Mid east

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> This amount of precision that you describe in a real-life scenario is a inapropriate<span id='postcolor'>

errrr.....no. since LGB can be guided through extremly small windows. and unfortunatly we need to excel in such things

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Especially since buildings collapse not ony by shrapnel but pressure waves and heat! <span id='postcolor'>

see my former reply:</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4. you can avoid shrapnel by using cellulose or copper casing that'll melt or evaporate.

you can even funnel the charge using semi-shaped charge.

<span id='postcolor'>

shrapnel is what kills ppl. shock waves do that too. in order to negate the first and minimize the second see above.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Quote

Then how come the building was totaly devasteted and the buildings near it half dameged.The building dosen't look like on one room or a floor has been dameged it looks like it totaly dameged.

only one side of the building was damaged and the building across it were damaged. the house wasnt toppled and wasnt damaged throughly. the aiming was done to the side of the building

Quote

you still didnt answer my question mate. im waiting

Hmm what i am i doing now

sorry, i didnt make myself clear:

do you condone ANY delibarate pre-planned attacks upon civilians?

edit: BTW. hitting a single room of a building is doen best with ATGMs like hellfire, TOWs etc.

Edited by scout on July 24 2002,21:34

.<span id='postcolor'>

1.Here is your anwser look at the pictuers :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media...._vi.ram

There you can see rubbel of the building.And if you don't belive bbc then i will give you links to other media round the world

2. NO and NO and NO i do not conndole any killing at all if it was after me the all humanaty should live in peace but it isent'. But it isen't after me and we live in a non perfect world.

I think that's what we are discussing now .

And by the way the quoting about Goldstein massacre it's not me.

No do you

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">.Here is your anwser look at the pictuers :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media...._vi.ram

There you can see rubbel of the building.And if you don't belive bbc then i will give you links to other media round the world

<span id='postcolor'>

sorry, my web doesnt show it. but ive seen the photos on CNN, Maariv and Yediot aharonot.

all of the house isnt destroyed, only a section of it

maariv

this is one of the photos.

that really doesnt matter since even in this section there were civies.

btw. just to offer you a prespective. the hit was planned before but was cancel twice since intel showed there were civies in the immidiate vicinity.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And by the way the quoting about Goldstein massacre it's not me.

<span id='postcolor'>

sorry mate, i was quoting Bernadotte. just didnt get the hang of it yet . hundreds of posts past. would you believe

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">2. NO and NO and NO i do not conndole any killing at all if it was after me the all humanaty should live in peace but it isent'. But it isen't after me and we live in a non perfect world.

I think that's what we are discussing now .

<span id='postcolor'>

good to hear.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No do you<span id='postcolor'>

if you asking about me, then no, i dont and i hope i make myself clear. this is a goal i aspire to achieve although it's imperfect world. and thats what im trying to get through to you all:

the Israeli govt. and the IDF doesnt target civilians. it doesnt see them as its enemies.

there are unfortunatly mistakes and accidents which are not a matter of "ok, never mind"

all of those who step out of this line are punished severly, and on matters much less serious then shooting a man.

there is a sport that became popular recently: to second guess what could have been done.

saying this as a person who have been there, until you face an angry mob that will lynch you had they put their arms on you, its extremly difficult to keep calm.

facing a man running towards you, knowing that high precentage of displays ofsuch behaviour are done by terrorists is a very tough situation to do the right thing in 2 secs.

the fact that palestinian civilian losses are quite low is just one way proving it. you maybe dont like the ICT, but you can check for yourselves.

although its not fair, ill say that anyway: you're sitting couple of thousands of miles away, you dont know whats going on on the field, you dont understand the arena, yet you go into the fine print.

i dont have problem with your criticism. i have, however, problem with you taking a stand of criticism of details.

last thing: since im still an active member of the IDF's reserve, i find Amnesty's reports highly inaccurate on every single event that i have knowledge of.

the reports are done upon testimony of palestinians only. as i've seen they do not research further, do not do any kind of basic fact-finding.often their researchers are palestinians. often they accept 2nd and 3rd hand rumors at face values.

