How about mortars?

[scout 0]

i dont mean the rifle-propelled garandes but a 3" mortar.

i think it would add a lot, especially in use of smoke, which is something i miss in this game.

i know that the AI doesnt recognise it but it can be great for multi-player ops.

any-way, the ability to use support if ur goin tits-up is somthing that should be useful.

all in all, where is the support in this game?

[Dawdler 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">all in all, where is the support in this game?<span id='postcolor'>

Airborne?

One can probably script (probably meaning yes, if you really want to ) it, but as you said, ai wont use it, and question is how good it will be...

(Sidenote: Artillery support scripts exist, make explosions a bit smaller and voila: A mortar support script )

[scout 0]

i want a manned mortar, so i could control it. do u have it here? does the artillery has smoke?

[Dawdler 0]

Well, you can check out the artillery for yourself, Goetterfunke has a nice one over at Planet Of War for download. Cant remember the address though, search the forum.

In theory, just change the model and trajectory, and youll have a mortar...

[advocatexxx 0]

If Mortars are ever implemented, I suggest the following way is used:

MOVEMENT / LOADING-UNLOADING

Mortar, while quite heavy, is not impossible to carry. It is the shells that add extra weight and thus Mortar systems are usually delivered by trucks or multiple personnel. Since I can think of about a hundred reasons why 2 person Mortar team would be problematic in single and multiplayer games, I propose this.

Mortar shells would have their own "ammo box" which could be positioned in bases, or hidden locations, and would work in much the same way as any other AMMO BOX works. The only difference is that this box would only have Mortar shells.

A Mortar soldier would carry the tube and the plate (the whole Mortar system), but he wouldn't be able to carry any shells, due to their weight.

This Mortar soldier would need a vehicle or the assistance of a voulenteer soldier to carry the Mortar shells for him. If Mortar is controlled by human player, and has a AI Soldier under his command, then that AI Soldier could be instructed to go near the Mortar AMMO BOX and take Mortar Shells. Let's say that a basic Soldier would be able to carry 20 Mortar Shells. NOTE: Only Soldier could carry Mortar Shells, as Machine Gunners, Anti-Tank Soldiers and others already have plenty of weight on them.

Alternatively, the Mortar could get into a jeep/HMMVV/Truck and park near the Mortar AMMO BOX. In doing so, an Action would appear in the action menu giving the Mortar an option of loading Mortar shells on to the vehicle.

Let's say the Mortar AMMO BOX would contain 300 Mortar Shells. Each seat in a vehicle would have the capacity to carry 20 Mortar Shells (Same as the capacity of a Soldier).

So if the Mortar was the driver of an empty Jeep, that would leave 3 seats unoccupied. By selecting "Load Mortar Shells" from the action menu, 20 Mortar Shells would be loaded on to an empty seat of the vehicle. By selecting this option again, additional 20 Mortar Shells would be loaded onto another empty seat. Since in this example, only 3 chairs are available in the Jeep (4th chair is the Driver - Mortar), then he could carry a total of 60 Mortar Shells.

Of course if no vehicle is available, Mortar can issue order to all available Soldiers under his command to carry Mortars. This would, of course decrease their walking/running speed.

Once the Mortar had found an ideal spot to setup his Mortar at, he would select an Action from the Action Menu - "Setup Mortar". This would take maybe 10 seconds.

He would then issue an order to the Soldier carrying the Mortar Shells from the action menu - "Unload Mortar Shells at Mortar". The Soldier would then walk over to the setup Mortar and unload the shells which would be placed in a pack.

Alternatively, the Jeep loaded with Mortar Shells could be parked near the setup Mortar and an Action from the Action Menu - "Unload Mortar Shells at Mortar" would unload the Mortar Shells placed in a pack.

