Mid east

[Oligo 1]

Quoting Albert:

"Why did you put it all into Italic? Was tough to read!"

To point out that the text was not written by me. Sorry if it was rough on your binoculars.

"I dont realy like the comment, even though it might be from a well reputed magazine such as TIME. I dont like when journalists play through a whole war-scenario, how wrong can it go?"

The author of the article was not a journalist proper, but a military analyst. And I hope you noticed he didn't absolutely predict the outcome of the worst case scenario, he just estimated the odds against the arabs to be quite bad.

"There are too many factors in the equation that just can go wrong! Furthermore I think you cannot calculate war by saying: okay we got 1000 tanks on the left side and 500 on the right side, but the right side can kick 3 before it gets kicked, so the right side wins! "

In the last wars, the israelis have always kicked all the surrounding arabs around. Now that the balance of force is even more on the israeli side, which way would you bet the scale of war would tip in a new conflict?

"That is a silly estimation. Furthermore I think it is a total missuse to estimate the presence and possible impact of Anthrax (I think he/she slightly downplays its power.)"

As I have pointed out earlier, Anthrax probably IS a lesser threat than depicted by media, as judged from the ACTUAL events where Anthrax has been released into populated areas and not from flawed simulations.

"One of the reasons is that war-material doesnt queue up to fight one against one. In WWII the russians often send thousands of soldiers just to 'entertain' the germans while attacking elsewhere. The same could be done with Israels airforce too."

If this was the russians facing off against Israelis, I wouldn't bet anything on either side. But the performance of the arab troops in the region has been abysmal at best in the past. And I think the arab leaders know this, thus I don't really see any danger to the existence of Israel (except maybe in Sharon's paranoid mind).

"My thesis therefore is: Israel could face a war with one country, but would not be capable to face the Arab world on a multi-country front, especially not if seen in the long term! I agree though that the arab armies are a bunch of .....XXX.....; Big numbers but small reality!"

Israel is not going to face arab armies as in defence. In the event of arab buildup, Israel is going to launch a pre-emptive strike and wipe the offending armies off the face of the Jane's Defence Review. Besides, Israel probably has nukes. They're perfectly safe from extermination. Sharon is only playing the old fears to get what he wants.

[pirate 0]

i've read almost all the comments about this issue. Lots of good points isued from the both sides. Bur i'm afraid noone is realisng a fact that fundementalists terorists only receive orders from their leaders. No hamas or hizbullah terorist would care to a word from Arafat. Arafat is losing power because he compromised with the israelies earlier.

i quite understand avon because i'm from a country who had terrorist roaming around for about a decade. Belive me it is not plesant to fear bombs while sitting in a cafe! Even if your cause SEEMS just you have no right to kill civilians. if you do the issue of nationalism just skyhighs (as of Avon's). And this just escalates the fightings and terrorism.

What we did we captured the terrorist leader. And all is almost over. No more gunfights and nomore bombs.

Why cant israel do the same. Get the hamas and hizbullah leaders one by one. israel has all the means to make that possible.(intel and arms)

And than Arafat will gain his old strength to convince the people to stick to the peaceplans. But instead israel lead the attacks and again nationalism.. so the cycle just goes on...

israel is right to take measures but these measures will NOT end anything. Take my word for it we lived through these

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (pirate @ April 16 2002,11:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">.

Why cant israel do the same. Get the hamas and hizbullah leaders one by one. israel has all the means to make that possible.(intel and arms)<span id='postcolor'>

Because those groups are not only located in palestine, and because suicide bombers do not exactly get born in this position but can easily be recruited (you dont even need fancy training camps for them.

Oligo. Now if you talk about a fight of exsistance, staying alive or dead, having nukes or not, then you are actually going further with this scenario than I would ever. Countries can hardly get fully wiped out nowadays. Simply not possible due to international networking (alliances, export-improt dependance). If you dare to wipe out a country nowadays you will be wiped out yourself. The best example is Iraq.

I was rather thinking about a war of decades, with little battles now and then and the constant threat of enemies at the border. This already can throw country back into stone-age. Just imagine Isreal would have to fully secure and protect its borders with the constant threat of military attack (not teenagers with AK like right now). Then after a while the economie would stop progressing and only producing deficits. This can have a worse impact than a few 'dead settlers' or a lost 'chopper'. Israel has a hard time already in the Middle East. They are fully surrounded by arab states, which at the moment, not actually represent a threat? But what if? You dont need to send nukes and missiles to get Isreals attention. Just position a few tanks near the border. They constantly need to be awake, and without sleep, noone can be productive!  

( i know that I am not realy refering to or neglecting your comment, I just want to guide the discussion to the question: what is gonna happen in the far future. Can Israel ever rest?)

