Su-25 radar bug, armor fix

[Der_Waffen 28]

To BIS developers,

If one of the goals of this game is to provide realism, or at least objects in this game should behave as close as possible to their real life counterparts, I implore you to take a closer look at radar and planes - especially the Su-25.

I don't fly a whole lot of other planes in the game, however I did notice a radar bug/glitch where sometimes a missile slams into the plane without EVER showing up on the radar. This happens occasionally and is VERY frustrating to have an aircraft like that go down without giving the pilot any chance at all for self-defence.

Another issue with the Su-25 I would recommend addressing is the armor on the plane. In real life, the thing is a flying tank! It has a titanium casing that completely surrounds the pilot, and there are MANY, MANY accounts and pictures to verify that several Su-25's have been shot 2 or 3 times with stingers or sa-7's and have still landed safely. There are even frogfoot's that have had a wing blown off, engine shredded, and fusealage torn completely up and they still landed no problem. To have one completely "vaporize" in game is completely unrealistic. I'm not saying they should be impossible to shoot down, but small arms fire or 1 stinger completely destroying the aircraft or making it unflyable? that is not realistic by a long shot. And before you dismiss my ideas, go and do some research and find out how many Su-25's have taken hits from AA missles and shrgged them off, or about the one who took 87 30mm rounds and still flew.

The Russians built a monster that you can throw any type of fuel in it to get it running, and can beat it to a pulp and it will keep coming at you. it's the LONGEST service plane that continues to serve in dozens of countries today.

IMHO, you shouldn't have put that plane in the game if you weren't going to do it justice.

-Peace

[ffur2007slx2_5 11]

All airplanes in A2 are only used for matching the ground operation, airplane simulation isn't the key factor. That's why you can hardly find official scenarios or campaigns emphasis on airplane dog-fight.

So, it's simply known that BIS won't work too hard at airplane simulation before they've made ground simulation perfect.

Edited January 28, 2011 by ffur2007slx2_5

[[asa]oden 0]

You request better realism yet mention radar and Su-25 in the same sentence?

What kind of radar are you thinking of that is able to see an incoming passive homing IR missile?

The only radar capable of doing this that I know of, and use both in FC2 and Falcon 4, is the Eyeball Mk1 - and in all honesty, that one is already part of the BIS Su-25 avionics.

[Shadow NX 1]

The thing is the A10 flies absolutely flawless, almost gains speed when turning hard, nearly never stalls and can shoot out a soldiers eye with its GAU cannon while the Su-25 in A2 is a pain to fly, loosing speed extremely on every turn and is generally harder to manouver if you need to make a precission attack.

Perfect sample are the two missions in the very soon upcomming CSLA Mod where you fly both and oh boy there you will notice the difference.

[Tonci87 163]

Yes IMHO the A-10 should be harder to fly, or the SU easier.

[Beagle 684]

To BIS developers,

If one of the goals of this game is to provide realism, or at least objects in this game should behave as close as possible to their real life counterparts, I implore you to take a closer look at radar and planes - especially the Su-25.

I don't fly a whole lot of other planes in the game, however I did notice a radar bug/glitch where sometimes a missile slams into the plane without EVER showing up on the radar. This happens occasionally and is VERY frustrating to have an aircraft like that go down without giving the pilot any chance at all for self-defence.

Another issue with the Su-25 I would recommend addressing is the armor on the plane. In real life, the thing is a flying tank! It has a titanium casing that completely surrounds the pilot, and there are MANY, MANY accounts and pictures to verify that several Su-25's have been shot 2 or 3 times with stingers or sa-7's and have still landed safely. There are even frogfoot's that have had a wing blown off, engine shredded, and fusealage torn completely up and they still landed no problem. To have one completely "vaporize" in game is completely unrealistic. I'm not saying they should be impossible to shoot down, but small arms fire or 1 stinger completely destroying the aircraft or making it unflyable? that is not realistic by a long shot. And before you dismiss my ideas, go and do some research and find out how many Su-25's have taken hits from AA missles and shrgged them off, or about the one who took 87 30mm rounds and still flew.

The Russians built a monster that you can throw any type of fuel in it to get it running, and can beat it to a pulp and it will keep coming at you. it's the LONGEST service plane that continues to serve in dozens of countries today.

IMHO, you shouldn't have put that plane in the game if you weren't going to do it justice.