NOTE: A Soldier carrying the Mortar Shells would always have the option on his Action Menu to "Unload Mortar Shells". And in doing so, he would drop the pack containing the Mortar Shells. However, this action would be used to dispose of the pack due to a change of plans or an emergency. In order for these Mortar Shells to be usable at the setup Mortar, he would have to get close to the Mortar. Then a new action would appear in the Soldier's Action Menu (as already described) - "Unload Mortar Shells at Mortar". This would cause the pack containing the Mortar Shells to be placed near the Mortar, linking them together for use.

If a Soldier was killed, or intentionally dropped, they could be picked up by another Soldier or loaded on to a Jeep/HMMVV/Truck.

TARGETING/SHOOTING

Once the Mortar has been setup using the proper Action, and at least one pack of 20 Mortar Shells has been unloaded using the "Unload Mortar Shells at Mortar" Action, the Mortar would be ready for use, and would only require one person - Mortar to operate it.

NOTE: Once Mortar has been setup by the Mortar Soldier, he would be linked to it, much like a Soldier is linked when firing the M2 Machine Gun. He would have to use the action "Get Out" to be free of Mortar and shoot his regular M16 rifle. Otherwise, while linked, the soldier would be crouching near the Mortar, and the Mouse could be used to look around 360 degrees.

In order to target the Mortar, the "Optical View" key would have to be pressed, which would give the Mortar a close up view. In this view, a directional compass - just like the one seen in Tanks/Helicopters on the top most part of the screen would be used to target the Mortar horizontally by moving the mouse Left-Right. As far as targeting Vertically (for distance), Up-Down mouse movements would be used. There would be a distance indicator in this "Optical View", which would display the approximate "impact" distance.

Once the Mortar has been targeted, the Mortar Soldier would get out of the Optical View so that he doesn't upset it with accidental mouse movements. Once back to the normal view, he would use the Fire key to deploy a Mortar. It would take 3 seconds for another shell to be made available for firing.

This sort of targeting wouldn't neccessarily require a "Scout" observing the area being bombed. Mortar could easily use the Map, and knowing that each grid is 125 meters, he could easily calculate the distance to the area he wants to target and thus position the Mortar vertically to match that distance.

Of course, an option would be available to issue an order to any unit to move to the vincinity of the targeted area. Let's say for example, a small town is to be assaulted.

A Mortar could bring up the map, and click on a place that is targeted. That place would remain highlighted on the map as "Mortar Target".

Once this "Mortar Target" has been designated, every Infantry unit under the Mortar's command would have an option on their Action Menu available - "Observe Mortar Target". If Mortar issued order to an Infantryman to execute this action, that Soldier would move as close to the target as possible without being detected.

Then, as the Mortar fires a shell, that unit observing the area would report back with results, such as "Mortar hit at 3 o'clock 100". Meaning the Mortar Shell hit a place 100 meters away from its target in the direction of 3 o'clock.

That observing unit would continue to report after each shell until it was ordered to do otherwise.

While this "Scout" soldier would not be neccessary, it would certainly help the Mortar target better, as the person operating the Mortar could compensate for the wind throwing the shells off.

_

As you see I have given much thought on how this would be carried out, and I do not think this is something the Flashpoint engine is incapable of executing.

It may see complicated, but it's really simple if you only read carefully.

Of course, adding the "whistling" sound to Mortar Shells would certainly add realism and horror to the battlefield.

[scout 0]

in our army a 3" mortar team consist of two ppl.

as u said: 20 rounds per person but its lighter then a fully loaded machine-gunner so no sweat.

i agree with u. maybe some-one will read this stuff.

[advocatexxx 0]

I know most Armies have 2-men Mortar Teams. However in Flashpoint it would be a pain if the Mortar system would need two people to operate and move.

The way I described the Mortar System would definitely benefit if 2 men were used, or a vehicle, but it would still allow the Mortar system to be moved and fired by one person.

After all, if no vehicles or other Soldiers would be available, then that one Mortar soldier could carry the Mortar to its position, SET IT UP, then use the action "Get Out", as I described, and run back to the base for that pack of 20 Mortar shells. Bring them to the already setup Mortar and fire away.