up until recently no such research was done on the PA and the Palestinian violations of human rights, to their people and on Israelis.

i have a real beef with them accordingly.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the Israeli govt. and the IDF doesnt target civilians. it doesnt see them as its enemies.[/b]

there are unfortunatly mistakes and accidents which are not a matter of "ok, never mind"

all of those who step out of this line are punished severly, and on matters much less serious then shooting a man.

there is a sport that became popular recently: to second guess what could have been done.

saying this as a person who have been there, until you face an angry mob that will lynch you had they put their arms on you, its extremly difficult to keep calm.

facing a man running towards you, knowing that high precentage of displays ofsuch behaviour are done by terrorists is a very tough situation to do the right thing in 2 secs.

the fact that palestinian civilian losses are quite low is just one way proving it. you maybe dont like the ICT, but you can check for yourselves.

although its not fair, ill say that anyway: you're sitting couple of thousands of miles away, you dont know whats going on on the field, you dont understand the arena, yet you go into the fine print.

i dont have problem with your criticism. i have, however, problem with you taking a stand of criticism of details.

last thing: since im still an active member of the IDF's reserve, i find Amnesty's reports highly inaccurate on every single event that i have knowledge of.

the reports are done upon testimony of palestinians only. as i've seen they do not research further, do not do any kind of basic fact-finding.often their researchers are palestinians. often they accept 2nd and 3rd hand rumors at face values.

up until recently no such research was done on the PA and the Palestinian violations of human rights, to their people and on Israelis.

i have a real beef with them accordingly.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok sow let me see 1500 people killed and 1000 of people injuried by the israeli army and let's 700 where fighters and suicede bomber's.The rest are civilians and you whanna tell me that all of them that are killed are killed by acciden't.

You don't belive in UN or amnesty wich by the world are regarded very reliabel source.

You think that every action wich is made by the israely goverment against the palestinans is justafaibel. And for killing a terrorist it's ok that some may die as well and they can't be written of as inocent casualties. It's ok to have setllers on the west bank and in gaza that is ok because in the tora it's says that israel is for the jewish people. It's ok to have corfue in palestinian towns and by that starving people will collected punishment to stop terrorist wich by the way that has been proved over and over the a terrorist can escape and blow himself up with or without a courfue.

Ohh sorry you said that the civilian casualties are low. And who better knows then people that are living in the middle east like israel and palestine. Sow if i checked the palestinian media the you would belive me. I am just saying because as i can see ict is A ISRAELI institute.

Sorry but you don't really expect me to belive this are you.

[scout 0]

you are beginning to rant my friend!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You don't belive in UN or amnesty wich by the world are regarded very reliabel source<span id='postcolor'>

why should i? there were SO MANY cases to support my views. the UN is a group of countries that most of its resolutions since 1948 were against Israel.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And for killing a terrorist it's ok that some may die as well and they can't be written of as inocent casualties. <span id='postcolor'>

show me where did i say that? i strictly said that we do our most to avoid such happenings, which is much more then ANY other country in the world have ever done.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's ok to have setllers on the west bank and in gaza that is ok because in the tora it's says that israel is for the jewish people<span id='postcolor'>

show me where did i say that either. im getting really annoyed of you putting words in my mouth

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's ok to have corfue in palestinian towns and by that starving people will collected punishment to stop terrorist wich by the way that has been proved over and over the a terrorist can escape and blow himself up with or without a courfue.

<span id='postcolor'>

if you are arguing that this method doesnt lessens amounts of attacks you are totally wrong.

check the stats of the last couple of weeks.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ohh sorry you said that the civilian casualties are low. And who better knows then people that are living in the middle east like israel and palestine. Sow if i checked the palestinian media the you would belive me. I am just saying because as i can see ict is A ISRAELI institute.