-Peace

You better go flying the Su-25 in LockOn 2.0 online if you want it closer to real life...albeit the F-15s wotn make your apperance short and just getting eyes on a target is hard hard work.

The planes and "radar" system in ArmAII is pure fantasy, it is hard work to get a single groubn kill in a Su-25 in a dedicated Simulation.

[Der_Waffen 28]

ODEN;1844045']You request better realism yet mention radar and Su-25 in the same sentence?

What kind of radar are you thinking of that is able to see an incoming passive homing IR missile?

The only radar capable of doing this that I know of' date=' and use both in FC2 and Falcon 4, is the Eyeball Mk1 - and in all honesty, that one is already part of the BIS Su-25 avionics.[/quote']

Sir, You are misinformed, might I suggest you further research your claims before dismissing my ideas.

This excerpt is taken from specs on the "new" modernized ECM suite installed on ALL upgraded Su-25's:

The electronic countermeasure (ECM)system is intended to carry out electronic reconnaissance and all-directionalprotection of aircraft in radar and IR band of electromagnetic waves inautomatic mode of operation without the pilot’s interference.

The system comprises:

- electronic reconnaissance set intendedto pinpoint all existing ground, airborne and shipborne radars used fordetection and fire-control, operating in 1.2-18 GHz and determine the mostdangerous target, its coordinates and distance to it;

- small-size electronic active jammer, generatingdeflecting, noise, scintillating and re-targeting to underlying surfaceinterferences;

- optronic jammer, generating an amplitude-frequencymodulating interference to IR missile seekers;

- dispenser of IR decoys with 192 decoy projectilesgenerating passive jamming in conjunction with "cold" aircraftengines intended to frustrate at a critical moment over a target the ADmissile portable systems of enemy attack;

- aircraft decoys to detect and deceive ADenemy systems lurking in ambushes, onboard fighter radars and missileswith all types of seekers.

I think that about covers any type of missle threat they could send up against the Su-25.

And even if the dev's can't/won't upgrade the radar/ECM on the Su-25, they should at least give the plane a 75% survival rate on a 1 hit impact against AA missles. considering their are AA guns, AA missles, and every Tom,Dick, and Harry running around on the battlefield can carry a Stinger missle, would make sense if you could surive a hit before carbonizing in the clouds....

[[asa]oden 0]

I see your point but I still can't connect that to the Su25 but rather something to be found on the far more advanced Su25T or Su39 variants.

Still, you're entiteled a different view than mine so this is a issue between you and the devs I guess - and in all honesty, as a Falcon4 pilot I never fly in ArmA so I really won't mind if you get an overmodelled avionicssuit for the frog.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

The problem is that some planes, like the AV8 have the RWR in game yet the CAS planes like the SU-25 and the A-10 do not.

It makes flying these aircraft suicidal in online matches, particularly the A10 as you have to pretty much be continuously pumping out countermeasures just in case there is a missile heading your way.

[Der_Waffen 28]

ODEN;1844399']I see your point but I still can't connect that to the Su25 but rather something to be found on the far more advanced Su25T or Su39 variants.

Still' date=' you're entiteled a different view than mine so this is a issue between you and the devs I guess - and in all honesty, as a Falcon4 pilot I never fly in ArmA so I really won't mind if you get an overmodelled avionicssuit for the frog.[/quote']

FYI - Su-25T and Su-39t are the same plane.

MOST Su-25's have the upgraded radar and ECW suite.

I tested an online match tonight and 3 times I was shot down with a Stinger, with no warning whatsoever, and 2 times I was shot down with AA pods from AI, in which case I had a radar warning, but the AI kept pumping missles into me until I was dead.

The bottom line is the dev's should fix the stingers so they show up on CAS plane's radar at least.. and also beef the armor up a bit, so 1 hit doesn't always mean 1 kill...

[Beagle 684]

FYI - Su-25T and Su-39t are the same plane.

MOST Su-25's have the upgraded radar and ECW suite.

I tested an online match tonight and 3 times I was shot down with a Stinger, with no warning whatsoever, and 2 times I was shot down with AA pods from AI, in which case I had a radar warning, but the AI kept pumping missles into me until I was dead.

The bottom line is the dev's should fix the stingers so they show up on CAS plane's radar at least.. and also beef the armor up a bit, so 1 hit doesn't always mean 1 kill...

Planes already have too mu7ch hitpoints in ArmA, and the Su-25 in game is a old model with 90's standard like the one portrayed in FC2.0. And the missile warning in Su-25T does not work in the fashion you think of it...it works only for radar guided missiles and only from a limited aspect.

