Mid east

[Akira 0]

Egypt -- which was the first Arab country to sign a peace treaty with Israel -- announced it was suspending all ties with Israel except for diplomatic contacts.

Not sure what exactly THAT means. Suspension of diplomatic ties is usually the first sign of potential hostilities. What other ties did Egypt and Israel have?

Why is no one bringing up the hypocritical muslim conference that called Israels actions "state-sponsored terrorism" but didn't come anywhere close to calling the suicide bombers terrorists? The original reason for the meeting was to head of "muslim bashing" and to come to a consensus among muslim states as to the definition of terrorism. Unfortunately the conference was increasingly hijacked by the escalating Middle East conflict. I think they failed horribly.

[RedRogue 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 04 2002,16:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RedRogue @ April 04 2002,17:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">please tell me why Israeli tanks needed to run over civilian vehicles when advancing into Bethlehem.<span id='postcolor'>

Because they were used to block the streets by the PA. This is your problem? Chances are those may have been Israeli cars anyway.    

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Other than the men/women crewing those vehicles have no morality when it concerns Palestinian property or life.<span id='postcolor'>

You got the wrong address, buster. Cry for their cars, the poor Palestinians.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Currently there is a close friend of my family that was  doing some missionary work thru the Southern Baptist here and was there to see the Nativity Church and the city of Bethlehem.

The last message recieved from her said she was not being allowed to leave Bethlehem, bodies of the dead lay in the streets as noone could get to them because of Palestinian and Israeli gunfire, and that food was  running low.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, sounds like a war, doesn't it? More on the Chruch of the Nativity here and here.<span id='postcolor'>

Well, frankly I know that I could never change your attitude one iota. Nor would I expect too, this is much closer to you than to me. Which makes it far easier for me to stand off and look objectively at this. But that is what its going to take on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides for this ever come to a close.

As for the tanks destroying civilian cars. There was a video clip on MSNBC if I remember correctly. It showed a Israeli armored column entering Bethlehem. The lead tank goes down a street that curves lightly side to side. And instead of actually trying to follow the street it just goes in a straight line deliberately running over cars parked quite normally along the curve.

But anyway I can't find the footage anymore and even if I could I can already see the refutale of: That wasn't from Bethlehem, or that wasn't current activities or etc.

I get the impression that you think all Palestinians are guilty and terrorists Avon. You mentioned population transfers as methods to employ to hold peace. Where are you going to transfer them too? There isn't alot of land to move them too.

And by forcefully moving them and keeping them there, most likely to the most worthless land available. You effectively destroy what little economy and infrasturcture they have. And in the end ultimately do to them what the "white men" did to Native Americans. Oh wait maybe this was the plan after all.

I'm expecting a proper badgering, as I was getting quite liberal towards the end.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RedRogue @ April 04 2002,18:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, frankly I know  that I could never change your attitude one iota. Nor would I expect too, this is much closer to you than to me. Which makes it far easier for me to stand off and look objectively at this.<span id='postcolor'>

Obviously, the same could be said about you. Personally, I don't find you opinions objective.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But that is what its going to take on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides for this ever come to a close.<span id='postcolor'>

No. Israel's been ready ages ago. It was Israel who foolishly agreed to Oslo's failed from the start land for peace formula. It was Israel who offered unilateral cease fires twice but the other side didn't want to join.

We're fed up with the even-handedness garbage.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for the tanks destroying civilian cars. There was a video clip on MSNBC if I remember correctly.  It showed a  Israeli armored column entering Bethlehem. The lead tank goes down a street that curves lightly side to side. And instead of actually trying to follow the street it just goes in a straight line deliberately running over cars parked quite normally along the curve.<span id='postcolor'>

While I've seen a clip or two, I don't know which one you are referring to and I have no idea what was going on in the tank commander's head when he drove that way. Crush terrorists who are potentially hiding between, underneath the cars maybe? Who knows. Maybe you would, too, if you had to fight this kind of war.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

But anyway I can't find the footage anymore and even if I could I can already see the refutale of: That wasn't from Bethlehem, or that wasn't current activities or etc.

