Realism of tanks...

[unpronouncable 0]

ok.. I've looked around in the forums, even using the search utility but i havent found a single post refering to the unrealism of tanks in operation flashpoint. Maybe I just suck at finding the right treads or maybe no-one cares... anyway.. here goes...

When it comes to the tanks in OF they really arent realistic at all... I have some examples... I dont know if anyone out there cares.. but I do.. it would be cool to have some of these things fixed in a later patch... (i still have the original version so maybe it has been fixed) in that case.. please let me know.. ;-)

Tactics:

In a tank platoon you never ever have such tight formations as there always are in OF.. exept if the terrain only allows short spacing between tanks.. the tank commanders in OF can almost reach out and touch eachother for cryin out loud... In real life tank combat this is really really bad because you dont want the enemy to locate your whole platoon that easy.. + a single platoon could pass the enemy without even noticing it as every gunner in the platoon sees basically the same area in their sights.. this is especially bad if you are defending... You should atleast be able to order the distance between your platoon in OF.. maybe something like "Close", "Normal", "Broad" ?

Armour/Protection:

sure.. the m1a1 is a pretty good tank.. good protection.. but.. NO TANK IN THE WORLD can take one (or more) T-(55,72,80) sabots in the front, side or back without having major damage to them and probably getting killed... the only area that may be capable of a direct hit is the front of the turrent... You might refer to what happend in the gulf war, when the american crew's could find rests of enemy projectils stuck in their front armour and didnt even know they got hit.. these where at ranges >3000 meters... you barely encounter enemy tanks at more than 500 meters in OF... often they are about 100-200 meters from you...

there also is an other issue (i dont know the english word for it).. but basically.. when your tank gets a hit that doesnt even penetrate the armour, the crew doesnt just shake their heads and begin fighting back... it will take atleast (well.. no one really knows) a couple seconds to 60 seconds for the crew to get their act together again... (+ wiping their asses after shitting and pissing in their pants (yes, this is a normal reaction of being in combat)) this ofcourse depending a bit on how experiensed and well trained the crew is...

What i'm trying to say is... the kind of tank battle's you get in OF is not even close to realistic... if you put two tanks up on eachother you always get a kind of behaviour when they are standing 20 meters from eachother and shooting one projectile after another til one dies... In real life when a tank gets a hit it should fire its smoke grenades and reverse into cover (depending on situation)

War experiense say that in 8 out of 10 encounters the tank that fires the first round wins... not the tank with the strongest armour...

Technical issues:

As far as i know.. the M1A1 didnt have image intensifiers but IR senors? I dont think any of the tanks in OF had image intensifers in the gunners scope? i'm pretty sure the russians had IR sensors on their tanks even in 1985... totally unrealistic... actually i dont think the choppers and/or the airplanes had image intensifiers either.. especially not the gunners...

Another thing... the tank is a M1A1.. not a M1A2.. whats the deal with the commander being able to zoom in and out of the terrain? the commander in the M1A1 doesnt have a independent sight, as far as i know?

The loading times of the main gun are far to long.. a good loader loades the main gun in about 3-4 seconds.. probably longer in rough terrain...

The co-ax machine gun can hardly be fired 500 rounds in a row without being overheated...

The strenght of the M1A1's engine is under dimensioned... VERY under dimensioned.. its much much stronger in real life and doesnt have any problems climbing hills as it has in the game...

There is a couple of 100 more things i could whine about.. ;-) but it seems unrealistic for me to ask for everything from this game that really isnt a true tank sim... but it got pretty close for not even trying... ?

[Tex -USMC- 0]

well, just because you cant find them, doesnt mean they arent there. Pretty much every single aspect of your rant has been covered before, and the general consensus has always been that BIS made the sacrifices in the name of playability and fun. If you want ultra realistic tank combat, re install Steel Beasts (which I love, btw )

[IceFire 0]

I don't think it would really hurt if they made tanks more realistic though.

Like the tanks engine, and the armor, and the cannon power.

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ok.. I've looked around in the forums, even using the search utility but i havent found a single post refering to the unrealism of tanks in operation flashpoint. Maybe I just suck at finding the right treads or maybe no-one cares... anyway.. here goes...<span id='postcolor'>

Its been discussed before hundreds of times.