Su-25 is already completely overmodeled in ArmA...

BTW: real life tatic for this planes is to fly in low,, popß up to 1000m release Countermermeasures CONTINOUSLY, deliver wepons in a single strike at 500m alt minimum and 500km/h, egress and fly home...if you do airstunts over target area you deserve beeing shot down.

[Star Four One 10]

To BIS developers,

If one of the goals of this game is to provide realism, or at least objects in this game should behave as close as possible to their real life counterparts, I implore you to take a closer look at radar and planes - especially the Su-25.

I don't fly a whole lot of other planes in the game, however I did notice a radar bug/glitch where sometimes a missile slams into the plane without EVER showing up on the radar. This happens occasionally and is VERY frustrating to have an aircraft like that go down without giving the pilot any chance at all for self-defence.

Another issue with the Su-25 I would recommend addressing is the armor on the plane. In real life, the thing is a flying tank! It has a titanium casing that completely surrounds the pilot, and there are MANY, MANY accounts and pictures to verify that several Su-25's have been shot 2 or 3 times with stingers or sa-7's and have still landed safely. There are even frogfoot's that have had a wing blown off, engine shredded, and fusealage torn completely up and they still landed no problem. To have one completely "vaporize" in game is completely unrealistic. I'm not saying they should be impossible to shoot down, but small arms fire or 1 stinger completely destroying the aircraft or making it unflyable? that is not realistic by a long shot. And before you dismiss my ideas, go and do some research and find out how many Su-25's have taken hits from AA missles and shrgged them off, or about the one who took 87 30mm rounds and still flew.

The Russians built a monster that you can throw any type of fuel in it to get it running, and can beat it to a pulp and it will keep coming at you. it's the LONGEST service plane that continues to serve in dozens of countries today.

IMHO, you shouldn't have put that plane in the game if you weren't going to do it justice.

-Peace

Obviously a/c is not your strong suite.

Certain missiles do not pop up on your raw because of there targeting criteria - many aircraft have been lost to IR seekers.. seeing as how deadly they are. Pods have been produced(TADIRCM) to combat the detection from the IR SAM, it still takes up a pylon. ArmA2 does not have any external mission combat systems to add to the jet as it's a very simple flight model.

Planes are meant to fly and avoid SAMS and AAA, no matter what armour protection a acft has, it will not take a missile with open arms. Usually getting hit means you have a long walk home. This applies to any "flying tank"...

Regardless of it's service life - a SAM doesn't descriminate.

PS: Your excerpt still doesn't provide backing for the Frogfoot to take missiles, or avoid them for that matter - before you copy and paste, know what your talking about - jamming will not influence a IR threat. Nor any other block updates.

S41

[Der_Waffen 28]

Obviously a/c is not your strong suite.

Certain missiles do not pop up on your raw because of there targeting criteria - many aircraft have been lost to IR seekers.. seeing as how deadly they are. Pods have been produced(TADIRCM) to combat the detection from the IR SAM, it still takes up a pylon. ArmA2 does not have any external mission combat systems to add to the jet as it's a very simple flight model.

Planes are meant to fly and avoid SAMS and AAA, no matter what armour protection a acft has, it will not take a missile with open arms. Usually getting hit means you have a long walk home. This applies to any "flying tank"...

Regardless of it's service life - a SAM doesn't descriminate.

PS: Your excerpt still doesn't provide backing for the Frogfoot to take missiles, or avoid them for that matter - before you copy and paste, know what your talking about - jamming will not influence a IR threat. Nor any other block updates.

S41

before you read my next copy/paste, maybe you should understand what It reads before you argue with actual specifications.

The optronic jammer is DESIGNED to actively emit a jamming frequency to CONFUSE IR missles, in the event that it fails, it starbursts a signal when the missle is a dozen or more meters away from the aircraft, in an attempt to change it's course, in case THAT fails, it deploys a salvo of IR decoys, which are different than chaff or flares, in a sense that they burst in the air releasing IR radiation.

And before you post your un-researched opinion, let me explain how jamming WILL influence an IR threat. This is a copy/paste which explains optronic IR jamming technically.

The modulated IR flux formed by the optronic jammer makes up the jamming noise inside the missile's "track loop" and exploits its guidance system. The hit probability is decreased practically up to zero.