While that method is slow, it still allows the system to be used by one person.

Of course a vehicle such as a Jeep or a Soldier carrying the Shells would certainly be far more efficient.

[DodgeME 0]

Sounds very interesting. Bis would like too add mortars l think. It would be way cool

[walker 0]

FYI

A M224 60mm mortar team is 3 soldiers

a. The squad leader FO (Forward Observer)

b. The gunner operates the sight and aims and lays the mortar

c. The ammunition bearer loads weapon

But a good system would be to have a 12 man team of 4 mortars crewed by two people plus three local protection squad and FOs, plus one Officer FO this fits into the games 12 man setions and aproximates the fire power of the Mortar section of a heavy weapons platoon.

You could make it as a vehicle addon but make its speed zero and make it man portable by adding and removing from the action menue. Other men carry spare rounds.

Like any vehicle unit the soldiers can switch position so if one is killed the rate of fire would drop but not stop.

Or a three man team in a Hummer / BRDM

ammo in the vehicle

The real problem is how to enact indirect fire in the units config.cpp file

The US Marines use larger mortars but they are in Vehicle

I am allready working on a model in Cinema 4d. It will out put .obj

[advocatexxx 0]

Mortars mounted on vehicles are usually 80mm and bigger, some even 120mm.

What I think would make it much less of a headache is the man-portable one.

12 man team of 4 Mortars ? C'mon dude, we're trying to find a solution to easily implement this. Managing a 12 man team of FOs, Gunners, etc. is too complex.

My proposal is the most logical one, as it allows for Mortar Teams as well as one-man operation.

I can assure you, in real life one man can do the job.

[PitViper 0]

[advocatexxx 0]

This is what the final product will look like, lol.

[Relg 0]

That looks freaking awesome! I hope BIS implaments mortars. it could make life real interesting to them snipers who hide in towns. "1, 3, 4, target HOUSE, 10'oclock"

boom! hehe

if they can get that in there, I would also like to see as an afterthought a mortar hummer

[walker 0]

Wow

We are all allready working on the same project

We should pool resources here is a jpg my model.

Picture of my M224 model

PS Who is the person who keeps putting Active x in their posts?

It is driving my security programs nuts.

[Deadman 0]

whats active x

[DodgeME 0]

Is a form of vb(visual basic) that is coded for the net eg a script made to work within broswers.

Visual basic if you don't know is a low-level programming language.

[DodgeME 0]

About those mortars... They look amazing. It would be freaking awesome. The mortars should be available to both Russians and Yanks and even maybe restistance. U guys must work together.

Tweaking for mortars to real life. Like Russians may use bigger mortars but their mortars should be fewer if that is the case..realoding times etc.

Some questions...

1.What ranges those things have?

2.Average realoding times?

3.What kind of ammo shall it be using?

The mortars that are fitted on the M-16? The think in the picture looked like that. I think we shall need a bit more powerful. It would also be anti-personel though only able to kill soldiers and take out light vehicles exept APCs and MTBs.

Also it must be carried with vehicles with large amounts of ammo for continuing shelling. Imagine being under attack for a long time by those while tanks move in. Would be awesome!!!

[walker 0]

The M224 60mm

Specs

Max range dependent on ammo type and charge 3,490 meters down to as little as 538 meters for ilumination rounds

Min Range 70 to 75 meters dependent on whether its on the bipod or hand held

Rate of fire

Up to 30 rounds For the first four minutes again dependent on charge and Ammo

Sustained rate of fire 8 rounds a minute

In the end we will have to do some thing that is aceptable in the game.

