Crni-Vuk

Its nice to see how many here defend the game they purchased. But you guys should really not get so hung up on the "crouch command" as from how I see it is just a example (what ever if a good or bad one is a different question) regarding how the AI in the game works which definetly does not work like advertised or described. Its a fact that Arma II was unfinished in many aspects and the campaign "unplayable" for many users when the game was released, a game you pay a "full price" for. And thats what gives every user who purchased the game a valid right to express his concerns in a forum. I see many times people praise and applaud the developers of some game but its just fair to also raise the criticism. There are many examples about how the game is either unfinished or not working correctly, even after a few patches. The AI seems still to be a source of many issues. Other examples would be the engine, which is not very well optimised or the use of vehicles which also ends in bugs and what not else. No one is saying that a game has to be a "perfect" game. But seriously now Bohemia is not a company with few experience. Bohemia is not a company which just opened its doors yesterday. They have now released 3 comercial games, they have done simulations for the military (from what I have read). They really should by now know it better. Particularly when they want to make games.

Well when you search for a server that has a decent game runing which isnt even that easy as some seem to not do more then just throw AI and units on a map it happens many times enough that the server gets empty fast thx to team killers which have fun in killing people in spawn or destroying vehicles. Of course thats not all the time happening. But its worse compared to many other games I played. Particularly when you get home from a lot of work you dont want to deal 1 our 2 ours in finding servers that dont have idiots runing on it.

Yes sure. Thats a very easy conclusion. Every kind of criticsm is plane wrong I guess and Bohemia can do no wrong. I am missing the inquisition though. Dont get me wrong. Arma II is definetly a "fun" game. No one can seriously dispute that. But its not free from errors or eventualy wrong decisions even from Bohemia. They released a game way to early which is a fact. For quite many people neither multiplayer nor singleplayer was really playable and the campaign literaly at some point. One might argue that the campaign is just to get used with the game but thats beside the point. It was there. Its not to much to expect from it to work in a correct way. Or it should have been left out completely. That way they might even had enough time to concentrate on other things before the release. Another part is the userfriendlienss of the game. I havent played it recently but with patch 1.3 I was still missing easy ways to get rid of team killers (a easy to access vote kick menue would be already a start). Hands down simple "the game is shit and bohemia sucks!" comments are wrong and of course will lead to nothing. But there are a lot of criticism on this board that actualy DO have a place and do not aim at Bohemia but just adress things that actualy happen. The game for example is still very hardware hungry for apparant no reason (well for some it seems).

Same here. The game isnt "bad" or anything. But it just started to be more frustrating then rewarding. If I find a game that is descent it many times enough gets plagued either by bugs or people that do nothing else but kill the time for others with vehicles killing in spawn and other stupid behaviour. A few other things are also preference I guess. Almost every server I played so far just had 2 missions present (and it seems people always voted for them even ...) so I was missing variations. Everyone runing around with anti air/anti vehicle weapons by default and always the same "clear Chernogorks/next town ..." missions against the AI. I might give a look in to this game again when most of the things are fixed. Mabybe patch 1.8 ?

I can agree with many points in this topic. I think as well that too much freedom can be in my eyes at least a handicap to the meaning behind the game. I dont want to go again in a discussion about sematics, warefare or what simulations really are. But I just think and I assume most here will though dissagre that the many numbers of missions present in the game that have almost in no way realistic restrictions are contrary to the meaning of the game. I mean situations where Squad Leaders can get out of the spawn with a Javelin, vehicle crews or pilots with anti air missiles and where everyone can use every equipment like ground units tanks, helicopters or even planes. I have no issue with the fact that people can with the editor decide what is in their mission but I think its very sad to see that this kind of "one soldier can do all" gameplay has overtaken the gameplay. Feels for me at least not like a Simulation anymore.