Just so you know EVERYTHING creates a noise - even light and heat, that noise is on a band. If you can mimic the band wavelength, you can track/manipulate it's source.

If I were you I wouldn't post anything unless you know it's 100% fact and not

a hypothesis.

DW

---------- Post added at 10:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 AM ----------

Planes already have too mu7ch hitpoints in ArmA, and the Su-25 in game is a old model with 90's standard like the one portrayed in FC2.0. And the missile warning in Su-25T does not work in the fashion you think of it...it works only for radar guided missiles and only from a limited aspect.

Su-25 is already completely overmodeled in ArmA...

BTW: real life tatic for this planes is to fly in low,, popß up to 1000m release Countermermeasures CONTINOUSLY, deliver wepons in a single strike at 500m alt minimum and 500km/h, egress and fly home...if you do airstunts over target area you deserve beeing shot down.

Please Sir, educate me on how the missile warning system in the Su-25 t works.

I'm sure I am wrong, and that you undoubtedly know how it's ECM operates in it's entirety.

[Beagle 684]

before you read my next copy/paste, maybe you should understand what It reads before you argue with actual specifications.

The optronic jammer is DESIGNED to actively emit a jamming frequency to CONFUSE IR missles, in the event that it fails, it starbursts a signal when the missle is a dozen or more meters away from the aircraft, in an attempt to change it's course, in case THAT fails, it deploys a salvo of IR decoys, which are different than chaff or flares, in a sense that they burst in the air releasing IR radiation.

And before you post your un-researched opinion, let me explain how jamming WILL influence an IR threat. This is a copy/paste which explains optronic IR jamming technically.

The modulated IR flux formed by the optronic jammer makes up the jamming noise inside the missile's "track loop" and exploits its guidance system. The hit probability is decreased practically up to zero.

Just so you know EVERYTHING creates a noise - even light and heat, that noise is on a band. If you can mimic the band wavelength, you can track/manipulate it's source.

If I were you I wouldn't post anything unless you know it's 100% fact and not

a hypothesis.

DW

---------- Post added at 10:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 AM ----------

Please Sir, educate me on how the missile warning system in the Su-25 t works.

I'm sure I am wrong, and that you undoubtedly know how it's ECM operates in it's entirety.

According to LockOn and Eagle dynamics, a russian company that uses unclassified data directly from russian airforce to model aircraft in its game es close as possible to real capabilities the Su-25t only has the standard SPO-15 "Beryoza" warning receiver detecting radar sources.

The su-25 is forced to use terrain masking extensively flying at "extreme low level" less than 50m, its only countermeasure against Heat Seeker missiles is the huhge amount of flares, it carries 192 and continously deploys this flares when poping up out of low level for an attack run. Additionally it features an IR jammer of the same type used in the Mi-24 and Mi-8 Helicopters.

A Su-39 is not in the Russian AF inventory, it's a prototype. for more tech talk visit the Eagle Dynamics forums, the threads there are full with "experts".

They also make military grade training simulators, and like BIS "leak" some of the info gathered there into their Desktop Simulations.

http://forums.eagle.ru/

Fact is. ED gets the Flying stuff right, BIS gets the groudn stuff right, dont expect both to excell in the others Specialist department

Edited January 30, 2011 by Beagle

[Der_Waffen 28]

please Beagle.. Stop.. you know not what you speak of.. i'm tired of proving you wrong with facts.. Lock on and Eagle are GAME COMPANIES.. they know nothing more than the average joe with an encyclopedia.

SU-39 or SU-25T, or SU-25SM are NOT prototypes... and they MOST DEFINITELY are in the Russian AF.

Planes that you THINK are still in the experimental stage like the S-37 Berkut are in fact in production.. the S-37 was re-designated the SU-47.

the "U" means in production.. any plane from Sukhoi that goes into mainstream production recieves the suffix "U

so the sU-25t or sU-39 is in production and they have lots and lots.

I'm trying VERY hard not to flame you for being stupid.. but my number one pet peeve is Forum Lawyers that think they know something because they googled it, come on here and pass verbal diarrhea like it's verbatim. You get an E-slap upside the Head for being a moron... sorry not a flame, but I call a spade a spade.

That's twice I proved you wrong... and i'm getting annoyed with your ignorance.

Don't post crap and pass it out like it's gospel.

1485 posts.. wow.. I will really look hard at your future posts to filter out the baloney.