[S_Z 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ May 18 2002,18:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't think it would really hurt if they made tanks more realistic though.

Like the tanks engine, and the armor, and the cannon power.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree…I don’t think OFP would be less fun if they made the tank part a bit more realistic…

And I think it would be great if they made the AI tank commanders a bit smarter too…It would be fun if they used some tactics and not just try to ram the other tank like they often do now.

[unpronouncable 0]

ok.. sorry I couldnt find previous tank related posts... I suck ok!? now you dont have to tell me again that it's already been discussed before, like you've already did twice...

anyway... I think its a big drawback of the game when tanks face eachother... did they even look into tank tactics while making this game? they really dont behave like real tanks.. they behave like idiots.. going with full speed right into the face of the enemy (like 2 feet away) and then just stand there firing and firing agan... this is kinda sad cus it could be really cool if they would act more combat.. like taking alternative firing positions and moving in the terrain like someone with a brain, not driving in to eachother, not hitting every tree you can see.. (you give away your position when you do things like that) But I guess you have to be a real tank commander to realize how bad the tank simulation part of this game really is..

Tex... steel beasts is a good game, yes.. but not as good as OF could be if they fixed the tank bit... too much realism isnt fun in a game (hey.. its suppose to be a game! But it woudnt kill me if the tank tactic basics were true to real life... but.. no matter how they would do it I guess there's always going to be someone that is unhappy about it anyway...

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">now you dont have to tell me again that it's already been discussed before, like you've already did twice...

<span id='postcolor'>

Correction-I only posted it once.I didnt pay attention to what Tex posted.I just read what YOU posted then i replyed with out reading what every one else said.

[unpronouncable 0]

thank you for sharing that.

[SKULLS_Viper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">thank you for sharing that<span id='postcolor'>

No problem.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

So, tanks could be more realistic. But so could helicopters. And LAWs. and NVGs. and LGBs. and TOWs. and explosions. and sounds. and inventories. and small arms. and .50 caliber machine guns.

The point is, if you make everything realistic, pretty soon you you have a dry, hard to get in to simulator. Then whats the fun in that? Besides, the islands are too small to have really good tank battles

[S_Z 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ May 18 2002,23:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Besides, the islands are too small to have really good tank battles<span id='postcolor'>

The island from â€OFP internals†is great for tank battles. I downloaded a realistic tank mod (don’t remember the name) and made a big tank battle…it was pretty fun. A bit hard to take out tanks from long distances in OFP though…you have to aim high above the enemy tank.

I don’t think tanks should be as realistic as in SB but I think it would be more fun if they were simulated and acted just a bit more realistic. As it is now I don’t use tanks at all (unless I really have to)…I really hate when I have to be a commander, the driver doesn’t  listen to me at all

[unpronouncable 0]

Tex.. too bad everyone doesnt use that argument and have your attitude.. then we'd all give a fuck about trying to make anything better...

there is difference in trying to make a BORING SIM GAME vs trying to get an REALISTIC ACTION GAME...

as I said earlier : "too much realism isnt fun in a game (hey.. its suppose to be a game! But it woudnt kill me if the tank tactic basics were true to real life"

by the way.. I managed to find some previous posts about tank realism.. some of them very amusing ones.. for example:

seems alot of ppl think the driver cant be directed.. they press the left button, the driver makes a quick left turn and then goes straight forward again.. hahaha... try HOLDING the left turn button... btw.. this is the best way directing the driver... AND most realistic.. in a real life tank you dont say "left left.. more left.. a little bit more left.. oh.. right... no.. left... some more left.. there!" In a real tank you say: "left!... (the driver starts turning left til you say:) "..forward!" ... Actually, when you have to direct the driver like this you're probably just a really bad tank commander... or your driver sucks...

Another really amusing thing was this guy saying he wanted a "ride in back" option for the tanks since the loader spot is empty in the game... lol

and another guy said its unrealistic how the trees doesnt slow the tank down... eh.. excuse me.. where talking 60 tons moving at 40mph... trees sure didnt slow my tank down... the only unrealistic thing about trees is that the driver seems to be doing everything to hit them...

[MHSJROTTCADET 0]

so basically you want a game thats less realistic then Steel Beasts, and more realistic than OFP......

make it yourself

[IceFire 0]

Actually I agree. The Tank AI in the game SUCKS!!