Heh, yeah that is annoying (by knowing what you mean). But I was thinking about a "realistic and logic situation". That things should work different in some cases where you are particularly "not detected" by enemy forces yet and that in such situations the AI should really do what you order them and "not fire" is obvious :)

What I would love to see though is the KORD not just as "static" weapon but also beeing portable. KORD 12,7 mm machine gun (video-2) As it can be seen in those videos is quite possible and for a experienced soldier even "relatively" easy (by thinking about the caliber and size) to operate and use the weapon without some static trypod and with its integrated bypod for mobile situations. Of course with its weight and size you dont hurl it around like a M16 or SAW, but you can still operate it at least similar to a weapon like the M60 or MG3 eventualy somewhat with a bit more difficulty as effective use of it would require situations where you can deploy the weapon (sad there is no deploy of bypods in the game though ... another feature I am deeply missing :( ) but the accuracy and stoping power definetly would be aimaizing.

Of course there is. How can there not be? Are they responsible for the development of their own game or not. I have enough knowledge about programming and software development that I can say that there are ways to at least try working on solutions to the issue - by thinking about a punish system for example. How comes that it work(ed) with CS and DoD and STILl with Red Orchestra and its mod Darkest Hour (created by users as scripts)? As said. It can be achieved. Quite nicely and comfortable even. The question is only how much effort they will put in it to achieve some working solution. Thats the real trick. Then this has to be solved as well as fast as possible and replaced finally with a logicaly working scoreboard and recording of kills. I still dont understand many of the issues with how scores get counted like the pilot to receive ALL TEAMKILLS from a helicopter when a member of his team shoot the engine. Of course such things have to be solved first before one can even think about a logicaly working punish system. But again. Its possible. Red Orchestra (and its mods) have such things for years now and it shows the game is a lot more fun even without admins and seriously most of the time you will NOT have admins present in public play as they dont spend 24 ours of their life on the server and even with a lot of potential (many vehicles, different weapons etc.) for "delibareate team killiers" it almost always happens only accidently which is really not much of an issue. Yes it will. Red Orchestra/Darkest Hour (ROmodification) run nicely with almost no idiots around - definetly much much less compared to Arma II - particularly with the punish systems all server have in relation with the steam ID. the game will keep track about all people that run amok as well and you can report it to the admins and those will just kick the people with the Steam ID if needed. Arma would get a huge benefit from a similar system (for the case it has not some kind of ID). Of course in RO and DH you have to deal with idiots of different kind like people that drive the own tank right in to a mine field, jump in your vehicle in the midle of the fight to tourn it around so your rear is facing the enemy or they just decide to drive you directly in urban engagement and in enemy arms and people who decide to blow up gear in the spawn (without people inside). But with the punish system deliberate team kills are almost zero. Of course DH and RO have working "score boards" where all kills seem to happen logicaly and where you dont get team kills you dont deserve (like someome shoot your engine for example so that your helicopter is crashing) I can only repeat my self. THe real question is how much "effort" they want to spend in a working protection or at least a protection that makes it "more difficult" for idiots to cause a complete chaos. That you will never have 100% savety is obvious! But you can include mechanics in the game to make it a lot more difficult for the idiots like if you even want some optional punish system, spawn protection, game-IDs (which can not be changed with the IP and are fixed to your bought game!) etc. etc.

Letz hope for all of us youer not talking about bugs ;)

First: By providing a much more comfortable "vote system" with a menue or easily accessible interface. Many players (me included) dont even know there is one if they play for the first time and actualy cant always remember what is needed to type in to make someone either a "admin" or start a "kick voting" regarding rempaging team killing players. Other Multi player games offer much easier solutions. Second: A "punish system", which could work in a way that if you get team killed by someone the game immediately offers you two options how to proceed with the situation with the option to either "forgive" or "not forgive" the team killer with the result that if he has to many unforgiven team kills (letz say 3 or 5 or make that number even adjustable) he will be be kicked out of the server automaticaly, without any admin needed. Third: an easy accessible score board with player names, kills and team kills regardles which squad the player is in or anything else. Why is the game forcing me to cycle trough 2-3 menues and windows to get the informations about ONE player. Almost any game offers you a list with every name shown and a way to easily see all needed informations. Arma is overloaded sometimes with to much informations in some parts that are also very small written. Its hard to find a certain player by name for example. Fourth: If you shoot a plane/vehicle/helicopter and it is crashing cause you shoot the engine you should get the team kills, not the pilot. Simple. If you get in a plane aim for your own spawn and jump out before its crashing, it should count as a team kill for the pilot. (This can be achieved trough programming and code, I know it such things are present in quite a few of multiplayer games I have, like Darkest Hour or Red Orchestra Ostfront which remembers the player in the vehicle and who shoot it, bee it friendly or not. If it happens that you use a bazooka to kill the engine, the driver is jumping out and its exploding any friendly near it will count as a team kill for the bazooka guy!) There are definetly ways and possibilites to if not completely "stop" team killing idiots but make it a lot harder and less rewarding for them to start such a behaviour. In RO we had for a short time many issues with team killers (most not delibaretly though) after the invention of the "Forgive - not forgive" system it wasnt any serious issue anymore.