[Beagle 684]

please Beagle.. Stop.. you know not what you speak of.. i'm tired of proving you wrong with facts.. Lock on and Eagle are GAME COMPANIES.. they know nothing more than the average joe with an encyclopedia.

Youre wrong here in this point. Both companies make Simulation softwares for armed forces. What we get to play with is just the toned down more playable derivative.

Facts:

http://www.thebattlesim.com/index.php?end_pos=1111&scr=default〈=en

http://www.bisimulations.com/products/vbs2

and now bring your facts that give any prove that the links above are just fakes to fool us as consumers.

[wolfbite 8]

please Beagle.. Stop.. you know not what you speak of.. i'm tired of proving you wrong with facts.. Lock on and Eagle are GAME COMPANIES.. they know nothing more than the average joe with an encyclopedia.

SU-39 or SU-25T, or SU-25SM are NOT prototypes... and they MOST DEFINITELY are in the Russian AF.

Planes that you THINK are still in the experimental stage like the S-37 Berkut are in fact in production.. the S-37 was re-designated the SU-47.

the "U" means in production.. any plane from Sukhoi that goes into mainstream production recieves the suffix "U

so the sU-25t or sU-39 is in production and they have lots and lots.

I'm trying VERY hard not to flame you for being stupid.. but my number one pet peeve is Forum Lawyers that think they know something because they googled it, come on here and pass verbal diarrhea like it's verbatim. You get an E-slap upside the Head for being a moron... sorry not a flame, but I call a spade a spade.

That's twice I proved you wrong... and i'm getting annoyed with your ignorance.

Don't post crap and pass it out like it's gospel.

1485 posts.. wow.. I will really look hard at your future posts to filter out the baloney.

Erm..... The SU-47 was a tech demonstrator..... Its not going into full production...

As for ECM/Countermeasures on Su-25's Russia is going to start upgrading the Older Su-25's soon.. I dont have the full details with me at the moment since I'm at work...

And mate you havent "Proven" anything. You've pasted pieces of articles about russian defensive measures with no context.

Dont get me wrong I really want the russian kit to have all the bits and bobs working but This isnt an accurate flight sim. Maybe someone will work on these things. I kinda want to make some ecm kits for aircraft just not too sure where to start scriptwise.

[Der_Waffen 28]

umm.. How have I not proven my point Wolf? I've proven That Jamming IR signals will influence an IR threat, I've proven that Su-25t (Su-39) are in mainstream production...

I've proven people who say either Russian planes don't have the capabilities to counter heat seekers, I've proven that The eyeball MK1 isn't the only system that will couter these threats, I've proven that The Russians are on par with The Western World in terms of innovating new technology to combat said threats.

People say Russia doesn't have the budget or resources to compete with U.S. for "New" Technology.. This is simply not True, without digressing from this thread, let me just say That the Russians have Technology that the American's wish they had - like The SKVAL super torpedo...

Wolf, you are right about Russia upgrading their old Su-25's... currently they are at 60% of their inventory that received to new upgrades, with plans to upgrade the remaining 40% - just like they are doing with all their old Hinds.

So tell me how I haven't proven my point?

I understand this isn't a flight sim.. but If I didn't bring up what could be worked on, maybe no one else would, and It wouldn't get addressed. Not like I can submit a ticket to have a developer get right on it.. All I can do is hope these issues will get looked at in future patches.

P.S.

As I said before, the Su-47 Berkut went into production when It was redesignated from S-37.

It's still listed as a technology demonstrator, but let me assure you that It is in full production, and has also received orders from several Countries. The information you recieved is out of date.

I would love to list my sources, but I don't want to digress from this thread anymore than it already has.

As far as i'm concerned this thread should be closed, as I consider any questions answered, and all opinions made.

[st_dux 26]

Dude, there have been a grand total of eight SU-39s produced. I wouldn't call that "mainstream production" by any means. As for the Berkut, there is only one in existence, and although attempts have no doubt been made to market it as a production fighter, there's still only one as of this post.

[Leon86 13]

As far as i'm concerned this thread should be closed

I think we can all agree on that.

[Star Four One 10]

before you read my next copy/paste, maybe you should understand what It reads before you argue with actual specifications.

The optronic jammer is DESIGNED to actively emit a jamming frequency to CONFUSE IR missles, in the event that it fails, it starbursts a signal when the missle is a dozen or more meters away from the aircraft, in an attempt to change it's course, in case THAT fails, it deploys a salvo of IR decoys, which are different than chaff or flares, in a sense that they burst in the air releasing IR radiation.

