cases, we'll have upset players thinking the AI is stupid if it doesn't move away from the unprotected position

This would be key for a successful suppression detection.

[maturin 12]

Your idea sounds exactly like the Hide/Find Cover command. The AI already knows how to hide behind things, albeit you don't get to choose which unit they hide from (I made a suggestion topic about this once), and they aren't perfect at it.

And as always, possible improvements fall flat because they run up against other problems. The usual complaint is that you can't suppress movement, only firing. Suppressed AI are just as willing to run around, and your solution calls for a lot of scripted running. Perhaps it would be best to make suppressed AI obey the three second rule when running for cover, crawl the rest of the way, and then stay in that cover until more confident. Another problem is that once the AI is on a run towards cover, they never stop to shoot. This is one of those little-known problems that seems small but actually explains for the majority of the gap between ArmA AI and "smart" FPS AI who actually kill the player quickly at close range.

And I would be keenly interested to hear anything Suma said about the AI.

[Fireball 16]

And I would be keenly interested to hear anything Suma said about the AI.

It's all in the CIT ticket, mentioned in the original post.

[maturin 12]

Well that's sort of depressing.

If I was them, I would make the AI run for any cover object, and put it between themselves and the enemy with that most recently fired or is most threatening. That would only require a single LoS check.

[Voyage 34 10]

Well, making them not return fire would be already a good (and cheap) step forward: after all that's what suppression fire is intended for, right?

next cheap step could be simply avoiding the "pop out of cover" movement, just to make them stay in cover a little more. With that we could have already a somehow-raw-but-decent suppression model..

EDIT: written in the CIT, this post seems to be really old..

Edited January 19, 2012 by Voyage 34

[metalcraze 290]

Suppression fire works when it comes to AI firing back. They do keep firing back (and it's only fair with current rules - bullets passing near the player won't stop the player from shooting) - but their precision is crap and they won't hit you no matter what they will do.

Which is the same effect a human gets when suppressed in ArmA.

The problem is that "no firing back" is not a solution because that will mean blocking the trigger button for a human player as well - which will hurt the game instead of improving it.

Suppression produces stress (which ArmA tries to simulate, but I think it needs more blurred vision instead of a white screen flash with which you still can see where to shoot well) , but it doesn't paralyze.

I think this can work well - of course it should be the same both for AI and humans:

When a soldier comes under suppression:

- the vision gets blurred for a bit

- aim shakes (like it does now)

- the movement slows down. Meaning adjusting your aim and moving around should be slower because you are stressed.

Optionally if suppression is too hard ( > X bullets pass by) the soldier should fall to the ground into a prone stance - be it human or AI

Edited January 19, 2012 by metalcraze

[maturin 12]

Yep, suppressed AI have very low accuracy and rate of fire.

One of my main gameplay wishes is that nearby sonic cracks would make your avatar jolt slightly, enough to throw off a careful shot, but not mess with you too much. Then it could be extended to the AI.