<span id='postcolor'>

you want to check how many times Palestinian media have been caught distorting and lying? how many times they made up thing? how they openly promote hate? just try to remember the "500 victims of massacre of Jenin" turned 56 and only 13 of them civilians, most of them were caught in the explosion that killed 13 of our troops.

check <a href="www.memri.org" target="_blank">memri</a> for qoutes. funny how you never find this on english speaking news letter. sorry, the link doesnt work, its: www.memri.org

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You think that every action wich is made by the israely goverment against the palestinans is justafaibel.<span id='postcolor'>

nope, where did you see this? i do, however, think that terrorists should be killed like rabbid dogs. do you differ?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok sow let me see 1500 people killed and 1000 of people injuried by the israeli army and let's 700 where fighters and suicede bomber's.The rest are civilians and you whanna tell me that all of them that are killed are killed by acciden't.

<span id='postcolor'>

well, seems like i continue on and on saying this.Israel and the IDF DOESNT target civilians.

if we would like to do this we would use much more effective weapons with much less risk to our troops. period.

no palestinian was shot 'cause he was palestinian, contrary to  what the other side is doin to us.

[scout 0]

bogo: i would advise you to go and read the thread from its start.

it maybe tiresome, but i dont intend to repost all the links i did, since the begining.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

why should i? there were SO MANY cases to support my views. the UN is a group of countries that most of its resolutions since 1948 were against Israel.

<span id='postcolor'>

Well then almost the entire world is against israel. Is that right

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

show me where did i say that? i strictly said that we do our most to avoid such happenings, which is much more then ANY other country in the world have ever done.

<span id='postcolor'>

But you seem to support this attak last night by the idf. And even the israeli spokesman said that they knew that there would be cassualties but not sow high.

cnn.com

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

if you are arguing that this method doesnt lessens amounts of attacks you are totally wrong.

check the stats of the last couple of weeks.

<span id='postcolor'>

i am shure that if this countinues it will be like a concentration camp. The people are only allowed outside

four a couple of hours they don't have job they don't have food. If this is the israeli anwser then i really

can see how the terrorist are getting support. yes the attaks have gone down but not 100% are they.

And i remmeber when the israeli army enterd in march in west bank and they said ohhh ya this is the way to

get rid off all terrorists and then we can sit at the table and discuss peace . And i remmeber exactly

that when idf redraw the first words out of israeli spokesman was not peace it was let's get rid of arrafat.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

you want to check how many times Palestinian media have been caught distorting and lying? how many times they made up thing? how they openly promote hate? just try to remember the "500 victims of massacre of Jenin" turned 56 and only 13 of them civilians, most of them were caught in the explosion that killed 13 of our troops.

check <a href="www.memri.org" target="_blank">memri</a> for qoutes. funny how you never find this on english speaking news letter. sorry, the link doesnt work, its: www.memri.org

<span id='postcolor'>

Yes you are right on that when idf enterd he said it was 500 but i remmber exactly on cnn when the repporter

told him if he was wrong on that if he widdrew his words. And he actualy did.And about jenin the idf was

saying over and over that they haden't done anything wrong. But that what strikes me is that israel never

aloud any search team. I remmeber exactly that it was the former Finish primmeminister who should be in charge

for the search team. But israel came with more and more demamands evry time until annan gave up.

Sow infact we may never find the truth about what happend in jennin.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

well, seems like i continue on and on saying this.Israel and the IDF DOESNT target civilians.

if we would like to do this we would use much more effective weapons with much less risk to our troops. period.

no palestinian was shot 'cause he was palestinian, contrary to what the other side is doin to us.

<span id='postcolor'>

Well aperantly the only one you belive is the israeli media.sow there is no say about this . In your eyes

only the israel has the truth.

Sorry to say this but i don't belive it as i said before i don't trust a media wich has soemthing to gain.

And you can't not tell me that ICT hasen't nothing to gain.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 24 2002,19:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">By the way, the first Palestinian suicide bombing occurred in 1994, as an act of revenge for the Goldstein massacre.  On 6 April 1994, Dr. Baruch Goldstein, an Israeli settler, shot dead 29 Palestinians praying in Hebron's Ibrahimi Mosque and wounded over 100 others before being killed himself.  Here is an Israeli website honouring his memory.

