Respawn killing/base raping/camping...

[Major Fubar 0]

OK, I'd like too see some definitve guidelines from the community about what is considered respawn killing (including base raping, camping etc.) and what is acceptable.

I've been on both ends of this, being accused of respawn killing, and being a victim of it.

Example 1: I was playing one of the big runway CTF missions, and I was camped about 200m from the enemy base under a burnt out truck. When the enemy got close enough to me after leaving their base I plugged 'em with my AK. This resulted in message of "Respawn killer!" and "F*cking camper!". I thought what I was doing was acceptable, but they obviously didn't.

Example 2: Playing a CTF where the objective is to steal enemy vehicles for points. Our respawn was about 300m from where the vehicles we had to protect were. One of the enemy team camped out in the hills above our vehicles with an M21 and plugged me every time I went to that area (Which was basically the only way I could go due to the setup of the map). When I challenged him, he said tough, what he was doing was perfectly acceptable in OFP. (Amusingly, he told me if I didn't like it, go play CS. Since I don't play CS, I'm not sure what he was getting at   )

So please, can the community agree on some sort of guidelines about what is acceptable and what isn't? Stuff like this causes a lot of hostility and grudges between online players. I don't want to be a bad sport, and I don't want to accuse others of poor sportsmanship without just cause.

H E L P !

[§nake 0]

here are my evaluations into your problems..

#1, tell him to go screw himself because hes dumb enough to run into the open.

#2, the best thing you could have done was to grab a dragonov yourself, and plugged his ass. Although this is a time taking situation, you can probably pick him up when he fires a shot to get one of your other team mates runnin for the truck.

In my opinion, base raping is when you sit 3 feet from the flag, so when the guy grabs it you can pop up and blow him away. If you've got the distance, and keep on moving... your good.

[GT-Maddtim 0]

Well, this is the way i look at it:

Spawn Killing - Killing someone with 75m of their spawn site (give or take). If you're moving out of your spawn zone (for instance, to the trucks 300m away in your post), and you get plugged once you're away, shame on you for not taking actions to protect yourself. If you've moved that far you've had time to protect yourself. On the other hand, killing someone just after they spawn and haven't had time to move/find cover IS spawn killing and I frown upon it.

Base Raping - Base rape to me is going into the enemy base and blowing everything up, period. This give you the advantage of tanks/choppers when they have nothing, creating an unfair advantage. In most of the games my clan plays, we play by the rule of shooting only moved/occupied vehicles. That way you still have to earn your win as opposed to shooting unmanned tanks to run up the score.

Camping - what's wrong with that? Many times the situation will call for defensive or stealthy measures. "Camping" could merely be hiding in a bush, or slowly making your way through an area to keep the noise down. Point blank, if you find a good area of cover that affords you protection while you blow the other guys head off, more power too ya.

[kraygh 0]

O.K heres my opinion....

Spawn camping is killing people within their spawn areas.. it is NOT TO BE DONE. Some of the earlier attempts at making MP maps had people spawning near their own flag which made distinguishing this extremely hard, thankfully map makers are now placing spawns further away from flags and including safezones (an excellent idea). I was on the end of some blatent spawn camping last night where twice i was sniped within seconds of spawning, the guy argued that he was at least 300m from our spawn and couldn't possibly be camping it. The use of a sniper rifle to pick people off within their spawn area (no matter how far away you are) is NOT TO BE DONE.

Base Raping is destroying everything within an enemy base, specifically unmanned vehicles in order to deny the enemy their use. This is also considered unfair play and is NOT TO BE DONE. n00bs flying helicopters armed with rockets are the major culprits. If a vehicle isn't manned... dont shoot it.

Major Fubar.... your second example THAT WAS ME!

If you'll recall, i was over your flag area (yes that mission has flags also). Your respawn (which included sufficient ammo crates and vehicles) was well outside my effective range (infact I couldn't even see it). I was providing cover for my teamates to enter and steal the vehicles. You were unfortunate enough to run directly from your spawn (in the wide open spaces) to your flag area... of course I am going to shoot you! The lay of the land gave you ample opportunity to sneak around, it was a forest hillside. Unfortunately for me, your teammate ([AIM] Sludge) was clever enuff to figure their was a sniper in the hills and used some TACTICS and STEALTH to sneak up on me through the forest and drill me with his AK. Good work on his part. I didn't tell you to go play CS, I told you "it's not CS" and covering your teammates advances is the name of the game.. TEAMWORK and COMMUNICATION win everytime (well 9/10 times at least)

[Major Fubar 0]

OK, I'll accept your explanation Kraygh, but I was pretty bottlenecked as to where I could go from my respawn. But you gave a fair explanation. No hard feelings.

