Mid east

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How can you be so sure that they are by no means an interfering factor in any kind of negotiations when you don't even know why Israel is building them? <span id='postcolor'>

i said i dont know cause i dont know the real reason behind it, though i have some educated guess.

bu that doesnt contradict the ability to reach an agreement, in the 1979 peace with Egypt every single settlement was demolished and evacuated.

many more serious issues are at hand and are interfering.

unfortunatly, turnning the lights on the settlement blinds you to the real problems between us and them.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 28 2002,16:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">deaths in Ruanda, mass murder of whites in Rhodesia, East Timoe and Ceylon, Human rights violation in China and killing of live babies, Chechnya, Half world going in flames, and the mideast yet all this thread goes around is Israel........

thank you gentlemen for such a vast interest, im really flattered.....<span id='postcolor'>

This is a thread ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST and at the moment Israel is causing most of the problems. By brutalising Palestine you give the arabs a reason to hate and fight you.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 28 2002,17:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">when there is a massacre then its called one, like the Goldstein massacre for example.

thats when someone conspired to kill civilians on porpuse you know........<span id='postcolor'>

Then was it also a massacre when a bunch of settlers conspired to kill Palestinian civilians on purpose today in Hebron, even though they only managed to shoot a 12-year-old girl looking out from her balcony?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jewish settlers have rampaged through the West Bank city of Hebron, shooting dead a 14-year-old girl and damaging property.  -- BBC News<span id='postcolor'>

(And by the way, the IDF were enforcing a curfew on the entire town while this was happening.)

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 28 2002,18:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How can you be so sure that they are by no means an interfering factor in any kind of negotiations when you don't even know why Israel is building them?  <span id='postcolor'>

i said i dont know cause i dont know the real reason behind it, though i have some educated guess.

bu that doesnt contradict the ability to reach an agreement, in the 1979 peace with Egypt every single settlement was demolished and evacuated.

many more serious issues are at hand and are interfering.

unfortunatly, turnning the lights on the settlement blinds you to the real problems between us and them.<span id='postcolor'>

I'll tell you the reason behind it, Militant Zionism, Taking as much land for the Jewish people as possible. That has been it's goal since it was conceived. Yes the Jewish people should have a homeland (they already do) but it shouldn't be at monumental cost to others, who have a right to live where they have for centuries.

This is the very crux of the Middle East problem, and the solution begins with a total withdrawl of Israelis from the occupied zones.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">By brutalising Palestine you give the arabs a reason to hate and fight you.<span id='postcolor'>

they dont need an excuse. they've been doing that since Islam was founded.

action-counteraction.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then was it also a massacre when a bunch of settlers conspired to kill Palestinian civilians on purpose today in Hebron, even though they only managed to shoot a 12-year-old girl looking out from her balcony?

<span id='postcolor'>

READ YOU OWN LINK!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Palestinians threw stones at the settlers, who were returning from the funeral of the Israeli soldier and fellow settler, killed in a roadside ambush by Palestinian militants on Friday.

Two Jewish settlers and their son were also killed in that attack.

The settlers opened fire, hitting the girl, Nizin Jamjoun, as she stood on the balcony of her house, according to her brother.

<span id='postcolor'>

where is the conspiracy? where is the preplaning? where is the intention?

the massacre here is the one on the two settlers and their son who were killed.

the shooters acted criminaly and should be tried. but i didnt see anything in YOUR! link suggesting they went and looked for people to kill, CONTRARY to palestinian armed organizations.

edit:

Para: nice of you to qoute only the part that suits you.

[Paratrooper 0]

I quote what I am replying to.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll tell you the reason behind it, Militant Zionism, Taking as much land for the Jewish people as possible. That has been it's goal since it was conceived. Yes the Jewish people should have a homeland (they already do) but it shouldn't be at monumental cost to others, who have a right to live where they have for centuries<span id='postcolor'>

well, unlike you i dont state things as facts unless i know them to be true.

if its your opinion, say so. otherwise refrain from it.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">they dont need an excuse. they've been doing that since Islam was founded.

action-counteraction.