sorry alex, but I am when it comes to that I am more in the mod of a "casual gamer" as said it takes anyway already enough time to find servers with "players" around and I really feel not the need to get on a page, get their password, search for the server which might not even have people on (which is likely). This community is not very big compared to other games like DoD, CS or even Insurgency where you have the choice of several hundert different servers and thousands of players. call me lazy if you want, but other Multiplayer games manage quite well to have limitations inside that keep such people and idiots simply away. Red Orchestra for example would automaticaly KICK anyone out of the game that gets more then 2-3 team kills where people dont "forgive" the team killer. When you set a enemy vehicles engine on fire, you would still get a team kill message when it explodes (which seems to not happen in Arma it seems tha the pilot ALWAYS gets the team kills).

the only question I would have regarding this "addon" is if it will come with a fix regarding spawn killing and people that have only a rampage in mind Example: Flying a plaine in the spawn crashing it in the players but jumping out before the crash Example: shoot the engine of friendly helicopters, wheels of cars, etc. etc.

I can only agree with this, the game has been ruined so many times by team killing idiots (not just in PVP engagements) that it really loost a lot of fun. I sadly barrely play the game anymore cause when ever I get the feeling to have some fun and start the game I get remembered that there is a high chance for idiots which might start a complete mayhem on some server killing shoot your engine while you start a helicopter or just crash a plane in the spawn and it takes anyway enough time to find a server, with people playing on, and that in a setting you feel fine with (I am really not one that is thinking the "capture the flag" modus is something that suits Arma ... but thats just me)

Even if it would mean to get killed cause you did not returned fire in a emergency situation? Which I am not sure if it would be realistic. At least in a Tank like the Leopard 2 the guner has the authority to engange a target that would be a "immediate" threat to the vehicle regardless of the order from the commander. You haev to avoid to receive a hit at all costs and when you know that any second the enemy will tourn its turret toward you to shoot you you dont hesitate even a second to shoot him before he would shoot you. The commander is obviously always the bigest authority, but here also comes in the individual responsibility of every usual soldier toward his squad and own life. Soldiers are not robots, they are human beeings and even in a training situation you are teached to react before thinking when in firefights or engagements as thinking will cost time while you might be injured or in the worst case simply dead. And even the strictest order regarding a "cease fire" can be bypassed when either your life or those of your squad is in "direct" and "immediate" danger. Though what that is now, is a bit left to everyone personaly. What though I think is the issue is that the AI has not a clear "definiton" sometimes about what a immediate threat is to them. A target 10m infront of you that will raise its rifle any second toward you and shoot is of course a danger that you will shoot regardless of orders. But to engange targets far away that have not spoted you yet and just will alarm the whole enemy force will definetly be a issue.

I was adressing this issue and asking for a solution some time back, with the result that most people seem to like to play the game that way (with every soldier get a anti tank option as default when the round starts ...) and that its in the "responsibility of the mission makers". From that time the game loost a lot of fun for me in PVP matches since at least 3/4 of all public matches do not force any kind of restriction on the player, so far I have not even meet any PVP/PvAI matches with restrictions. Just a question: Why no "class restrictions"?