[pirate 0]

Albert schweizer

the terrorist leader i am referrring was hiding in syria and was captured by us in KENYA...

incase fo national security there is no such excuse as not being in your borders you find and eliminate all leaders, not simple ignorant footsoldiers becasue the supplie will be immense. leadres dont appear that random

[scout 0]

unfortunatly for us, massacre is much more news worthy then a battle, sabra and shatila is much more news worthy then armed gunmen who cynicly use civvies as human shields, and the next reporter that is comparing auchwitz to Jenin is better not come near me!

here are couple of fact straight from the field:

1. there were discovered couple of gunmen's bodies  that were carring explosive belts.

2. one of the company's CO is a worker in the water company, and, on his own started to fix it up.

3. the rescue squads of the IDF are working day and night there.

4. i might remind u all AGAIN that if we really wanted to slaughter we would use Napalm, cluster bombs and such, and wouldnt endanger the lives of so many people (ours).

5. its still dangerous to walk around because of all the booby traps laid by the gunmen around, regardless of their own ppl!

6.that small kids were sent to throw charges upon israeli soldiers.

7. that after 2 days, couple of APC's approached the hospital, with bodies, and were turned around by the hospital

all these talks in the media "500 civvies dead"

"dead scattered" etc, is plain propoganda by the PA aided by "respected" reporters only because it will get them some more viewers.

if in the end, it'll turn out to be a hoax, like many others, will the world media admit they were wrong?

the answer is no. and what everyone will remember is that in Jenin was a massacre, no matter what really happened.

by the way, the red cross has a local branch, which is composed from locals and as such have always delievered false data, the best example is the ambulances.

edit: damnit, i misspell badly when im fused!

[scout 0]

here is a link maybe explaining better what im saying:

another view

[Longinius 1]

"unfortunatly for us, massacre is much more news worthy then a battle, sabra and shatila is much more news worthy then armed gunmen who cynicly use civvies as human shields,"

Well, the IDF place captured suspects as shields in front of the tanks. So, that seems to occur on both sides doesnt it?

"and the next reporter that is comparing auchwitz to Jenin is better not come near me!"

Me neither. Clearly there are no gaschambers or barbed wire around Jenin.

"here are couple of fact straight from the field:

1. there were discovered couple of gunmen's bodies that were carring explosive belts.

2. one of the company's CO is a worker in the water company, and, on his own started to fix it up.

3. the rescue squads of the IDF are working day and night there.

4. i might remind u all AGAIN that if we really wanted to slaughter we would use Napalm, cluster bombs and such, and wouldnt endanger the lives of so many people (ours)."

No, you wouldnt. Cause then there would be no plausible denial and no doubt whatsoever. Just like Screbrenica, if you want to do a massacre, do it so noone sees it. Sure, there will be bodies missing but then you can atleast claim you didnt do it. Noone is going to massacre people in plain sight anymore, that just wont happen.

"5. its still dangerous to walk around because of all the booby traps laid by the gunmen around, regardless of their own ppl!"

Yes, the booby traps. And the fact that the IDF fires on just about anyone they can. Just yesterday a Swedish newsteam came under fire. First from a tank, fireing warning shots as they had passed a roadblock. They stopped, turned around and started to head back and then came under sniperfire from the IDF.

"6.that small kids were sent to throw charges upon israeli soldiers.

7. that after 2 days, couple of APC's approached the hospital, with bodies, and were turned around by the hospital"

Yeah, ofcourse they were.

"all these talks in the media "500 civvies dead"

"dead scattered" etc, is plain propoganda by the PA aided by "respected" reporters only because it will get them some more viewers."

So you really expect the Palestinians in Jenin were bulletproof and able to withstand crumbling buildings and bulldozers?

"if in the end, it'll turn out to be a hoax, like many others, will the world media admit they were wrong?"

I know I will. I will admit to the fact that I thought there was a massacre but there wasnt.

"the answer is no. and what everyone will remember is that in Jenin was a massacre, no matter what really happened."

Doubtful.

"by the way, the red cross has a local branch, which is composed from locals and as such have always delievered false data, the best example is the ambulances."

Yeah, I suppose the international aidworkers are lying aswell. Probably because they have nothing better to do.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 17 2002,08:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, the IDF place captured suspects as shields in front of the tanks. So, that seems to occur on both sides doesnt it?<span id='postcolor'>

i'd really like to know where that came from.

no, i dont expect ppl to be bullet proof. thats why we sent infantry first. to make sure that if we bulldoze someone itll be an arms carrying one. thats why we sustained so much casualties.

thats why civvies were called to move out with loud-speakers on the night of the attack.

[Longinius 1]

"no, i dont expect ppl to be bullet proof. thats why we sent infantry first. to make sure that if we bulldoze someone itll be an arms carrying one. thats why we sustained so much casualties.

thats why civvies were called to move out with loud-speakers on the night of the attack."

Your casualties are not much when compared to the number of killed Palestinians.

[scout 0]

thats because our soldiers are better trained.

[Longinius 1]

"thats because our soldiers are better trained."

And because most of the killed Palestinians are civilians.

[scout 0]

ill say ney to that. they wear civilian cloths maybe but they are carrying arms

fact is that the palestinians have much less civvies casualties then us!