<span id='postcolor'>

Thats just plain rubbish. Read about Saladin and the crusades, he was always fair with the Jews, The trouble began when arab land was taken by Israel.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 28 2002,19:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll tell you the reason behind it, Militant Zionism, Taking as much land for the Jewish people as possible. That has been it's goal since it was conceived. Yes the Jewish people should have a homeland (they already do) but it shouldn't be at monumental cost to others, who have a right to live where they have for centuries<span id='postcolor'>

well, unlike you i dont state things as facts unless i know them to be true.

if its your opinion, say so. otherwise refrain from it.<span id='postcolor'>

It is not my opinion, it is clear to anyone objectivley looking at the problem. Analyitical skills produce facts from data. Elementary logic of thought.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Isreal is not cuasing the problems....it is Palestine. That is Isreal's homeland and they should have it all. Some people in Palestine come in from other countries! America should only support Isreal and not a terriost state like Palistine.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thats just plain rubbish. Read about Saladin and the crusades, he was always fair with the Jews, The trouble began when arab land was taken by Israel.<span id='postcolor'>

in the 18th century, in Damascus, jews were accused of killing a muslim for producing "Matzo" bread.tell what land did we occupy then?

as Islamic culture deteriorated more and more Pogroms and Anti-Jewish acts were commited.

actual Anti-Semetism is an import from europe.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is not my opinion, it is clear to anyone objectivley looking at the problem. Analyitical skills produce facts from data. Elementary logic of thought.<span id='postcolor'>

uh-huh.......right.......arent we confident.......

[bogo 0]

Scout:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

they dont need an excuse. they've been doing that since Islam was founded.

action-counteraction.

<span id='postcolor'>

Hmmm is that why many of the jews that are today in israel are arab jews. And i am shure that if will travel to

iran iraq or saudia arabia i will find synagoges. In fact there was no problem betwen the jews and arabs. The problem

started in late otoman empire when the jews where imagrating from europe and buying land from the turks.

Arab Jew = A jew that comes from an arab country

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 28 2002,19:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Isreal is not cuasing the problems....it is Palestine. That is Isreal's homeland and they should have it all. Some people in Palestine come in from other countries! America should only support Isreal and not a terriost state like Palistine.<span id='postcolor'>

That is one of the most un-educated replys I have ever seen on this forum, have you even read what has been discussed!

It's trying to force out the Palestinians that is causing the bloodshed.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Some people in Palestine come in from other countries! <span id='postcolor'> What about Israel then!?

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmmm is that why many of the jews that are today in israel are arab jews. And i am shure that if will travel to

iran iraq or saudia arabia i will find synagoges. In fact there was no problem betwen the jews and arabs. The problem

started in late otoman empire when the jews where imagrating from europe and buying land from the turks.

<span id='postcolor'>

yeah, tell that to my girlfriends grandmother that came from morroco, or the other one who came from Tunisia.

or wait........ tell that to my friends' wife who grandparents are from Iraq and Syria.

i'd love to see what their answer would be.

it would be also facinating to know that most of these people are right wingers, and claim their beliefs upon experience of their ancestors.

edit:

para: tell me this. how many refujees ran away from the west bank in '67?

how many ran away BEFORE israeli dorces entered the city?

why we let them stay if we're trying to force them out.

why did we let '48 arabs stay?

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 28 2002,20:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hmmm is that why many of the jews that are today in israel are arab jews. And i am shure that if will travel to

iran iraq or saudia arabia i will find synagoges. In fact there was no problem betwen the jews and arabs. The problem

started in late otoman empire when the jews where imagrating from europe and buying land from the turks.