Punchline:  Baruch Goldstein was buried in the Palestinian territories and over the years, his grave has become a site of pilgrimage.<span id='postcolor'>

this argument is supposedly legitimizes these attacks right?<span id='postcolor'>

Wrong.  You didn't quote the most important part, just ahead of the above quote where I also said:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ July 24 2002,14:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> ...nobody remembers when and why the first Palestinian suicide attack occurred in Israel.  Everyone simply remembers it as a despicable action rather than a despicable reaction.<span id='postcolor'>

de·spic·a·ble adj.  deserving of contempt or scorn; vile.

Saying that something is a despicable reaction rather than a despicable action does not legitimise it.  That would be like saying smoking legitimises lung cancer.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 24 2002,19:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">what about before hand? what about other attacks on civilians? do you mean that before 6 April 1994, no israeli citizen had been shot, bombed or knifed?<span id='postcolor'>

Of course I don't mean that.  And Baruch Goldstein's Kach group was certainly not the first Israeli terrorist organisation to massacre Palestinians.  Didn't a former leader of the outlawed terrorist group LEHI actually become Prime Minister (Shamir)?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 24 2002,19:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the million dollar question you, bogo etc. are facing is:

do you condone ANY delibarate pre-planned attacks upon civilians? <span id='postcolor'>

No, of course not.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 24 2002,19:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...if you are not, then im amazed at the points you are taking. excusing colde blooded pre-planed murder done for decades by any sort of argument, is really out of the point.<span id='postcolor'>

Nobody here is excusing murder.  Once again, saying that cancer is a reaction to something does not excuse it.  But how can you possibly hope to fight cancer if you don't try to understand what causes it?  You can either quit smoking, sun tanning, eating burnt toast, etc., or you can spend your life cutting out tumors.  It's the same with terrorism.  Israel is focusing too much on radical surgery without trying to cure the disease.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 24 2002,19:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">as ive said before, you wanna fight? go ahead, fight SOLDIERS not civilians, for myself i dont condone such acts. do you?<span id='postcolor'>

I say again... no.

But if you really oppose conflict, Scout, then you should at least try to understand the anger on the other side.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

I am standing with Isreal in this war! Isreal is fighting for their homeland!

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 25 2002,01:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am standing with Isreal in this war! Isreal is fighting for their homeland!<span id='postcolor'>

Duke_of_Ray have you even been reading the topic do you know the history do you know the causes off this conflict?

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ July 25 2002,00:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am standing with Isreal in this war! Isreal is fighting for their homeland!<span id='postcolor'>

Why post such a comment? Have you read any of the thread, or did you just want to chip that in? The conflict is so bad because both people are fighting for their 'homeland'.

[fraggit 0]

By the looks of it he just blurted that out. I think this is the same kid who's God wanted the Jews to kill all the Arabs am I correct? Maybe too much FOX News for ya eh?

I hope despite the Air Strike last night the high level talks continue. But as the trend goes, there will be another suicide attack, air raid, repeat....during which no peace talks...

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (fraggit @ July 25 2002,01:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Maybe too much FOX News for ya eh?<span id='postcolor'>

Lol! I get that with my sky package, I've never seen anything like it, just terrible.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 24 2002,22:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israel and the IDF DOESNT target civilians.<span id='postcolor'>

Umm... maybe you're referring to a different IDF than where this guy served.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ofer, a comrade in arms who remained in the service has become a hero: the hero of the second Giv'ati trial.  He commanded a company that dragged a detained Palestinian demonstrator into a dark orange grove and beat him to death. As the verdict stated, Ofer was found to have been the leader in charge of the whole business.  He spent two months in jail and was demoted – I think that was the most severe sentence given an Israeli soldier through the entire first Intifada, in which about a thousand Palestinians were killed.<span id='postcolor'>

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,01:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The conflict is so bad because both people are fighting for their 'homeland'.<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly.  One side is trying to recover what was lost in the year 1948 while the other side is trying to recover what was lost in the year 48.  