<span id='postcolor'>

How about that was a highly unimpressive example, to begin with.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I get the impression that you think all Palestinians are guilty and terrorists Avon.<span id='postcolor'>

As a nation, they promote terrorism. They blatantly promote the destruction of the entire state of Israel. This is the esssential problem here.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You mentioned population transfers as methods to employ to hold peace. Where are you going to transfer them too? There isn't alot of land to move them too.<span id='postcolor'>

Gaza (I would remove all Jewish establishments from there), Lebanon and Jordan, the latter's population being 70% Palestinian already. Don't remindKing Husssein - it gives him goosebumps.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And by forcefully moving them and keeping them there, most likely to the most worthless land available. You effectively destroy what little economy and infrasturcture they have.<span id='postcolor'>

They've done quite a good job of destroying it themselves.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And in the end ultimately do to them what the "white men" did to Native Americans.  Oh wait maybe this was the plan after all.<span id='postcolor'>

It is the Jews that the Arabs have attempted to throw into the sea all these years and not vice versa. Sorry we didn't lose.

[scout 0]

heck rouge.

where were u in 1993 when while there were peace talks, suicide bombers blew themselves up in busses? was it from dispair too?

if Arafat wants peace so much why is there the worst kind of anti-semitic stuff in school books? from the "happy" years of 1993-1995?

why in his first speech in Gaza he announce that he's gonna "throw the jews to the sea"?

why, while we educated our people for peace they did it for war?

why did u wake up now? why didn't u wake when we were been slaughtered and didnt respond?

it amazes me that when u hear about an attack thats targeted on israeli civilians all u hear is some kind of a low buzzz, but when we try to go after the shooters u scream on top of yer lungs on every scratch we do

what do u say about that church?

instead of being angry about those guys, who are using the church as a gun position so we couldnt react, and all i hear is "how dare these israelis siege the church!"

ho, and the priest they said we killed? ive never seen such a live corpse.

[Iepers 0]

This is my view of the situation.

who is to blame for all this?

Adolf Hitler

Why?

If it wasn't for him and his slaughter of innocent jews, they would all still be in Europe. After the war the Jews left Eurpoe and were promised a country of there own by the Bristish, that country then was plaenstine. So the jews came to this land hoping for a bright future.

But what some poeple seem to forget was that the Isreals at the time were terrorist themselves.

Bombing Bristish Buildings, military base's and killing inncoent brits.

Why because the Bristish did not want to leave.

Of course in time they left.

Cheers

[scout 0]

i want to correct u on something:

1. the land was promise by the british to israel in 1917.

2. when the underground attacked, the underground attacked only bases. in the event of "king david's" hotel, a warning was sent 2 Hrs. before the blast. the brits ignored.

3. the brits were strangely mute when jewish settelment were attacked by arabs but became more strangely active when we hit 'em back.

4. the brits tried to disarm the undergrounds while suppling weapons to the arab mobs.

5. the brits denied entry of jews who escaped Nazi europe, and in many cases sent 'em BACK.

6. any thing else u wanna say?

[InRange 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 04 2002,17:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RedRogue @ April 04 2002,18:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

<snip>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You mentioned population transfers as methods to employ to hold peace. Where are you going to transfer them too? There isn't alot of land to move them too.<span id='postcolor'>

Gaza (I would remove all Jewish establishments from there), Lebanon and Jordan, the latter's population being 70% Palestinian already. Don't remindKing Husssein - it gives him goosebumps.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And by forcefully moving them and keeping them there, most likely to the most worthless land available. You effectively destroy what little economy and infrasturcture they have.<span id='postcolor'>

They've done quite a good job of destroying it themselves.

<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

To the first point: Why would you want to move the Palestinians out of their own land?