Another thing I forgot to mention that really pisses me off is people putting satchels all around their flag....this is just plain stupid. Whats the point of just sitting there until someone gets your flag then blowing the whole area up....especially since OFP doesnt allow you to destroy satchels with bullets/grenades or anything else. Must be really fun, NOT!

[sergeant rock 3]

I don't have much to say about SPAWN CAMPING.  If the maps are designed properly and you move carefully, it shouldn't be a problem.

However what I do disagree with is so-called "BASE RAPING".  Firstly, let me qualify this with the type of maps my squad plays.  We normally play well balanced CTF missions with few vehicles, and particularly vehicles that don't respawn.  We concentrate on small squad tactics and strategy, rather than these mindless "every squad member get in one of the 20 respawning Hinds and strafe every square kilometer with rockets" free-for-alls.  If we approach the enemy flag, and see a vehicle parked near by, that vehicle is dispatched immediately.  It doesn't matter if it is empty or occupied....how do we know?  Am I supposed to order my squad to advance, possibly to their deaths, because that M113 "appears" to be empty?  I don't think so.  I've been bitten in the ass many times by this in the past.  I would move up to the enemy flag, passing "empty" vehicles, only to be lit up by a 30mm canon by someone sitting in a vehicle playing possum.  Would a real-world military unit take that risk?  My thought is, and my squad practices this, is to move any vehicle you are interested in protecting, back to your respawn point until you are ready to use it.  Besides, a well designed mission doesn't have 5 M1A1's and 10 M1A2's just parked at their base, why would the military arm an 8 man squad with all this hardware?  This is a simulator and about realism.  If you enjoy free-for-alls, that's fine, this game is many things to many people.  [RR] prefers the hardcore sim.

"Camping the flag" as people call it, is a perfectly acceptable defensive tactic.  It's not so much "camping" as it is finding a "well concealed defensively superior firing position".  If you're dumb enough to charge into an enemy base and grab their flag because it doesn't "appear" to be defended, and someone fills you full of 7.62mm, that's what mother nature calls "natural selection" and "survival of the fittest".  The proper thing to do is recon and eliminate enemy defenses before making a flag run.  

As far as satchels go, our squad frowns on their use to defend flags.  Mostly because a person could be quite some distance away and activate the charge when they see the message on screen that their flag was taken.  We classify this as cheating.  Good mapmakers however do not populate their ammo crates with satchels for a CTF mission to avoid this kind of BS.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.  Agree with me or not...its just my opinion and the way our squad plays.  You'll never get consensus on this.....

[SGT KAMAI USMC 0]

You guys make no sense. I will admit I hate it when I am getting spawn raped, but shame on me and my poor tactics, for letting an enemy get there. And shame on the Map makers for not creating respawns in covered locations. Quit crying about it, and fight back!

I cant believe the amount of whining that goes on in OFP. I thought this game would be a better more tactics minded community, but it seems to me to be the same whiny bunch.

THINK LIKE A REAL WARRIOR! this isnt a football game with rules and refs, this is a combat simulation for god sakes. In War it is a common tactic to cut off enemy suply routes, and destroy his ability to make war. THIS IS WHAT YOU CALL DESTROYING EMPTY VEHICLES! And SPAWN CAMPING. With your arguement against blowing empty vehicles you are in essence saying it leaves you with an unfair disadvantage right? Well I guess I shouldnt shoot your squad mates either right? I mean that would leave you at an unfair advantage right? Look protect your SPAWNS, PROTECT YOUR MOTOR POOLS!

CAMPING is also known as Patroling, and ambush. Could also be considered DEFENSE!

I mean realy you guys are getting rediculous with the crying about this stuff. Develop effective tactics to counter Camping, base/ spawn raping.

I guess what it all comes down to is what kind of game you want this to be..

1. A souped up version of all the FPS's that came before it, or

2. A UNIQUE KICK ASS COMBAT SIMULATION!!!

I will take choice #2

[SGT KAMAI USMC 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sergeant Rock @ April 02 2002,19:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> 

As far as satchels go, our squad frowns on their use to defend flags.  Mostly because a person could be quite some distance away and activate the charge when they see the message on screen that their flag was taken.  We classify this as cheating.  Good mapmakers however do not populate their ammo crates with satchels for a CTF mission to avoid this kind of BS.<span id='postcolor'>

ROCK good post. I agree with just about everything except your comment about sathcels. I think it is lame too that squads can do that however....