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well then almost the entire world is against israel. Is that right

<span id='postcolor'>

actually more then 50 muslim states out of 156 UN members plus most of african countries.

you want me to list some of the stuff?

ok here we go:

1948 - right after the declaration of Israel US, UK and USSR by force of the UN decide that weapon supllies to the conflicting sided are prohibited, that didnt interfere the UK to send ammo, equipment and training officers to Egypt or Jordan or France's to Syria.

1951 - UN condemns Israel for drying up the "hula" lake,

Syria occupies El-Hamma although its a buffer zone.

The UN ignores. israel sends in 7 police officers, they are shot dead. Israel is being condemned.

1949-1953 numerous palestinian "fedayun" attacks on Israeli settlement. although traces lead to Jordanian and Egyptian borders, UN observers evade any conclusions.

1956 after the Sinai campaign, UN troops are stationed in the Gaza strip and sinai. they turn a blind eye to continuos attacks on Israel

all the while, Jordan breaks the ceasee fire agreement by denying Jews access to the western wall. Israeli protests go unoticed. Har-Hatsofim, is a secluded ground in Jerusalem, every other convoy is attacked on the way in. Jordanian troops are nowhere to be seen. UN avoids any condemnation

1967 Nasser demands UN troops removed from Gaza, UN CO in place tells:"nothing or all of it", nasser takes the second choice. UN guarentees to Israels security, turn hollow.

this is a mere catalist to the Six-Day-War.

1970 after a long attrition war Israel and Egypt agree to stand down. Egypt promotes SAM missiles to the Canal cotrary to the agreement, Israel protests UN Ignores.

1978 south Lebannon turns into terrorists haven. UN condemns every attack done by Israel into South lebannon but is mute to terrorist attacks against civilian villages. the world is blind even to the horror of the attack of kindergarden or a the attack on a school in maalot.

1982 UN finally deploys forces in South lebannon, but those forces arent doin much other then show presence.

the are letting armed guerillas, forbiden to the area to roam free.

2001 the UN covers up evidence of involvement and turning blind eye to kidnapping of 3 Israeli soldiers from Israel AFTER Israel has Retreated from every inch of lebanese hand.

Annan denies first but after evidence is showed, reluctantly agrees.

lest we forget the Derbin Summit.

and there is a lot more to it.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 24 2002,19:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">On the other hand Sharon is really not the person with a diplomatic language. I wonder what he would say if he could talk openly.<span id='postcolor'>

You can find this interview splashed ALL over the net.  The problem is that it's not with Sharon, but instead with some other anonymous Israeli general who died 11 years ago.  So many people still believe it was with Sharon that even a US newspaper editor got caught having to print the following retraction:</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">AMOS OZ INTERVIEW NOT WITH SHARON

April 16, 2002

I made a grievous error in not verifying the authenticity of 20-year-old quotes attributed to Ariel Sharon that I used in my Saturday column on the Israeli leader. As it turns out, they were made not by Sharon but another unnamed Israeli soldier who died 11 years ago.

The interview in question was conducted by Amos Oz, one of Israel's leading authors and prominent in the Peace Now movement. He had access to many Israeli generals and politicians of that era but identified some of his interview subjects only by letters of the alphabet, leaving it it up to his readers to decide who they were.

When the interview first appeared after the invasion of Lebanon, "Z" was widely assumed to be Sharon because the interviewee was described as a military man "with a certain history," about 50 years of age, heavyset and a prosperous farmer. All this fit the stocky Sharon, who had a farm, was the right age and certainly had "a history."

Oz never revealed who "Z" was, saying he had promised to protect his identity. He held to that promise when I telephoned him Monday, but confirmed that it was not Sharon.

"I have never met or interviewed Sharon," Oz said.

The Middle East is full of mythology. History is rewritten to promote the viewpoints of Israelis or Palestinians and both sides in the conflict suffer from selective recall when it suits their purpose. My job is to cut through mythology, not add to it.

So there it is. Another myth exploded, leaving much egg on my face. My critics will doubtless be delighted, and my supporters disappointed -- but not nearly as disappointed as I am in myself for not going to the source of those quotes in the first place. After 33 years in this business I should know better.

My apologies to all.