To the second point: I didn't see no Palestinian tanks blow up their houses.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (InRange @ April 04 2002,19:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To the first point: Why would you want to move the Palestinians out of their own land?<span id='postcolor'>

Because they're not willing to let me live here. That has been problem number 1 since the start.

As in all the other wars here, the Arabs took to the offensive to try and make us disappear. In the past they lost. Tsk.

What will happen at the end of this war depends on the mercy of Heaven alone, as we Jews have been too dumb and blind to see and respond to the most obvious of attempts to exterminate the Jews and the State of Israel.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To the second point: I didn't see no Palestinian tanks blow up their houses.<span id='postcolor'>

"They have eyes but do not see" - Psalms.

I'm totally confused. Who are in the houses that Israeli tanks are firing on?

Hey! Did you know you could blow up supermarkets, buses, restaurants, offices and lots more without tanks and even when the people inside are simply having lunch, working, travelling home and so on?

Of course, you wouldn't know that, would you.

[ACEJim 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 04 2002,15:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 04 2002,11:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ April 04 2002,10:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't say israel stole that land,they had to go somewhere.Plus the other  middle-east countries sure didn't care when they control the land.<span id='postcolor'>

See you just don't know what you are talking about. According to the UN the building of Isreali settlements on palestinian land that was occupied during the various wars Isreal has had with its neighbours is a war crime.

Thats the land they've stolen.<span id='postcolor'>

Show me where. Thats the stupidest fuckin' thing I've ever heard.

Its not a war crime to sneak attack a country and try to utterly obliterate it....but it IS a war crime to push those jackasses back, taking some of their former land, and moving in.

Fuckin' retarded....<span id='postcolor'>

Read this monkey boy... and this actually from an Isreali website...

"On November 22, 1967, the UN Security Council adopted Resolution 242 as a framework for Arab-Israeli negotiations. The drafters of the resolution envisioned direct Arab-Israeli negotiations leading toward Arab-Israeli peace based on the principle that Israel would withdraw from areas acquired during the war.

The resolution called for the . . .Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; Termination of all claims of states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.

Arab-Israeli differences continued to prove insurmountable. The Arab states insisted that Resolution 242 called for a complete Israeli withdrawal from all the areas captured in 1967. The United States and Israel disagreed, stating that the resolution called for withdrawal from territories but did not define the scope of the withdrawal."

http://www.adl.org/Israel/Record/after67.html

Who's the retard now?

[ACEJim 0]

Oh and Avon, you may know this but with you talking about "population transfers" - Hitler planned to do the same... he planned to resettle all of Europe's Jews in Madagascar...

That was before he invaded Russia, and the war started going rather badly for him.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 04 2002,21:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh and Avon, you may know this but with you talking about "population transfers" - Hitler planned to do the same... he planned to resettle all of Europe's Jews in Madagascar...

That was before he invaded Russia, and the war started going rather badly for him.<span id='postcolor'>

If only that would have happened! But it didn't.

You've got something skewed in your WWII history dateline, as concentration camps and the "final solution" were already functioning way before the first German offensive against Russia.

As for Resolution 242, try reading the fine print.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 04 2002,21:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.<span id='postcolor'>

The Khartoum Resolutions

(September 1, 1967)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eight Arab heads of state attended an Arab summit conference in Khartoum during August 29 ­ September 1, 1967. It formulated the Arab consensus that underlay the policies of most Arab states participating in the conflict until the early 1970's. The resolution adopted called for the continued struggle against Israel, the creation of a fund to assist the economics of Egypt and Jordan, the lifting of an Arab oil boycott against the West and a new agreement to end the war in Yemen. By adopting the dictum of no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel and no negotiations with Israel, the Arab states appeared to have slammed the door on any progress towards peace.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TEXT:

1. The conference has affirmed the unity of Arab ranks, the unity of joint action and the need for coordination and for the elimination of all differences. The Kings, Presidents and representatives of the other Arab Heads of State at the conference have affirmed their countries' stand by and implementation of the Arab Solidarity Charter which was signed at the third Arab summit conference in Casablanca.

