New un resolution

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Mar. 14 2002,09:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yes but you dont see the tanks just targeting the biggest group of innocent people they can find do you?  you dont see them just roll into a town and start murdering as many people as possable..<span id='postcolor'>

The palestinians are suicide bombing civilians, because they do not have any other means to strike back at the moment. They cannot strike military targets, because they are too well defended. In desperate situations, people use desperate means. They will not surrender either, because it is not an option for them.

You can compare this to the terror bombing of german cities during WWII. The allies didn't have any other means at the moment to strike at the germans, so they used terror bombing of civilians. There are no rules to war, when the war gets desperate.

If the palestinians had tanks and planes and helos and the israelis had a few AKs, the situation would be reversed. You can only pretend that you're a noble convention-respecting democracy, if you have a load of military power.

[Longinius 1]

"how is palestinian suicide bombers targeting civilians equate to "getting back" for what the isreal gov/military does?"

So its not OK for palestinians to target Israeli civilians, but it is OK for Israeli tanks to blow up civilian cars WITH women and children in them, it is OK for them to fire on ambulances, it is OK for them to fire at civilians trying to get to hospital? Both sides are doing fucked up things. As long as both sides continue, it will never stop. But I am sure you Wobble would never target any civilians even if your kid brother, your best friends pregnant sister and her mother got killed. (Yes, this goes for both sides. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilians have died. Their friends and relatives want revenge and dont care if ther other sides civilians get it.)

"at least isreal makes some sort of.. though sometimes vague attempt at getting the people who attacked them.. while the palestinians just look for the biggest juicyest crowd of people.. doesent matter if they are all women and children.. heck.. the more the marrier.."

No true. Recently most of the attacks have been directed at IDF targets. Yes, there are attacks against purely civilian targets aswell but you have to understand that the Palestinians doing the fighting do not all belong to one recognised official unit. They are civilians, terrorists, freedom fighters and maniacs mixed into one big pile called Palestinians.

And in the end Israel blaims them ALL.

"yes but you dont see the tanks just targeting the biggest group of innocent people they can find do you? you dont see them just roll into a town and start murdering as many people as possable.."

Yes, you do.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Miss_Cleo @ Mar. 14 2002,10:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i seem to remember some rather indiscriminate arty or helicopter attacks in years past.. not to mention the old shoot the kid throwing rocks bit.

i disagree w/ the bombings. but how many people killed in this recent military action were bombers and how many were just resisting an invasion of there home?

i think israel could eliminate a big chunk of thier problem by simply giving back the "occupied territories" the argument that the ocupied territories serve as a buffer against invasion of israel doesent hold when you take into account that theyve been displacing palestinians and sending settlers into there for almost 30 years<span id='postcolor'>

Indiscriminate? They're usually pinpoint. 100%? No, war is like that. Ask George Bush in Afghanistan. He knows or he should by now.

How many people killed in bombings were bombers or gunmen? A good proportion, if not the majority. It doesn't help them that they based themselves deep within residential neighborhoods, in appartments, stores and factories. That's what they want? That's what they get.

Please come here and show me a "settlement" that displaced someone. The only ones you'll find are those that didn't even have land entitlement under Jordanian law. Almost all of these "Settlements" are on arid hilltops that didn't have a single dwelling on or near them.

The 1967 borders weren't secure 35 years ago and they're even less so now. Jordan, as a neighbor, was reasonable. Having bloodthirsty beasts (yes, all of them) at the door is another matter.

If it weren't for the settlements and for us being there, things could have been a hundred times worse and much sooner.

Keep it up folks! You've swallowed everything the press and the WEB has fed you for years and years.

[Longinius 1]

"Indiscriminate? They're usually pinpoint. 100%? No, war is like that. Ask George Bush in Afghanistan. He knows or he should by now."

Yeah, all kinds of collateral damage are acceptable though, right? Like a woman and two kids in a car in rush hour traffic, as long as the target was taken out? Sure thing.

"How many people killed in bombings were bombers or gunmen? A good proportion, if not the majority. It doesn't help them that they based themselves deep within residential neighborhoods, in appartments, stores and factories. That's what they want? That's what they get."