<span id='postcolor'>

Still, it's disturbing enough to think that any Israeli general actually expressed those views.

[scout 0]

BOGO:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But you seem to support this attak last night by the idf. And even the israeli spokesman said that they knew that there would be cassualties but not sow high.

<span id='postcolor'>

*sigh* go back 2-3 pages, read my answer and come back when your head clears.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i am shure that if this countinues it will be like a concentration camp. <span id='postcolor'>

be careful!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes you are right on that when idf enterd he said it was 500 but i remmber exactly on cnn when the repporter

told him if he was wrong on that if he widdrew his words. And he actualy did.And about jenin the idf was

saying over and over that they haden't done anything wrong. But that what strikes me is that israel never

aloud any search team. I remmeber exactly that it was the former Finish primmeminister who should be in charge

for the search team. But israel came with more and more demamands evry time until annan gave up.

Sow infact we may never find the truth about what happend in jennin.

<span id='postcolor'>

ok ill repeat what i answered longinius: after the Army withdraw the palestinians had a lot of time to serach all they want and they didnt manage to show nothing, not even missing person list.

that was only example about these lies. there were a lot of it, lots and lots.

btw. one of the most remembered moment for me was whenn BBC interviewer talked with Israeli spokesman, and opened up with these words:"It seems, Sharon has another massacre to add on his list" WTF? nice going BBC.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well aperantly the only one you belive is the israeli media.sow there is no say about this . In your eyes

only the israel has the truth.

<span id='postcolor'>

believe whatever you wish. but i'll quote myself again:DONT DARE PUTTING WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!

you wanna play needles? that can go two ways you know.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Duke_of_Ray have you even been reading the topic do you know the history do you know the causes off this conflict?<span id='postcolor'>

you dont know twat either, dont shut others up kiddo, everyone is entitled for an opinion. even if it doesnt go your way.

Bernadotte:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Umm... maybe you're referring to a different IDF than where this guy served.

<span id='postcolor'>

go back to page......ummmmm......110~.

i had this discusion with longinius. if you any thing to add, im listenning.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">One side is trying to recover what was lost in the year 1948 while the other side is trying to recover what was lost in the year 48.

Bernadotte Posted on July 25 2002,02:34

<span id='postcolor'>

not quite correct, ill say my version?

one side is trying to recover what was lost in 1948, the other to survive. and maybe thats why you fail again and again to understand me.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Nobody here is excusing murder. Once again, saying that cancer is a reaction to something does not excuse it. But how can you possibly hope to fight cancer if you don't try to understand what causes it? You can either quit smoking, sun tanning, eating burnt toast, etc., or you can spend your life cutting out tumors. It's the same with terrorism. Israel is focusing too much on radical surgery without trying to cure the disease.

<span id='postcolor'>

the problem with you guys, history with the pals starts for you in 1967.

you keep forgetting that since 1995 till 2002 no Israeli soldier resided in Pal villages or cities.

peace was given a chance, for 8 long bloody years, but the pals decided to give war a chance

im off to sleep but we will meet soon, and i havent finished yet.

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Still, it's disturbing enough to think that any Israeli general actually expressed those views. <span id='postcolor'>

you want to see more disturbing data? go tomemri see what every other palestinian says about us.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 25 2002,02:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">btw. one of the most remembered moment for me was whenn BBC interviewer talked with Israeli spokesman, and opened up with these words:"It seems, Sharon has another massacre to add on his list" WTF?  nice going BBC.<span id='postcolor'>

This raises a good question:

How many Palestinians must die before the media can call it a massacre and how many Israelis?

Does it make you equally angry, Scout, when the Israeli media refers to the killing of 10 of its citizens as a massacre?  ...Or perhaps Israeli lives are simply worth more than Palestinian lives.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Isreal is fighting for their homeland, not Palestine. If I read this whole topic I would scratch my eyes out, there are 145 pages! The terriots over in Palestine put themselves in civilian areas on purpose, so the Isrealies can not help but have a few civilian casulties. Tons of countries throught war have cuased civilian casulties, the Palestinians bombers are killing innocent on purpose and so I am for Isreal 100%!!!

