Can CQB not be rubbish this time?

[skooma 10]

Sorry for the harsh title but CQB has never been a strongpoint of BIS's.

Fighting in buildings is so frustrating because the game doesn't support it very well. Forget using bots indoors.

Since modern warfare consists mostly urban combat they would do well to significantly improve their approach to indoor combat. Arma 3 could be the perfect game if they could just get this part right.

[Daniel 0]

CQB has improved a lot with each successive title. You can probably expect some improvement given the new animation system and overall system requirements.

[That guy 10]

you are thing of modern COUNTER INSURGENT warfare, phase 4. this seems to be balls out force on force phase 3 warfare

[SSG J. Switch 10]

ST Movement mod made a significant improvement for movement in tight quarters. But let's face it, the game not being "smooth" in general was the real problem with CQB, where you have to be able to move/react quickly in tight spaces, and the A2 engine just never cut it for close quarters. Collision detection is dreadful.

[skooma 10]

you are thing of modern COUNTER INSURGENT warfare, phase 4. this seems to be balls out force on force phase 3 warfare

They still use buildings for cover in phase 3.

[Trauma.au 10]

Well I'm hoping that the improvement to the animation system and collition detection will fix CQC this time around, would be a massive boost for the franchise for sure.

[maturin 12]

Keep the weapon collision, but make weapon lowering and raising automatic. That way if you try to stick your M107 through a doorframe, you don't get stuck, shot and killed; you just can't aim.

[Trauma.au 10]

Or when you fall like 1 foot when running down stairs too fast and can't move for a sec when you land.:mad:

[maturin 12]

Or when you fall like 1 foot when running down stairs too fast and can't move for a sec when you land.:mad:

Now that you mention it, you shouldn't be able to move immediately after you hit the ground. You have to absorb the force of the fall first.

And now more deaths from falling 10 feet.

[Trauma.au 10]

Now that you mention it, you shouldn't be able to move immediately after you hit the ground. You have to absorb the force of the fall first.

And now more deaths from falling 10 feet.

Well that depends on your momentum when falling/landing, take hurdles for example.

[maturin 12]

Well that depends on your momentum when falling/landing, take hurdles for example.

I'd like to see a guy in full gear run hurdles. :p

I know that's not your point, but most of the time we find ourselves falling in this game, it's in a situation where we would not be able to hit the ground running.

Like stepping off a roof or sliding down a rock face.

[Splintert 10]

The problem with CQC is that mouse/keyboard is not smooth enough to simulate such quick reactions. In real life, you have more directions of movement, ingame, you get 8 directions using WASD plus leaning, and facing using the mouse. It's too clunky to integrate special moves using different keys on the keyboard and impossible to create the needed motion using the current control system.

[SSG J. Switch 10]

The problem with CQC is that mouse/keyboard is not smooth enough to simulate such quick reactions. In real life, you have more directions of movement, ingame, you get 8 directions using WASD plus leaning, and facing using the mouse. It's too clunky to integrate special moves using different keys on the keyboard and impossible to create the needed motion using the current control system.

I disagree here. The problem isn't the keyboard/mouse, it's the game engine. Collision detection and how smooth the game is running.

Look at other games specifically centered around CQB... go all the way back to Rainbow Six, Rogue Spear, Counter Strike, COD... hell look at L4D and Brink. Those are all essentially CQC/CQB style engagements.

If the game was smooth, you can just turn up your mouse sensitivity and have no problems... having a high mouse sensitivity will negate most of the lack of freedom of movement with your head relative to your body.

[Splintert 10]

I disagree here. The problem isn't the keyboard/mouse, it's the game engine. Collision detection and how smooth the game is running.

Look at other games specifically centered around CQB... go all the way back to Rainbow Six, Rogue Spear, Counter Strike, COD... hell look at L4D and Brink. Those are all essentially CQC/CQB style engagements.

If the game was smooth, you can just turn up your mouse sensitivity and have no problems... having a high mouse sensitivity will negate most of the lack of freedom of movement with your head relative to your body.

But think how those engines are designed: for CQC. ArmA is designed for engagements that are much more likely to occur at 100m minimum. In those games, the longest range is usually 100m.