And before you post your un-researched opinion, let me explain how jamming WILL influence an IR threat. This is a copy/paste which explains optronic IR jamming technically.

The modulated IR flux formed by the optronic jammer makes up the jamming noise inside the missile's "track loop" and exploits its guidance system. The hit probability is decreased practically up to zero.

Just so you know EVERYTHING creates a noise - even light and heat, that noise is on a band. If you can mimic the band wavelength, you can track/manipulate it's source.

If I were you I wouldn't post anything unless you know it's 100% fact and not

a hypothesis.

DW

---------- Post added at 10:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 AM ----------

Please Sir, educate me on how the missile warning system in the Su-25 t works.

I'm sure I am wrong, and that you undoubtedly know how it's ECM operates in it's entirety.

I understand FULLY what it reads. My JOB is in direct relation to Bugs. It is you who needs to understand it before copying and pasting it and preaching you know what your talking about. Before you post on the internet, due realise that there are active/former/upcoming Military members, who in some cases hold a much higher standing of knowledge then you.

Due to OPSEC, a "how to jam" is obviously not going to be discussed. What I can tell you, the US and it's tighter tier allies are far beyond any other nations equipment, tactics, and implementation, in both numbers and quality. Not to say underestimate your enemy, but America is the only country that spends over 300Billion alone on white projects.

Don't you think jamming IR missiles has been thought of before? What are you going to do, run a active beacon on your a/c for other aircraft or SAM's to pick up? It's not as simple as souping up a honda civic. I'd place my bets on a HOJ shot.

Please provide backing to all your claims, including references, and factual accounts - as half of what you listed are either unrelated to anything about the topic, or have been made up to precieve as factual. F & C already take up space, adding in another component is highly unlikely to a existing airframe - especially for MANPADS, which are a very short and mobile threat.

The modulated IR flux formed by the optronic jammer makes up the jamming noise inside the missile's "track loop" and exploits its guidance system. The hit probability is decreased practically up to zero.

Not touching this area. :cool:

@Beagle

Unfortunately Waffens right on something... Lockon is just a game, with little to do with the real deal.. although we slap Simulation on it, it's also a selling point to alot of enthusiasts who have minimal knowledge or experience in the field.

For example, the propaganda that infuences are friend Waffen on the Super Frogfoot.

S41

---------- Post added at 09:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 PM ----------

umm.. How have I not proven my point Wolf? I've proven That Jamming IR signals will influence an IR threat, I've proven that Su-25t (Su-39) are in mainstream production...

I've proven people who say either Russian planes don't have the capabilities to counter heat seekers, I've proven that The eyeball MK1 isn't the only system that will couter these threats, I've proven that The Russians are on par with The Western World in terms of innovating new technology to combat said threats.

People say Russia doesn't have the budget or resources to compete with U.S. for "New" Technology.. This is simply not True, without digressing from this thread, let me just say That the Russians have Technology that the American's wish they had - like The SKVAL super torpedo...

Wolf, you are right about Russia upgrading their old Su-25's... currently they are at 60% of their inventory that received to new upgrades, with plans to upgrade the remaining 40% - just like they are doing with all their old Hinds.

So tell me how I haven't proven my point?

I understand this isn't a flight sim.. but If I didn't bring up what could be worked on, maybe no one else would, and It wouldn't get addressed. Not like I can submit a ticket to have a developer get right on it.. All I can do is hope these issues will get looked at in future patches.

P.S.

As I said before, the Su-47 Berkut went into production when It was redesignated from S-37.

It's still listed as a technology demonstrator, but let me assure you that It is in full production, and has also received orders from several Countries. The information you recieved is out of date.

I would love to list my sources, but I don't want to digress from this thread anymore than it already has.

As far as i'm concerned this thread should be closed, as I consider any questions answered, and all opinions made.

Your right, there are systems that are being produced to counter IR threats, however they are not implemented, or on short supply due to the weight, cost, and space in upgrading or utilising existing airframe hardpoints.

The Russians can barely afford to keep there airframes running let alone create and develop against countries with a MUCH bigger budget then them. To be honest, they don't even have a operational ASEA set on any of their ACFT. How do you figure they can even compete with newer designs.

Of course you want to close this thread as you do not have any sources to back your claims - it's almost a joke responding in this thread with claims of SU-47 Production to several countries..