<span id='postcolor'>

yeah, tell that to my girlfriends grandmother that came from morroco, or the other one who came from Tunisia.

or wait........ tell that to my friends' wife who grandparents are from Iraq and Syria.

i'd love to see what their answer would be.

it would be also facinating to know that most of these people are right wingers, and claim their beliefs upon experience of their ancestors.<span id='postcolor'>

Then tell me this if they had it sow bad why diden't they imgrate to us or other countrys. Like let's take europe many of

the jews from emegritad to us .

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then tell me this if they had it sow bad why diden't they imgrate to us or other countrys. Like let's take europe many of

the jews from emegritad to us .<span id='postcolor'>

there are couple of reasons to that:

1. post WWII world didnt seem safe enough for jews anymore.

2. since most of them came from backwards countries, they didnt know of the US or Canada, and what they did know about europe was Gas chambers (jews from Vichi Africa were sent to gas chambers too)

3. many didnt have enough funds.

4. most jews from these countries are quite religious, and the true aspiring of a jew was to come to "eretz-Hakodesh" the holy land.

when the oportunity came, they came. they wouldnt hadnt the Israeli Govt. paid heavy ransom for them and most had to leave their property there. still they came.

only couple of tens selected to stay, mainly to maintain the synagouges and tombs.

edit: since most european jews were more educated and less religious they decided to go to other places though the extremely religious thought non-religious Israel is defiling gods name.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 28 2002,19:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then tell me this if they had it sow bad why diden't they imgrate to us or other countrys. Like let's take europe many of

the jews from emegritad to us .<span id='postcolor'>

there are couple of reasons to that:

1. post WWII world didnt seem safe enough for jews anymore.

2. since most of them came from backwards countries, they didnt know of the US or Canada, and what they did know about europe was Gas chambers (jews from Vichi Africa were sent to gas chambers too)

3. many didnt have enough funds.

4. most jews from these countries are quite religious, and the true aspiring of a jew was to come to "eretz-Hakodesh" the holy land.

when the oportunity came, they came. they wouldnt hadnt the Israeli Govt. paid heavy ransom for them and most had to leave their property there. still they came.

only couple of tens selected to stay, mainly to maintain the synagouges and tombs.

edit: since most european jews were more educated and less religious they decided to go to other places though the extremely religious thought non-religious Israel is defiling gods name.<span id='postcolor'>

The Jews have a perfect right to Israel, but not to Palestine. No-one here suggests that the Jews shouldn't live in Israel.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Jews have a perfect right to Israel, but not to Palestine. No-one here suggests that the Jews shouldn't live in Israel.<span id='postcolor'>

did i say that? i just answered a question:

"Then tell me this if they had it sow bad why diden't they imgrate to us or other countrys. Like let's take europe many of

the jews from emegritad to us "

and again, we are not talking about rights. i fully accept that most of the west bank and Gaza should be Palestinian state. the question is how do we get there?

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Jews have a perfect right to Israel, but not to Palestine. No-one here suggests that the Jews shouldn't live in Israel.<span id='postcolor'>

did i say that? i just answered a question:

"Then tell me this if they had it sow bad why diden't they imgrate to us or other countrys. Like let's take europe many of

the jews from emegritad to us "

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 28 2002,18:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i said i dont know cause i dont know the real reason behind it, though i have some educated guess.<span id='postcolor'>What is your educated guess?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 28 2002,18:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> unfortunatly, turnning the lights on the settlement blinds you to the real problems between us and them.<span id='postcolor'>

A lot of people don't agree with you.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">According to the Mitchell Report:

Some Israelis appear not to comprehend the humiliation and frustration that Palestinians must endure every day as a result of living with the continuing effects of occupation, sustained by the presence of Israeli military forces and settlements in their midst.

In addition to the Interim Agreement, customary international law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention, prohibits Israel (as an occupying power) from establishing  settlements in occupied territory pending an end to the conflict.

Israel accepts that the settlements are an outstanding issue on which there will have to be agreement as part of any permanent status resolution between the sides.

A cessation of Palestinian-Israeli violence will be particularly hard to sustain unless the Government of Israel freezes all settlement construction activity.