And first of all we have to invent an AI usable indirect fire and threat assesment script and chuck in real world physics for the rounds (maybe)

A lot to do yet

[scout 0]

here is a sugestion:

make a 52 mm mortar. its light, can be handled by one person, fit dor squad to platoon ranges: up to 500 m.

ammo:

HE - power like 2 granades

smoke - 1 min worth of smoke

ilumination -1 min of illumination

the mortar and 20 bombs doesnt weight more then              M-60+ammo

no need for towing or carring over vehicles.

and u dont loose a fighter.

and the sighting system is simple: no range dial, and a plain white line on the tube for adjusting.

much much less trouble.

[advocatexxx 0]

Oh sorry, I should have been more clear instead of just sayin "lol". The picture I posted is merely a Photoshop-enhanced picture where I blended a real life M224 into a screenshot from Flashpoint.

[Deadman 0]

didnt mortar crews have a laser range finder as well(dont know about 1985 if they had finders then)

[Broileri 0]

81KRH71Y

This 81mm mortar is used by the Finnish army, and it's probably not very far from the 82mm (was it?) used by the Russians.

Specs (as far as I remember them, it's a few years since I was in the army):

Max range dependent on ammo type and charge: from 5 to 6 kilometres (much less with illuminative rounds, I'm sure).

Min Range: the more you raise the tube, the closer the rounds land. In practice I doubt it would be fired any closer than say 100 metres in any case.

Rate of fire:

Typical fire mission in an attack is 18 rounds per one minute. Depending on the size of the crew and how skilled the loader is, it takes 2-4 seconds to fire a round.

The round takes off the instant it hits the bottom of the tube. There is no "trigger". Basically the loader just keeps lobbing rounds into the tube at the mortar leader's commands.

The Finnish army uses a crew of 5-7. This big crew can carry the mortar (in three 20kg pieces) and the necessary equipment fast enough: The mortar squad is supposed to keep up with an infantry platoon. I'm sure it's possible for two people to carry the whole mortar and even some ammo, if properly motivated.

While it's fairly slower than with the whole crew, two people have no trouble effectively firing the mortar either.

I like advocatexxx's ideas.

In game terms, I'd make the mortar of this caliber completely fixed, movable by vehicles, or movable by two players (ie. one carrying the mortar and the other some ammo) about as slowly as it is in the game to move while aiming a law.

Setting up the mortar should take a while, maybe up to a minute. Rate of fire would be 3-4 seconds.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> And first of all we have to invent an AI usable indirect fire and threat assesment script and chuck in real world physics for the rounds (maybe) <span id='postcolor'>

IMHO If it can be done, real world physics are the way to go. It would be great to see the round flying high up from the mortar or, in the other end, looking up and seeing a small spot growing fast

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">didnt mortar crews have a laser range finder as well(dont know about 1985 if they had finders then)<span id='postcolor'>

In the Finnish army it's the fire observer squad that has the range finders.

[Broileri 0]

120krh92

The 120mm mortar used by the Finnish army, manufactured in 1992. Info from http://www.mil.fi/kalustoesittely/00050.html (in Finnish):

Towed Heavy Mortar

Caliber: 120 mm

Max Range: 7,3 km

Weight of HE-ammo: 12,8 kg

Rate of Fire: 15 rounds per minute

Weight: 500 kg

Crew: 6

In game terms I'd make this kind of thing stationary or movable by truck. Rate of fire should perhaps be about a round in 8-12 seconds for a single player.

[scout 0]

guys, for the games sake! lets stick to 50 mm mortar with a team of one, ok?

[Broileri 0]

Just dropped the info for comparison, I don't demand anyone comes up with a towable 120mm mortar tomorrow.

I agree that the lighter caliber mortars would be perfect to start with. I'm very anxious to see any kind of proper mortar in the game.

Still, the 52mm sounds a bit small to me especially if the sighting system really is that simple. To me, somewhat complex system including a range (ie. vertical) indicator as well as an accurate compass (like eg. in the tanks) would be the very essence of mortars.

But, that's just me.

All in all, I'm very much in favor to the movement/targetting/shooting routines advocatexxx has proposed. Very good ideas.