When I am leading a platoon of tanks, they are constantly bumping into eachother.

I think that they should give eachother ALOT more space.

That would make it alot easier to manuever.

Tanks are meant to fight over long range, so why not space them out a lot farther?

Then they have a better view and control of the entire terrain.

Also, the gunner sucks at hitting targets.

That should be improved a bit.

Also, I am sick of driving up hills at a crawl. It would be faster for me to get out and run.

Tanks should be able to race up hills that are not so steep like the ones that they crawl up in the game.

Fixing just things like these would greatly make tanks alot more realisic AND fun to play.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (unpronouncable @ May 19 2002,00:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Tex..  too bad everyone doesnt use that argument and have your attitude.. then we'd all give a fuck about trying to make anything better...

there is difference in trying to make a BORING SIM GAME vs trying to get an REALISTIC ACTION GAME...

as I said earlier : "too much realism isnt fun in a game (hey.. its suppose to be a game! But it woudnt kill me if the tank tactic basics were true to real life"

by the way.. I managed to find some previous posts about tank realism.. some of them very amusing ones.. for example:

seems alot of ppl think the driver cant be directed.. they press the left button, the driver makes a quick left turn and then goes straight forward again.. hahaha... try HOLDING the left turn button... btw.. this is the best way directing the driver... AND most realistic.. in a real life tank you dont say "left left.. more left.. a little bit more left.. oh.. right... no.. left... some more left.. there!" In a real tank you say: "left!... (the driver starts turning left til you say:) "..forward!" ... Actually, when you have to direct the driver like this you're probably just a really bad tank commander... or your driver sucks...

Another really amusing thing was this guy saying he wanted a "ride in back" option for the tanks since the loader spot is empty in the game... lol

and another guy said its unrealistic how the trees doesnt slow the tank down... eh.. excuse me.. where talking 60 tons moving at 40mph... trees sure didnt slow my tank down... the only unrealistic thing about trees is that the driver seems to be doing everything to hit them...<span id='postcolor'>

in OFP, you make your own tactics. In case you didnt notice, its not like anyone is forcing you to drive right up to the enemy tank. Real tank tactics do work in OFP, it just takes some effort to use them. As for implementing tank tactics into the AI... whats the point? I mean, after all, the developers have enough on their plate right now.

So... dont blame the game for your own tactics. You can easily use more realistic tactics in OFP; the game is flexible, and allows you to do that.

As for the damage models? yeah, they do need some work, but its not ruining the game for me

[Blake 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ May 19 2002,03:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">in OFP, you make your own tactics. In case you didnt notice, its not like anyone is forcing you to drive right up to the enemy tank. Real tank tactics do work in OFP, it just takes some effort to use them. As for implementing tank tactics into the AI... whats the point? I mean, after all, the developers have enough on their plate right now.

So... dont blame the game for your own tactics. You can easily use more realistic tactics in OFP; the game is flexible, and allows you to do that.

As for the damage models? yeah, they do need some work, but its not ruining the game for me<span id='postcolor'>

I agree with you 100%, as a tanker in my OFP squad I've found many times that real-war tank tactics work in the game too, like maneuvring for hull-down position, firing and changing positions, outflanking etc.

It's especially interesting to man a tank which everybody is specialized in certain role, Driver, gunner and commander.

And all using voice comms inside vehicle the result is very exciting. Especially using the excellent realistic armor tanks really behave like tanks and sound very loud as they should be. Yesterday I really had to yell to mic to give orders

Of course there could be more realism and it wouldn't ruin the game for nobody.

[amos m 0]

What's ofp internals?

[unpronouncable 0]

why is with everyone always quoting? dont you think ppl get it unless you quote every damn time you have to say something? it just makes every post twice as long.. so.. stop it.. ok?

it isnt me who is driving up to the enemy.. its the enemy tanks who are driving up to me.. they way AI tanks behave.. both your platoon tanks and the enemy tanks.. it just makes me cry... (and its not tears of joy) just standing and shooting at eachother makes no sense at all...