S41

[ryguy 10]

There's no need to point out the nuances about missile defences in the Su-25. All he's asking is that the radar glitch be fixed (it's a glitch, fix it. None of that bull about A2 not being a flight sim), and the armor be increased. If all the other aircraft have better specs than the Sukhoi's, why not?

[Beagle 684]

There's no need to point out the nuances about missile defences in the Su-25. All he's asking is that the radar glitch be fixed (it's a glitch, fix it. None of that bull about A2 not being a flight sim), and the armor be increased. If all the other aircraft have better specs than the Sukhoi's, why not?

No, they dont have all better specs, thats the point in here nor do all others have the same Missile warning capabilities.

In ArmA there are 2 subtypes of Su-25 with different abilities...and a Su-34 that is even better in all aspects. Not a single airplane in ArmA is made to even close to real life specs in performance, sensor or weapons.

So what is the point in altering one without all others.

@ Star Four One

I never said FC2 and DCS is a true to life Simulation, but it is at least trying to make it as close as possible on a Desktop PC while not becoming a pure button pushing sim giving a much better idea what a real Su-25 driver is about to do and can do.

Todays PC-Sims (there are not much of them) are not far from what is used for Pilot training, but even those Simulators are still far from real flight conditions.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Beagle

[Star Four One 10]

There's no need to point out the nuances about missile defences in the Su-25. All he's asking is that the radar glitch be fixed (it's a glitch, fix it. None of that bull about A2 not being a flight sim), and the armor be increased. If all the other aircraft have better specs than the Sukhoi's, why not?

Regardless of Glitch or not, Waffen pointed out that the RWR can infact pick up a IR launch as factual - and that Jets are like video games, where they are created with Hitpoints. If your making claims, back them up!

@Beagle

'Flight Simulator', I know is used for civilian pilot training for any single/multi engine prop where I live; you need to hit a certain amount of hours on it. However, military jets are usually no factor within public "simulatations"; that DCS A-10 does look good though. :cool:

S41

[Der_Waffen 28]

@SFO

I don't get your argument.. i'm not some Civiy who googles or uses wikipedia as a Source.

You made a statement that IR missles are not subject to jamming.. I backed that up by explaining how optronic jammers and IR decoys work. So you made that statement, I quoted direct unclassified specifications for multi-million dollar systems designed to counter these threats - yet you claim I can't back up my statements?

I wante to close this thread, because It is far straying from the topic of radar and su-25 armour in the game. People are getting into topics of real world, and that doesn't help the problem that I originally posted.

Seems to me that Ryguy got my point and didn't need to go into a 3 page battle royal about it.

As far as Active/Retired Military members and Opsec goes - SURPRISE! You are talking to one!

I currently have 7 Years Military Service, Still serving, and Am a Member of the Royal Canadian Dragoons. I've x-trained with Americans in Fort Bliss, Texas, and New Mexico.

I have Heaps and Heaps of information about weapon systems, ballistics, targeting computers, surveillance, I've even been trained on a few locheed martin targeting systems. I've also trained in AFV, escape and evade, advanced interrogation, cryptography, foreign weapon systems, LWR, CNRB, etc. etc.

I've had countless briefings on air defence, electronic warfare, you name it.

So maybe you should be careful about assuming I am not knowledgeable about weapons systems. You claimed I should back up what I write, but when you claim that IR missles CAN'T be influenced by jamming, did you back it up? Did you back up anything you wrote? Aircraft aren't gonna be toting around beacons.. they will use the optronic jammer and active IR decoys just like I wrote.

And as far as the "poor old poor Russians" are concerned.. they can do whatever they want.. They don't care about budgets.. They have been neck and neck with the U.S since the 60's. In some areas they were behind, and in others they are way ahead.. how do you think they put a man in space first with about a 10th of the budget of the united states?

How do you think they developed the worlds fastest and unavoidable underwater, rocket propelled super-topedo? The U.S tried to get their hands on it for $18M for a prototype, but instead the guy was arrested and sent to Siberia for being a spy... Putin himself came to Canada and sold us 1 for the same price... Russia doesn't WANT the states to know what they have... so don't be so confident in thinking that the Ruskies are back in 80's technology - That's what your Government feeds you as propoganda so the pencil pushers in capitol hill can sleep better at night.

So this topic is officially de-railed.. but if you want to continue this trend... by all means, until it gets turfed by the mod.