It is a smart tactic.

I think the finger of shame should be pointed at map makers who insist on making a message pop up everytime someone takes the flag. It should be silent. Make the enemy (if they are gonna try to use satchels to defend it) have to actually see the flag taken. This is another Arcade type of map making which limits the potential of this game.

[Major Fubar 0]

Sgt Kamai, is it really whining when some asshole parks an M2A2 15 metres from your respawn, then cuts loose with a 25mm full auto cannon as soon as someone reappears, giving them no chance to react?

Yes, it is supposed to be a military simulation, and thats what most of us love about OFP. But (news flash) it is also a game, you know, where part of the object is also to have fun?

IRL armies have rules of engagement they must follow, why not in OFP? Yes, if you come up with a good tactic and it works, well done. But some things that can be exploited in the game are just a metter of common sense and fair play. What next, it's OK to email computer viruses to your opponents as this is a "cunning and clever" combat strategy?

If trying to establish a set of rules of engagement for OFP MP is whining, then, guilty as charged.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SGT KAMAI USMC @ April 03 2002,01:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">CAMPING is also known as Patroling, and ambush. Could also be considered DEFENSE!<span id='postcolor'>

This is the same Kamai that starts callin me a camper when I hand his ass to him in OFP.

[kraygh 0]

Fubar, no worries m8, I wasn't bad mouthing or anything... just wanted to state my case

Kamai, taking out a threat (unmanned or manned) in order to advance to a target is acceptable, what I am referring to (and was stated in my post) is idiots who leap into their helos and blow the shit out of everything you have, most annoyingly your weapons crates. Its not a matter of protecting your assets/defending, with these sort of ppl playing its a matter of hiding from their indiscriminate salvos. I have no problem with people who use them to a tactical advantage. Some more effective AA weaponry would be useful against these clowns.

As far as satchels to defend flags goes, It would be better to be able to dis-arm any you see in the vicinity before grabbing the flag.

[SGT KAMAI USMC 0]

TEX I hate camping on a DM map. Thats an arcade map DM has no real tactical value lol. Besides I hate this stuff as much as these guys all do but they are wrong for saying it should be against the rules lol, or violate a code of game ethics ROTFLMAO!!!

Cmon man wtf are you talking about IRL rules for war?

Are you on crack?

I happen to be in the business of RL war, and let me tell you, there are rules, more like laws. And yes they exist. However, talk to the chechnyans about rules, or the russians, Maybe a good conversation with former Nazi's might spawn some good points about rules in war. I hear the Viet Cong have some interesting ideas about the rules of war. Anyway be realistic man. The only rule that stands any merit in the heat of battle is survival! And do whatever it takes to survive the fight. Face punishment later. LMAO rules of war. lol usually written by some politician thousands of miles from the fight, and out of harms way.

If you dont want the guy parking the tank close to your spawn, then kill him before he can get there. OR USE A MAP WITH A SAFEZONE!!!

Here is where you can get the info on making maps with safe respawn zones.

http://www.ofpeditingcenter.com/cgi-bin....5419323

[Lt_Damage 0]

I agree, except only blackops / spetz natz should be able to disarm, which would increase reliance on teamwork and strategic role selection.

Now.. back to my argument with Suma.. trying to get some much needed features added.....

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

For me its simple.

I play in a squad, we play squad wars and friendly matches vs each other. About 2-3 hours is done per night so its not a problem for me to get some matches going.

I dont play on ffa (or hardly none) servers anymore. Since i dont like playing by their rules.

I hate spawncampers, and i hate when people blow up emtys. Yes, i do it in clan wars to give the enemy an disadvantage, but not in friendly matches.

I never play those crappy 40+ vehicles on each site (you know what maps im talking about), i preferably play missions with maximum 3 vehicles on each side (not more than 1 tank), this gives the game the athmosphear it belongs, instead of people rushing out in their own tank and when its destroyed they say "oh well, ill just grap another".

This is NOT what ofp is about. And if I should decide, I would ban vehicles from the game, and make it a infantry game only (with a few light armored vehicles). Would also make the netcode work alot better.

As i said, i hate spawncampers. Defensive "campers" is no problem, since thats a perfectly acceptable tactic.

But this is a game, if u cant tell the dif, maybe u should go out some more.

