Free Zoom vs Spotting Soldiers in Concealment

[Tangox5 10]

This is an attempt to have a discussion that was stamped out pretty dubiously in the now locked thread here.

Obviously as far as the mod aspect is concerned, "If you don't like it don't do it" isn't the least bit helpful since the whole need for such a mod is for multiplayer. The mod or lack thereof isn't that interesting but there was raised this point:

The limits of rendering a scene with pixels on a monitor make spotting things harder than you'd be able to in real life.

Essentially, there is less resolution, but without getting technical anyone can probably see that it's easier to see in real life than at low res on a pc monitor.

So, therefore, we should have some amount of zoom built in to the player so he can see things about as well as he'd be able to in real life.

I understand the argument.

It's the wrong way to approach it. The goal should not be to make things on your monitor look as sharp as they do in real life, but to make it about as hard to spot soldiers in the game as it would be in real life. That's a very big difference. Here's why.

In real life, there is considerably more "clutter" and much less "shimmer" (on moving objects that are only a couple pixels). It is much harder to spot infantry in concealment in real life than it is in Arma2.

In addition, in Arma2 there is not enough concealment (especially since all that terrain and vegetation disappears after some short distance.)

That's without using the zoom. Add the zoom and it gets ridiculous.

You can spot infantry hiding in woods, for example, from hundreds of meters away. Take a man standing next to a tree 300m away. You can see him with a quick scan at zoomed levels. In real life you'd just never make him out, there is too much clutter. This is incidentally a principle in camouflage. It's why a Ghillie suit works better than plain clothes, even if the clothes are a more matching colour to the terrain.

What we should care about is how any tool such as this affects *gameplay*. If having it one way leads to realistic spotting distances while having it the other way leads to unrealistic spotting ability, we should prefer the former.

When you try to *increase the player resolution* to a state comparable to *real life* you make it ridiculously easy to spot anything. The lack of resolution in the game compared with real life is canceled out when you consider just how much easier it is to see things in the game.

The only time giving a free zoom ability to players is going to "fit" is when Arma2 can also render terrain at realistic levels of "clutter". When that time comes, by all means let me zoom in on signposts and read them at the same distance I could in real life. :P

Thanks for listening.

[LJF 0]

Okay I think I get what you mean now, so you're saying that the zoom (hold right click) should be removed? If so, I'm all for that.

Personally I think it should be taken 1 step further - no zoom on iron sights. Should be done like Red Orchestra.

Would make scopes much more .... scope-ish and iron-sights much more iron-sight-ish. The fact that "zooming" with your iron-sights is almost as effective as an Acog is ridiculous.

[STALKERGB 6]

In addition, in Arma2 there is not enough concealment (especially since all that terrain and vegetation disappears after some short distance.)

There is a grass layer to compensate for this in ARMA so that at distance units are concealed IIRC.

I can't say I can spot someone in a forest a few hundered meters away, might just be me though.

[tacticalnuggets 24]

This thread is spot on. Although you can tilt your head forward, the degree to which you zoom in ArmA2 is plain insane. I think a better alternative to zoom is sharpening lods. There are many times that zooming in gives its benefit not just from looking closer, but from seeing more detailed models. Replacing zoom with something that will up the quality of things at a distance in a circular center of your screen, then blurring everything around it would give the same affect of intense focus in real life! And I'm sure its 100% possible.

Its a very exciting idea, but I'm into multiplayer mission scripting, not addon making, so I dont know how to start and if its even worth trying to attempt due to addons only being used by a few people.

[cartier90 0]

Tango - sigh - do you have any idea how impossible it would be to hit someone at 300m without the zoom ?, try it....having a target of a single pixel is not 'fair' on a player considering - what you have already mentioned - the much higher 'resolution' IRL. With sub 1 moa eyesight - an average human would be able to distinguish more than a binary 'dot' or nothing.

Anyway, most of the weapons are scoped - combine this with the local grass layer , often hindering the players FOV, the 'sunken' aspect of players afar and you do have difficult to spot players.

[Placebo 29]

When I close a thread, it's for a reason, it's not acceptable to simply start up a new thread because you feel like it, I made it clear the topic belongs in the pinned Addon request thread, it especially does not belong in the General discussion forum. It is not acceptable either for you to disagree on the forums with moderating decisions, you received a link to the forum rules when you signed up, I would suggest you re-read them please. Next time I'd suggest you try doing it without breaking forum rules, ie leave out your opinion on moderators or moderating decisions.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Placebo