2. The conference has agreed on the need to consolidate all efforts to eliminate the effects of the aggression on the basis that the occupied lands are Arab lands and that the burden of regaining these lands falls on all the Arab States.

3. The Arab Heads of State have agreed to unite their political efforts at the international and diplomatic level to eliminate the effects of the aggression and to ensure the withdrawal of the aggressive Israeli forces from the Arab lands which have been occupied since the aggression of June 5. <span style='color:red'>This will be done within the framework of the main principles by which the Arab States abide, namely, no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it, and insistence on the rights of the Palestinian people in their own country.</span>

4. The conference of Arab Ministers of Finance, Economy and Oil recommended that suspension of oil pumping be used as a weapon in the battle. However, after thoroughly studying the matter, the summit conference has come to the conclusion that the oil pumping can itself be used as a positive weapon, since oil is an Arab resource which can be used to strengthen the economy of the Arab States directly affected by the aggression, so that these States will be able to stand firm in the battle. The conference has, therefore, decided to resume the pumping of oil, since oil is a positive Arab resource that can be used in the service of Arab goals. It can contribute to the efforts to enable those Arab States which were exposed to the aggression and thereby lost economic resources to stand firm and eliminate the effects of the aggression. The oil­producing States have, in fact, participated in the efforts to enable the States affected by the aggression to stand firm in the face of any economic pressure.

5. The participants in the conference have approved the plan proposed by Kuwait to set up an Arab Economic and Social Development Fund on the basis of the recommendation of the Baghdad conference of Arab Ministers of Finance, Economy and Oil.

6. The participants have agreed on the need to adopt the necessary measures to strengthen military preparation to face all eventualities.

7. The conference has decided to expedite the elimination of foreign bases in the Arab States.

[Pete 1]

population transfer....nice word for ethnic cleansing.

your a rasist avon, your opinions are no different than what was circling around in the head of milosevic, hitler...and other "famous" characters.

what happens to those who refuse to move, what happens if no neighboring country accepts them?..you throw them all into your "prison" in gaza?...will you simply shoot them?..would you care?

of course, there are many in palestine who are the mirrors of yourself, thinking the same way about israelis...sad to see that both settle with that and happily kill eachother...and the ones who dont agree with killing or ethnic cleansing also suffers cos of these fools....tsk tsk

perhaps we should send all the extremists from BOTH sides to madagaskar?

[ACEJim 0]

The Nazis actually refered to the plan to move the Jews to Madagascar as the Final Solution... Later they used the same term for the gassing in the death camps.

And you're right, the concentration camps were in use when Germany invaded Russia. (Since about 1934 in fact) However there were no death camps or gas chambers or anything like that at that time. The closest thing was organisation "T4" which operated "shower vans" to kill disabled (German) children.

The systematic mass murder began when the Nazis invaded Poland and later Russia and found there were too many jews there to be delt with as they'd done in Germany. And of course Hitler hated the Slavs and the Gypsies, which were also found in large numbers in Russia and Poland.

The Nazis started executing Jews and Slavs by lining them up beside a trench and shooting them in the head. Himmler realised that this was time consuming and expensive - ammunition and troops were used up that could have been used fighting the Red Army. And that's basicly how they came to start building the death camps...

And I'm not a Neo Nazi or anything, I'm studying Nazi Germany for A-Level.  