Most other countries, including Turkey, Norway, and those of the European Union, have also been critical of Israeli settlement activity, in accordance with their views that such settlements are illegal under international law and not in compliance with previous agreements.

I don't think there is any bigger obstacle to peace than the settlement activity that continues not only unabated but at an enhanced pace. -- Secretary of State James Baker in 1991

The immediate adoption of a settlements freeze by Israel, more than any other action, could create the confidence needed...  -- President Ronald Regan in 1982<span id='postcolor'>

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 28 2002,19:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Isreal is not cuasing the problems....it is Palestine. That is Isreal's homeland and they should have it all. Some people in Palestine come in from other countries! America should only support Isreal and not a terriost state like Palistine.<span id='postcolor'>LOL... I guess they just don't make good skateboarding helmets like they used to.  

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

That is Isreal's homeland and they should have very right to it. The Palistine people should be allowed to become citizens of Isreal or be reloctaed to other Arab countries. I support Isreal 100%!

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 28 2002,20:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That is Isreal's homeland and they should have very right to it. The Palistine people should be allowed to become citizens of Isreal or be reloctaed to other Arab countries. I support Isreal 100%!<span id='postcolor'>

It is no more Israels "Homeland" than it is the Palestinians.

What right do they have to "relocate them" ?! This talk is the kind of thing that is prolonging the conflict for so long.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What is your educated guess?

<span id='postcolor'>

AFAIK immidietly after 1967 negotiations were held with the Jordanian crown and after 1974 with egypt concerning the Territories. Egypt clearly refrained from taking the Territories back in 1979 peace agreement and "dumped" the problem in our laps.

Similar talks were held with Jordan until 1985.

in the first years Israel denied any settlements in these territories as it was believed that they would be returned quite quickly.

after time passed, and the parties were unable to agree, on one hand and there was a dire need to establish the security in these area.

since in the short term the Govt. didnt see any alternative, and since it seemed back then that agreeing with arabs states is impossible there was nobody to talk to.

Israel and palestinian terrorist organizations were engaged since 1964 in the fiercest warfare.

now what were the alternatives?

1. to negotiate - failed.

2. to withdraw - people wouldnt let a withdrawl, primerly because of their remembrance of the last 20 years.

3. wait.

and the easiest course is ofcourse to wait.

since time passed, it was decided that security would be helped by a series of strategically places settlements.

in the '80 the chief reason for settlers was more the quality of life and the cheap land then Ideology

all in all the main reason IMO was the "waiting" strategy coupled with security considerations.

if you'll take a look at the map you supplied you would see:

a belt around the green line and along the high mountains.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 28 2002,20:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then tell me this if they had it sow bad why diden't they imgrate to us or other countrys. Like let's take europe many of

the jews from emegritad to us .<span id='postcolor'>

there are couple of reasons to that:

1. post WWII world didnt seem safe enough for jews anymore.

2. since most of them came from backwards countries, they didnt know of the US or Canada, and what they did know about europe was Gas chambers (jews from Vichi Africa were sent to gas chambers too)

3. many didnt have enough funds.

4. most jews from these countries are quite religious, and the true aspiring of a jew was to come to "eretz-Hakodesh" the holy land.

when the oportunity came, they came. they wouldnt hadnt the Israeli Govt. paid heavy ransom for them and most had to leave their property there. still they came.

only couple of tens selected to stay, mainly to maintain the synagouges and tombs.

edit: since most european jews were more educated and less religious they decided to go to other places though the extremely religious thought non-religious Israel is defiling gods name.<span id='postcolor'>

I think i need to quote you from 139:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

same as Jewish refugees from Arab states? no problem. Jewish property in arabs states exceeds pal property three folds. as to right of return, you cant expect me to bring in a people that are distinctly anti-Israeli. just as you wont want any ppl that want to bring down your own country.

<span id='postcolor'>

Jews are known for many things but being poor is not one of them. And i am not catogorising all the jews.