[Darkhawk 0]

1) I agree with getting rid of the "flag has been taken by" message because in reallity you would always have someone posted at the flag guarding it (In CTF I alway's go to the flag to guard it).

2) I use satchels and mines to guard the flag because they are the most effective; because when was the last time you saw a guy just run to the flag. Majority of the time they are in armour and have more then one person inside the tank; so I set off the satches and if that dose not destroy the armour a Anti-tank rocket finshes it off.

3) Camping is a part of the game; Just like in hockey you have defence and offence but if every one on the hockey team goes offence then it will be no fun and you won't get the same rush!

I think to many people are more used to playing CS and Quake then they are a real world situation!

[Aculaud 0]

well, i would think real world situatons would be a bit harder to come by than a decent gaming server for that night.

I think people focus too heavily on thrid party rules and regulations. First off, if you dont like how someone is playing in your server, you can always boot them. Second, who ever said there are rules in war? I mean, if you commited a war crime by killing civilians or something, youd probably be punished for it after the fact, but theres no chance for anything like that in OFP. I say just go with the flow and learn to overcome.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SGT KAMAI USMC @ April 03 2002,08:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Cmon man wtf are you talking about IRL rules for war?

Are you on crack?

I happen to be in the business of RL war, and let me tell you, there are rules, more like laws. And yes they exist. However, talk to the chechnyans about rules, or the russians, Maybe a good conversation with former Nazi's might spawn some good points about rules in war. I hear the Viet Cong have some interesting ideas about the rules of war. Anyway be realistic man. The only rule that stands any merit in the heat of battle is survival!<span id='postcolor'>

So basically you are saying that the tactics emplyed by the armies you have stated as examples are OK, and the only rules of war should be kill anything and everything you need to to win. I know Im trying to draw a comparison between real life and a game, but I think it's a valid point.

If I understand you correctly, you are endorsing the actions of "Chechnyans, Russians, Nazis and Viet Cong", and saying that given half a chance you would use them too? Am I understanding you right?

[SGT KAMAI USMC 0]

I dont condone it, what I am saying is it is a reality you need to be prepared to defend against! And in the context of OFP, you need to be prepared to defend yourself against "guerilla" tactics. The european colonists when fighting the native Americans used to view the indians use of camoflauge, ambush, and and general guerilla tactics, the same way you view the tactics of spawn camping, raping ect. Think about how every warrior felt who had to face an army with a machine gun for the first time in history. I am sure they thought it wasnt fair lol. Anyway tactics and technology of different enemies have changed the way wars are fought. This is why we dont just get online and pound at each other toe to toe anymore.

But as far as my own actions in rl. You are absolutely correct! If it came down to it, I would have to say given a choice between dying or living to fight another day. I am number one, and I will do what ever it takes to protect myself, my fellow Marines, and come home to my wife and daughter safe. I dont know how low I would go though. I can say we would only know when pushed to that point. Everything said out of the context of the moment of truth is merely speculation.

Screw the politics. I wish it didnt have to be that way, but to ask for a man to surrender his chances of survival just to serve some political, or idealogical agenda is crazy.  It is exactly what terrorist recruiters ask of those they recruit. We just try to make it seem more ethical.

I will do my job, and follow orders, for my beliefs, and for the ideals, I personaly hold true. But to unreasonably fight in a manner that knowingly leaves the enemy room to kill me is asking a lot.

Lol man diplomacy interferes with the laws of nature and natural selection anyway. Damn we gotta kill this thread, its getting to philisophical for me.

[A Minor Threat 0]

In my opinion, if one team is good enough to rape/respawn kill and another team sucks enough to be a victim of it, it's fine with me. If anyone can pull it off well enough, they can go right ahead for all I care. Most people only oppose these things because they just finneshed getting q0wned in a game and haven't had time to blow their steam.

[SGT KAMAI USMC 0]

I agree minor threat. I bitch to when I am getting spawn raped and camped, but I know it is my own fault for not Playing smarter.

[Aculaud 0]

I think we've all bitched before. No one hasnt, i guarentee it. Its just you losing to a particular challenge. As i said, learn to overcome. Something youve got up your sleeve has to work

[Enron Exec 0]

Spawn Raping is pretty sad, but I dont see it happen much anymore. On some maps with the vehicles only by the respawn, and the respawns are out of sight of the flag or at least a bit far away from teh flag, there is no problem. There are alot of good CTF maps that seperate Spawns and Flag bases at the MTCO server.