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pete @ April 04 2002,21:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">population transfer....nice word for ethnic cleansing.

your a rasist avon, your opinions are no different than what was circling around in the head of milosevic, hitler...and other "famous" characters.

what happens to those who refuse to move, what happens if no neighboring country accepts them?..you throw them all into your "prison" in gaza?...will you simply shoot them?..would you care?

of course, there are many in palestine who are the mirrors of yourself, thinking the same way about israelis...sad to see that both settle with that and happily kill eachother...and the ones who dont agree with killing or ethnic cleansing also suffers cos of these fools....tsk tsk

perhaps we should send all the extremists from BOTH sides to madagaskar?<span id='postcolor'>

Good, sonomore talk about making Jews leave Judea and Samaria. Glad taht's settled.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">your a rasist avon, your opinions are no different than what was circling around in the head of milosevic, hitler...and other "famous" characters.<span id='postcolor'>

Right. They start a war, want us out of here, I suggest that if they can't stand us here they should go somewhere else and this is like Hitler and Milesovic. Tell me more when you're sober.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what happens to those who refuse to move, what happens if no neighboring country accepts them?..you throw them all into your "prison" in gaza?

<span id='postcolor'>

Gaza, prison? You've just insulted the 100s of thousand of Gazans who call it home!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...will you simply shoot them?

<span id='postcolor'>

Like many other stupid posts on this thread, that was not suggested by me.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">..would you care?<span id='postcolor'>

Yes. Or is my answer insufficient?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">of course, there are many in palestine who are the mirrors of yourself, thinking the same way about israelis...sad to see that both settle with that and happily kill eachother...

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, the evenhandedness ploy again. Tsk tsk.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 04 2002,21:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Nazis actually refered to the plan to move the Jews to Madagascar as the Final Solution... Later they used the same term for the gassing in the death camps.<span id='postcolor'>

While it sounds like an argument in semantics, the Simon Wiesenthal Center refers to the MADAGASCAR PLAN separately from the FINAL SOLUTION:

http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/pages/t047/t04792.html

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And you're right, the concentration camps were used when Germany invaded Russia. However there were no death camps or gas chambers or anything like that at that time. The closest thing was organisation "T4" which operated "shower vans" to kill disabled children.

The systematic mass murder began when the Nazis invaded Poland and later Russia and found there were too many jews there to be delt with as they'd done in Germany.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes. A detailed history of German concentration camps can be found here:

http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/text/x05/xm0553.html

[Pete 1]

Tell me more when you're sober.

Quote  

what happens to those who refuse to move, what happens if no neighboring country accepts them?..you throw them all into your "prison" in gaza?

Gaza, prison? You've just insulted the 100s of thousand of Gazans who call it home!

1: i dont drink..im sober, and you?

2: for me it sounded as a prison as you suggested to lock in all palestinians there, surrounded by israel (and that big wall around it..or am i wrong?) who acts as a prisonguard and decides what goes in and what goes out of it....

prison or home?...atleast you can leave home as you please, cant you?

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 04 2002,20:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"On November 22, 1967, the UN Security Council adopted Resolution 242 as a framework for Arab-Israeli negotiations. The drafters of the resolution envisioned direct Arab-Israeli negotiations leading toward Arab-Israeli peace based on the principle that Israel would withdraw from areas acquired during the war.

The resolution called for the . . .Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; Termination of all claims of states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force.

Arab-Israeli differences continued to prove insurmountable. The Arab states insisted that Resolution 242 called for a complete Israeli withdrawal from all the areas captured in 1967. The United States and Israel disagreed, stating that the resolution called for withdrawal from territories but did not define the scope of the withdrawal."

http://www.adl.org/Israel/Record/after67.html

Who's the retard now?<span id='postcolor'>

A- What the deal. Don't remember insulting you but if you want to degenerate into a 3rd grade name calling contest we can....

B- I don't see anything in there about it being a war crime....

[Bonfire 0]

well, i'm going to offer up my humble opinion.

I've been watching these events in the middle east, and i've been trying to get the most unbias news i can.

In situations such as these, i find news about the events can be one sided and almost like propiganda in nature. for instance, the US is allies with Isreal, and when i watch news on ABC, i find it to be more favoring Isreal as the good guys.

Walking onto a crowded bus and blowing yourself up is no way to fight a war. equally, driving tanks into refugee camps and demolishing buildings is no way to fight a war. I have sympathy for both sides really, sympathy in the fact that innocent people are dieing there every single day.