[DeclaredEvol 10]

I think the real question is, will the AI be intelligent enough to stop running around in circles and get with the program. Or possibly will the AI be smart enough to be able to fight in a building without standing in a position. Another would be interesting if the player could operate in close quarters... and last of all... HOPEFULLY every building will be intensified... or every building would be enter-able or even destructible. It is definitely important to have more cover than just trees and rocks! :D

Operation Arrowhead made good work with the houses, it is definitely still a great game!

---------- Post added at 08:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 PM ----------

Another thing, the old Infiltration 2.9 game was fun. It was for Unreal Tournament 2000 edition, and was like ArmA 2 at the time. The game was very fun to play in CQB + out doors... maybe this game will adopt that sense of realism too.

[Great George 10]

I think that CQB is the weakest point of ARMA games. Which of course I consider the best series ever. Even better than Cannon Fodder.

Any way. I think there are two things.

1.First is that the AI has no f... idea how to move in buildings. We're now in the times of robots being able to navigate in real environment. It would be nice if my AI mates in the game were able to find the door...

2. Second thing is something no one mentioned before (I think). The soldiers in Arma (and in other games - I love you BIS anyway!) are fearless. Which is let's say not exactly realistic. In Warfare module I think BIS created something similar to Close Combat game - I know you young people have no idea what I'm talking about. But in my times... Hovewer creating this they forgot about one thing people are ussualy afradi to die which is quite common on the battlefield they sholud take this into consideration.

[Trauma.au 10]

I think the real question is, will the AI be intelligent enough to stop running around in circles and get with the program. Or possibly will the AI be smart enough to be able to fight in a building without standing in a position. Another would be interesting if the player could operate in close quarters... and last of all... HOPEFULLY every building will be intensified... or every building would be enter-able or even destructible. It is definitely important to have more cover than just trees and rocks! :D

Operation Arrowhead made good work with the houses, it is definitely still a great game!

I personally have no hope at all for any AI... ever. So I know I wont be disappointed, frustrated when I'm silly enough to try and use them yes, but that's my fault.

[Splintert 10]

Very true. the soldiers feel like mindless robots, following orders mindlessly even if it means sure death. I don't mind that for some games, but a simulator should be different. However, if people were actually afraid of dying (the AI), the pathfinding and general AI would have to be much more intelligent to balance it.

[Ish 11]

Well I'm hoping that the improvement to the animation system and collition detection will fix CQC this time around, would be a massive boost for the franchise for sure.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

I disagree here. The problem isn't the keyboard/mouse, it's the game engine. Collision detection and how smooth the game is running.

Look at other games specifically centered around CQB... go all the way back to Rainbow Six, Rogue Spear, Counter Strike, COD... hell look at L4D and Brink. Those are all essentially CQC/CQB style engagements.

If the game was smooth, you can just turn up your mouse sensitivity and have no problems... having a high mouse sensitivity will negate most of the lack of freedom of movement with your head relative to your body.

That's because these games greatly simplify the character collision to essentially just a capsule. They ignore collision with weapons, and typically ignore momentum and other physical forces. As a result, it's smoother, but far less realistic (for example, you can turn/reverse on a dime, and still hold your weapon perfectly still). Animations also play no role in collision detection, since usually a single, seperate collider is used for the entire character. As a result, characters have the profile of an upright hotdog and movement can be smoother (nothing jutting out like limbs or weapons).

Splintert is more or less correct. ArmA attempts to more accurately model character movement (weapons have collision, animations change the collider shape and inroduce momentum) but as a result the controls have to become much more complicated. This lack of control (which is also limited by the animations) makes controlling the characters very robotic; you can usually only do one or two movements at a time (ex: walk left + turn torso right, stop, turn, walk straight + look up), where IRL you can combine movement of various parts of your body more fluidly.

So while you can simplify the system to make it smoother, it will also result in less realistic movement. To sum it up, there's no perfect solution for CQB in a realistic game like ArmA. Unless we were able to wear mocap suits and record our actual movement in realtime while playing, we have to make do with simplifications and abstractions.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Big Dawg KS