[Kiowa 0]

Kill all Terrorists!Revenge for our dead brothers!VIVA LA ISRAEL!

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

be careful!

<span id='postcolor'>

Be carefull with what the truth you know i know it. And the rest of the world knows it. What's gonna happen

in a couple of months, those people are going to die one by one. Even the israeli goverment called un for

help because that's gonna happen. Maybe the truth is hurtfull.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

ok ill repeat what i answered longinius: after the Army withdraw the palestinians had a lot of time to serach all they want and they didnt manage to show nothing, not even missing person list.

that was only example about these lies. there were a lot of it, lots and lots.

btw. one of the most remembered moment for me was whenn BBC interviewer talked with Israeli spokesman, and opened up with these words:"It seems, Sharon has another massacre to add on his list" WTF? nice going BBC.

<span id='postcolor'>

Ok then why diden't allow the un commitie wich was suggested by US. In my eyes if israel haden't anything

to hide then they will allow it. And don't tell me that commitie was bias. And you are telling me that one

of the big issues with amnesty facts is that they don't ask the israeli army. You know what was one of the

reason that israel diden't allow un in. It was because un whanted to speak also to the israeli soldiers

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

believe whatever you wish. but i'll quote myself again:DONT DARE PUTTING WORDS INTO MY MOUTH!

you wanna play needles? that can go two ways you know.

<span id='postcolor'>

Well you always reffering to the jewish media and when i quote from other like amnesty or un you don't accept it

as being a fact. Tell me wich non jewish or us media would you expect me to quote.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

you dont know twat either, dont shut others up kiddo, everyone is entitled for an opinion. even if it doesnt go your way.

<span id='postcolor'>

Ohh sow i think if we got like 1000 palestinians writing here : Long live Palestine and 1000 jews that are writing

Viva la israel that will real help in this debate.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

not quite correct, ill say my version?

one side is trying to recover what was lost in 1948, the other to survive. and maybe thats why you fail again and again to understand me.

<span id='postcolor'>

Trying to survive it's not palestinians or any other arab country that has your arsenal. Evry year 3 billion

dollars is israel reciving in us arms. You showed over and over that the arab countrys are no match for israel

. Israel is the one wich is doing all the settelment evry month more and more palestinians home are destroyed

sow they can't clear for jewish settelment. If this keeps up at the same rate do you really think that there

would be a pallestina in 50 years.

[Longinius 1]

"Isreal is fighting for their homeland, not Palestine. If I read this whole topic I would scratch my eyes out, there are 145 pages! The terriots over in Palestine put themselves in civilian areas on purpose, so the Isrealies can not help but have a few civilian casulties. Tons of countries throught war have cuased civilian casulties, the Palestinians bombers are killing innocent on purpose and so I am for Isreal 100%!!!"

The fact that Palestinians are doing wrong does not automatically mean Israel is doing right.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 25 2002,02:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Still, it's disturbing enough to think that any Israeli general actually expressed those views. <span id='postcolor'>

you want to see more disturbing data? go tomemri see what every other palestinian says about us.<span id='postcolor'>

We should call this thread "FAQ Middle East conflict" and "hello, my name is scout, what can I do for you"

Anyway, I realy like the responses you give Scout, they might be emotional on the one hand but also reflect a clear picture on the other.

However, what is realy old-fashioned are those revengist comments as the one I quote here. We all know that the deeds by someone else dont justify your own ones. Israel is a grown up civilised state and cannot and should be smart enough not to adopt practices of other countries. I never heard the USA justify their death penalty by saying that Lybia and Syria do it too.

BTW: yesterday there was a very interesting Interview for about half an hour between Sharon and the Representative of the German Jews. It seems as if Sharon does not like Jews to live abroad, and the interviewer wasnt happy about that.

Damm hell, Israel had and has so many good politicans, why Sharon?

And about the old interview with Sharon, I am neither sure if the old interview is authentic but what you present me here, I mean the apologies of the so called "author", are questionable as well. So to the hell with the interview.