I don't agreee with the whole situation. (in my limited knowledge of things) I find that Isreals efforts to thwart terrorism is perhaps just an excuse to continue fighting. And I find that both sides are perhaps to proud to work for peace.

in the end, i think this pride will be the downfall of both.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pete @ April 04 2002,22:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2: for me it sounded as a prison as you suggested to lock in all palestinians there, surrounded by israel (and that big wall around it..or am i wrong?) who acts as a prisonguard and decides what goes in and what goes out of it....<span id='postcolor'>

What? I'm sure that their loving brothers, the Egyptians, will open their joint borders wide open and doeverything possible to help the Palestinians prosper and bloom.

What do you expect? Us to hire them as reliable and safe workers? Never again, I hope, unless they do a 720 degree turnaround (once is not enough).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">prison or home?...atleast you can leave home as you please, cant you?<span id='postcolor'>

We have not gone shopping in town or at a mall for over half a year so far. We don't eat out. We worry about our kids going on busses to school. We avoid hotels like the plague. We've canceled recent 4x4 trips because of the situation. So why don't you answer the question for me.

Once again, we didn't ask for this war and we didn't start it. We offered to stop it several times. It takes two to make peace. There's only one player here.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bonfire @ April 04 2002,22:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In situations such as these, i find news about the events can be one sided and almost like propiganda in nature.  for instance, the US is allies with Isreal, and when i watch news on ABC, i find it to be more favoring Isreal as the good guys.<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe we are? What a dastardly thought, ey?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Walking onto a crowded bus and blowing yourself up is no way to fight a war. equally, driving tanks into refugee camps and demolishing buildings is no way to fight a war.<span id='postcolor'>

What if the regugee camps are used to manufacture bombs, suicide belts, Kasam 1 and 2 rockets? What if the buildings have terrorists within them, armed with automatic weapons, C4 explosives and RPGs?

Are the people on Israeli buses and in cafes aiming weapons at anyone while they go shopping or have a drink or something to eat?

How dare you compare!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I find that Isreals efforts to thwart terrorism is perhaps just an excuse to continue fighting.

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, we love gladiator sports. Do you really think that I or any of my neighbors here enjoy having our children called up to "continue fighting"? How repulsive!

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Pete @ April 04 2002,21:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">your a rasist avon, your opinions are no different than what was circling around in the head of milosevic, hitler...and other "famous" characters.<span id='postcolor'>

Such as Mojli Amin.

[ACEJim 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 04 2002,20:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Once again, we didn't ask for this war and we didn't start it. We offered to stop it several times. It takes two to make peace. There's only one player here.<span id='postcolor'>

Come off it Avon, you really think that every single Palestinian wants to to fight to the death? Of cause some do, but collective punishment is always wrong!

When the IRA were setting off bombs all over the UK in the 70s and 80s we didn't send tanks into Dublin - and look where we are now. Peaceful cohabitation.

[Bonfire 0]

I'm just giving my impartial "outside looking in" opinoion, if you don't like it thats tough.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 04 2002,22:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Come off it Avon, you really think that every single Palestinian wants to to fight to the death? Of cause some do, but collective punishment is always wrong!<span id='postcolor'>

Come off it yourself. Their own recent polls show some 80-85% approve of terrorism and suicide.

Who's interested and who ever mentioned collective punishment? Israel is interested in stopping terrorists and preventing its citizens from harm.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When the IRA were setting off bombs all over the UK in the 70s and 80s we didn't send tanks into Dublin - and look where we are now. Peaceful cohabitation.<span id='postcolor'>

For the majority of the last 8 years of the Oslo Accords, we too, didn't send in tanks but the rate of terrorist related deaths and injuries jumped way up since Oslo.

It appears that I'm as far from being an expert on how and why Britain handled the IRA as you are an expert on events on my side of the world.