The speed of vehicles is "alright". The only thing that I miss is "gears" (at least with cars) AND most important a option which is not forcing me all the time to presh the "forward button" to have the vehicle drive/fly. Particlarly on biger distances this is sometimes a bit annoying as you have to presh it all the time or your vehicle is loosing its speed completely. If you would have some option so the vehicle would just drive without the need to presh a button all the time you could chatt without loosing speed or the need to stop.

I had no experience with Arma I. But this seem to give a different picture. What ever if a community is small or not or if it really was a serous issue in the last game (though I am sure it happend from time to time it does always ...) I dont think it would be to much to ask for a few things from Bohemia to include in their game by default.

how are armor values not working on vehicles particularly tanks ?

I am just curious why the game allows for unlimited restrictions regarding many weapon systems. Example would be games in Player vs. Player or Players vs AI where many server have ammo crates in the spawn that allow everyone to carry almost any weapon (with a few small limitations) I am just curious why it is even possible afterall? Its somewhat a bit strange in a game about realism and simulation to see every second soldier armed with either a anti tank or anti air weapon. It kinda removes the point of teamwork and communication in my eyes. With the SMAW in particular every soldier can literay become a tank/vehicle destroying rambo that also can use a scoped weapon (either the M24, M21 or M16 even). I ackowledge that using anti tank weapons is not rocket science but its somewhat ontrarious to the meaning of squad/teamplay in a realistic scenario since you dont have that way no reason to fear enemy vehicles cause you can carry your main weapon and any anti vehicle weapon you want without much punishment or restrictions. Quite a few arcade shooters I know (Day of Defeat) even had a somewhat more realistic system for example regarding anti tank weapons as you could not carry a main weapon while using a anti tank weapon (Panzerschreck). while the Panzerschreck is a much more heavier anti tank weapon then modern systems - particularly anything comparable to a LAW or Panzerfaust 3 - and soldiers usualy can use them without the need to give up their main weapon and are trained to use most usual anti tank weapons its still a bit strange to see everyone runing around with one. Same to the fact that almost everyone can jump in a vehicle and driving away which makes the use of "roles" like a Pilot, Crew, Anti Tank/Anti Air specialist somewhat useless on many servers. I know that it depends a lot on server options. But I think that Bohemia gave a bit to much freedom regarding "arcade play" since its not supportive to the immersion of a real battlefield and the need to "comunicate" and "play together". I hope one does not see it as a rant as I am just curious as why they went in such a direction.

I hope it will not end that one will ned a shit load of scripts that the game is working "good" if you know what I mean. I really hate to tweak my games with features that should be present in the game already from day 1 as default. But thats just my oppinion.

What I am talking about are multiplayer standarts. Like: Spawn protection, of players and vehicles (at least for the main spawn) Like: The game to remember who shoot a vehicle, and thus even if you jump out of it it counts as kill or team kill for you (to many times I have been killed "by my self" that way cause someome aimed his chopper in my direction or vehicle) Like: The game to show the player that shoot the engine of vehicles Like: a comfortable vote menue and scoreboard that is easy to see without the use of "command lines" that most people dont know Like: not let the driver get the team kills regardless if the guner shoot the people Like: A forgive system. If you team kill someome the killed person should get the option to "forgive you" or "not forgive you". If you kill to much people and they dont forgive you you should get "kicked out" emediately. I think after 2 games, years of multiplayer experience etc. one can really demand a "bit" more from a company like Bohemia regarding such issues. Particularly since those kind of people that do nothing else then start chaos on server really start to completely destroy the fun of the game. They also could have included the said features you listed (battleeye?) from the begining. But with the things I said above it should maybe not even be needed. A "in game" system that works by default on all servers is always a better protection. Particularly in such a rather small community like Arma (compared to other MP games). A forgive feature and kick vote menue have been provided many times by modders with tools in countless multiplayer games since YEARS for now (almost always only done by the community!). Its still a riddle to me why it has not become a big standart in all MP games yet.

This kind of behaviour was already present since Arma I and they still did not cared about SIMPLE ways how to avoid it? Well I am not sure what to say though. Particularly when other MP games rather easily avoid such issues. This is their third MP game (never played Arma I), and they should have really thought about a few solutions by now ...