and the only reason your lame tactics work in the game is because the AI tanks dont realize that if they stand still in the same place for five minutes after being shot at someone will shoot at them again from a different angle.. so they just stand there hoping you will turn up again at the ordinary spot... you have to be a retarded tank commander to act like that.. outflanking-maneuvring only works because the enemy AI is sooo daaaamn slow... (i said they stand still for five minutes becase that is how long it takes to get your platoon togheter and taking it 100 yards in cover to the left or right after hitting into eachother about 55 times, doing more damage to themself than the enemy has)

this realism in tank combat you are talking about... i guess you are talking single tank combat... who gives about that? what really matters is platoon combat.. there are no single tanks in war(well.. of course there's single tanks but they always act as a platoon in a company)... The platoon aspect of the OFP tank game is impossible to use in a realistic ways... no matter what you say.. the tank AI commanders in platoon is just too damn retarded...

for example: when i order "reverse" on my platoon (for example if there is a large enemy in front of us) all the other tanks in my pluton turnt 180 and drive with their weakest point towards the enemy(!!

WHY ARE YOU DEFENDING THIS ASPECT OF THE GAME!? OH MY GOD WHYYYYYY!! Do you guys have your nose up the developers ass or something?

i think the tank AI is worth working on.. why? because i think tanks are the coolest thing in the world.. its not cool running around in tight black pants and a cute matching top with an mp5 in the dark placing satchel charges and then running away to hide... i would take my platoon, get on the top of a hill.. and fire heat rounds for a couple of days where you would have put your charges... and laugh while i was doin it...

[Darkhawk 0]

When you are commanding a group of tanks I think you should be able to tell them what formation to get into

[Major Fubar 0]

You should check out the MBT Realism Pack (2.45MB) M1A1 & T80 RealismPack (1.93 KB), both available for download at Operation Flashpoint CZ.

There are a lot of realism mods around out there to be downloaded.

[dayglow 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (unpronouncable @ May 18 2002,21:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">WHY ARE YOU DEFENDING THIS ASPECT OF THE GAME!? OH MY GOD WHYYYYYY!! Do you guys have your nose up the developers ass or something?<span id='postcolor'>

It's because the vast majority of the community here enjoys the game and appreciates the time and effort BIS put into the game. Yes there are some weak points and the AI is lacking in areas, but OFP is so much more than any other game in the modeling of combined armed forces and the ability to let the player to do so many things within the world

And to have you here and take a disrispectful tone not only towards the developers, but to other members of this community that have contributed to the game is uncalled for. The whole tone of your posts is off. There is nothing wrong with discussing weak points in the game, but you have zero tact when dealing with it. My suggestion is that since you hate it so much it is never going to amount to what you want. So uninstall the game and sell it on Ebay and go back whatever you were playing before and enjoy it. Simple.

COLINMAN

[amos m 0]

I disagree dayglow. He came on here, made a simple post about how the tank combat is unrealistic and as a result less enjoyable/playable, and got slagged off about it. The BIS team will just take this as constructive criticism, as that's what it is, and perhaps some good will come of it. He never said he didn't like the game, and I don't remember reading anything he said being made in a disrespectful manner in this thread.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (amos m @ May 19 2002,08:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I disagree dayglow. He came on here, made a simple post about how the tank combat is unrealistic and as a result less enjoyable/playable, and got slagged off about it. The BIS team will just take this as constructive criticism, as that's what it is, and perhaps some good will come of it. He never said he didn't like the game, and I don't remember reading anything he said being made in a disrespectful manner in this thread.<span id='postcolor'>

hes not gettin slagged man. he came on lookin for a debate, and when the deabte finds him, he takes it personally. Thats too bad. We already told him why we disagree with him, he gets his nose bent out of joint. Are we supposed to apologize or something?

[amos m 0]

lol. That might be nice. He wasn't looking for a debate, he was making a post about the fact that he doesn't find the tank battles up to par with the rest of the game. It's often hard to express what you're trying to say on these forums when between each post you get a hundred ppl coming on and saying "you're wrong, you got no idea, you're a putz", and after that you got a hundred things you wanna say in one post. Have a little understanding ppl.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

That is so completely not the situation. If you didnt want anyone to express their own opinions on your thoughts, keep them to yourself. The whole point of a forum is to debate issues- not a place where everyone can go "Im right!" and go unchallenged. And noone called him a putz, or anything else for that matter. He did however say that the people disagreeing with him were "tossing the developers' salads". Why should we be understanding when he is the one doing all the insulting?