[Longinius 1]

Well, all these matters can be disputed as there are no clear cut facts.

A fact however is that this war will not end until one side has been exterminated. I assume you are a jew and as such have read hole scriptures. I also assume that jewish scriptures contain much of the same words as wisdom as the bible does. Basically, evil begets evil.

How can you expect peace as long as you bulldoze their homes, go in with guns blazing and keep pressing? Even if you kill all the present terrorists, do you really believe that the next generation will look with kind eyes on Israel after seeing those x nr of terrorists killed at the cost of x times 2 nr of civilians?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 17 2002,07:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ill say ney to that. they wear civilian cloths maybe but they are carrying arms

fact is that the palestinians have much less civvies casualties then us!<span id='postcolor'>

Isn't that very hard to prove? I mean, you said yourself that the armed palestinians are wearing civilian clothes? Don't you think it is likely that if a civilian is killed by accident, that the soldiers who killed him might say that he was carrying a gun in their report?

[Markov 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 17 2002,07:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ill say ney to that. they wear civilian cloths maybe but they are carrying arms

fact is that the palestinians have much less civvies casualties then us!<span id='postcolor'>

You know in Kosova, the muslim terrorists (they were attacking Serb police often, which caused the 'ethnic cleansing' dressed their KIA members in civilian clothing, and they removed all weapons/camo stuff...to make it look like they were being killed by Uniformed 'nazi' Serbs.

It' would be safe to say that the IDF has the same problem, a Pal is killed his brethren remove all weapons he had, and make him look like a saint, so the media then reports that IDF are monsters..outrageous!

[Longinius 1]

"Isn't that very hard to prove? I mean, you said yourself that the armed palestinians are wearing civilian clothes? Don't you think it is likely that if a civilian is killed by accident, that the soldiers who killed him might say that he was carrying a gun in their report?"

No, cause the Jews are the Chosen People. They are perfect. They are übermench. They never lie, they never break the rules and they never ever commit warcrimes. They just want lebensraum. Didn't you know?

[Longinius 1]

"It' would be safe to say that the IDF has the same problem, a Pal is killed his brethren remove all weapons he had, and make him look like a saint, so the media then reports that IDF are monsters..outrageous!"

Yeah, cause the recent pictures of killed women of the age 60 and above prove this. We all know every Palestinian senior citizen is an elite fighter. The same goes for those killed in the hospitals. They were doing the fighting from their beds. Also, those men and women that were killed as the IDF shot through their doors when going in were ALL enemy agents. There is no such thing as a civilian Palestinian. They are all a part of the Antisemtic Arab Elit Force, known as the AAEF. They are born with a bombbelt and an AK 47, which they keep on their person at all times. This makes every Palestinian a legit target since there are no innocents, no civilians. Just combatants.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 17 2002,08:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Isn't that very hard to prove? I mean, you said yourself that the armed palestinians are wearing civilian clothes? Don't you think it is likely that if a civilian is killed by accident, that the soldiers who killed him might say that he was carrying a gun in their report?"

No, cause the Jews are the Chosen People. They are perfect. They are übermench. They never lie, they never break the rules and they never ever commit warcrimes. They just want lebensraum. Didn't you know?<span id='postcolor'>

Hmm.. did somebody wake on the wrong side today?

[Longinius 1]

"Hmm.. did somebody wake on the wrong side today?"

Nah, I just feel really, really sarcastic.

[scout 0]

to prove.....yes its hard to prove but i know from experience that we shoot only on armed men, and yes its hard to distinguish but we do our best. sometimes there are civilian casualties, especially if they are mingled with armed gunmen

and longinius, u seem to forget that prior to the past month we pretty much kept us at check since Oct. 2000 and before that. the way of peace was rejected by them, and we havent got any cheeks left to serve

[Markov 0]

I was refering only to members of known fighting units that are killed, not to non-targeted killing.

Anyway, I look at all sides...the guy at this site goes on week after bloody week about how Jews are wrong, and bad asses.

If you want to look outside the scope of 'acceptable' opinion I suggest hearing that guy out. I bring this as a neutral party, caring for neither the Jews or Nationalists hostile to Jews.

[scout 0]

if we would target everyone, we would end it really fast.........really fast!

[Longinius 1]

"to prove.....yes its hard to prove but i know from experience that we shoot only on armed men, and yes its hard to distinguish but we do our best. sometimes there are civilian casualties, especially if they are mingled with armed gunmen"

This is an obvious lie since you HAVE fired on journalists for example. And on civilians, as shown in newspapers all over the world. I am thinking of the picture showing two dead people in a home, one elderly woman and one man. They were shot by the IDF through the door.

[Markov 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 17 2002,08:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">if we would target everyone, we would end it really fast.........really fast!<span id='postcolor'>

. . . LOL

[Guest]

Yes, civilians have been killed. But I doubt that it was on purpouse, at least not officially. What the individual soldiers/commanders do is another question. As scout pointed out, if they were out to kill everybody then this would all go to a very quick end.