I had this issue once, though without any tree involved it happend on a small slope haning on the ground, with no ability to "jump" out of the parachute. Could do nothing else but respawn ...

I am NOT ignoring your or anyones point. But I cant help either if people (I dont mean anyone directly now) tends to ~eventualy overead my posts, which I agree can be confusing and pretty lengthy at times. But thats how I usualy writte cause I have the need to explain my position as detailed as possible (its a language barrier, english is not my native language). Point is. I know that you can indeed "use" restrictions with the editor. So if one would really want it he could make missions with absolute realistic restrictions regarding classes and their equipment. (*Thing is they just dont exist OR are not public/enjoyable enough yet. And by thinking about the replies here I somewhat have the doubt it will change drasticaly in the future. But thats just my impression) But what I find strange is why almost no where any of such missions get played or made. Particularly in a COOP style of gameplay where every game I seen so far was with A ) no restrictions at all and B ) almost always the same kind of mission (capture Town A.B.C etc. in random order with a few random side missions). And this kind of gamestyle become very fast, very easy and very repetitive. Particualrly cause you have no restrictions from a realistic point of view. I am not "blaming" Bohemia, the Mission makers or anyone. Hell I would do it probably the same way (from yours and their point of view) and work out things that most people like to play. I just was curious if the vibe in this community is in the same dirction (which seems likely) and loves this kind of gamestyle in general which leaves me with the impression that many like to play a "one role can do *almost* all" situation on the field. Your position as mission maker is a entirely different one compared to mine as "pure realism/simulation" gamer. You enjoy the freedom from a point of creativity (I as artist would not like either if someome would tell me that I am forced to use only ONE part of tool and colour for example so I can definetly relate your point). But you mentioned that you almost never play MP, and use most of your time playing with the editor. So I hope that you see what I mean when I say we are both ~somewhat biased but everyone in a different direction. Exactly one of the points I talk about. I mean I definetly would be a lot less thinking about it if the diversty regarding it would be a lot higher and the player numbers supporting it. But for NOW it seems to me at least that almost all games coop and PvP together consist of 2-3 modes which have almost all infantry runing around with weapon systems they from a realistic point of view would have no access to (again what you pick up at the battlefield is a different story and completely O.K! Thing is that you dont have the NEED to pick anything up cause, simply you have a similar weaponsystem already in your inventory ...) One piont is that if it really proves to be the most popular game style that will dominate the future then I really proabably went in to this game with absolutely false expectations and it might be nothing for my taste not in long term at least. Which makes neither me right or Bohemia/Mission makers wrong. It is how it is. Just a difference of oppinions and targets.

Its often enough though the only kind of advantage you have against the AI since I am not sure sometimes how well the AI in the game is affected by its suroundings and the enviroment. Its a borderline situation since many times it seems like they just stand around while you shoot them, other times they know your position even behind the bigest debris and cover. I had quite a lot of situations where behind thick foilage the enemy still managed to shoot me (without giving a shoot before). I think the space bar is a unrealistic adantage, but its here to counter different as well unrealistic aspect of the game, the AI behaviour for example. As sad as its sound but I would give everyone the suggestion to tourn off grass. Well ... why? Cause its effect in arma 2 is really nothing more then cosmetic and more a handicap then a way to hidde. Particularly cause even if you have all details on full you STILL dont see grass and some parts of foliage on large distance which makes it much easier to spot someome in the game compared to real life (actualy it would be past 1500m even not possible anymore to spot most vehicles. Particularly if they have a similar colour sheme like the foliage!). So well ... yeah. A big issue in my eyes as well. But its not just a issue for Arma 2. A lot of games have to fight with that, for examople STALKER:Shadow of Chernobyle removed exactly cause of the issue with grass the possibility to prone in the game as they found no soluton to avoid the issues with grass AI and other players which remove grass. Red Orchestra gives map makers the ability to dissable the feature to turn off grass. But almost no map makes there much use of grass anyway. And even if there is some its not very big. I would have liked to see a focus in the game on "low" grass instead of big bushes. Comparable to velds in Siberia which would have fitt the gameplay a lot better.