Well, they friggin live there. Are they supposed to pitch tents in the fields and wait for the choppers to come in? Yeah, cause I am sure you yourself would make yourself an easy target. You would not hide in whatever buildings you could find, you would stand in the open with a big red flag with the text "Friggin shoot me!"

[Wobble 1]

so well.. what is sireal supposed to do?

"well we cant get them now.. their at home.. oh well"

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Mar. 14 2002,10:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"how is palestinian suicide bombers targeting civilians equate to "getting back" for what the isreal gov/military does?"

So its not OK for palestinians to target Israeli civilians, but it is OK for Israeli tanks to blow up civilian cars WITH women and children in them, it is OK for them to fire on ambulances, it is OK for them to fire at civilians trying to get to hospital? Both sides are doing fucked up things. As long as both sides continue, it will never stop. But I am sure you Wobble would never target any civilians even if your kid brother, your best friends pregnant sister and her mother got killed. (Yes, this goes for both sides. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilians have died. Their friends and relatives want revenge and dont care if ther other sides civilians get it.)

"at least isreal makes some sort of.. though sometimes vague attempt at getting the people who attacked them.. while the palestinians just look for the biggest juicyest crowd of people.. doesent matter if they are all women and children.. heck.. the more the marrier.."

No true. Recently most of the attacks have been directed at IDF targets. Yes, there are attacks against purely civilian targets aswell but you have to understand that the Palestinians doing the fighting do not all belong to one recognised official unit. They are civilians, terrorists, freedom fighters and maniacs mixed into one big pile called Palestinians.

And in the end Israel blaims them ALL.

"yes but you dont see the tanks just targeting the biggest group of innocent people they can find do you?  you dont see them just roll into a town and start murdering as many people as possable.."

Yes, you do.<span id='postcolor'>

More crap from another passive antisemite, Longinius. You always were, contrary to what you think.

The target was a Hamas terrorist's car, the occupants were his family. Isreali, stupidly so in my opinion, even publicly apologized.

I would love to see all you Europeans in a terrorist war, always hitting precise targets and never making mistakes. Self righteous bastards, all of you.

Ambulances? Let's see. I've seen enough Pal. Red Crescent abulances ferrying gunmen to hot spots. The one that was shot at 2 weeks ago blew up. Maybe out soldiers hit the gas tank, I don't know. What is known is that it tried to run the road block - brilliant thing to do - when the roadblocks are set up to detect travelling suicide and car bombers. But these are trivial details......... Jewish blood is cheap.

We don't want revenge. We want it stopped. Do you see us going out into the streets by the thousands, dancing with joy at the blood that is spilled? How warped are you?!

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 14 2002,09:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jewish blood is cheap.<span id='postcolor'>

Looking at the bodycount, the palestinian blood is even cheaper. Whatever that means.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Mar. 14 2002,10:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yeah, all kinds of collateral damage are acceptable though, right? Like a woman and two kids in a car in rush hour traffic, as long as the target was taken out? Sure thing.<span id='postcolor'>

If a terrorist takes advantage of civilians, I have no problem with this. There's a war going on here and if I have to choose between them and me, it's them.

They are based in populated civilian areas, they live there and they have their weapons caches and hideouts there. The PA never did anything to hinder them and has always promoted them publicly but not in ENglish in front of CNN.

[Longinius 1]

"More crap from another passive antisemite, Longinius. You always were, contrary to what you think."

I am not an antisemite. I have nothing against jews. I have something against how the nation of Israel is behaving in this conflict however. And no, I don't think the Palestinians are acting any better, nor worse.

"The target was a Hamas terrorist's car, the occupants were his family. Isreali, stupidly so in my opinion, even publicly apologized."

Yes, and this makes it allright. Because, it has never happened before and it will never happen again.

"I would love to see all you Europeans in a terrorist war, always hitting precise targets and never making mistakes. Self righteous bastards, all of you."

I am sure its a hard war to fight and you always have accidents. But attacking a car on a busy street? That just has such a high percentage of going wrong that you should not do it.

"Ambulances? Let's see. I've seen enough Pal. Red Crescent abulances ferrying gunmen to hot spots. The one that was shot at 2 weeks ago blew up. Maybe out soldiers hit the gas tank, I don't know. What is known is that it tried to run the road block - brilliant thing to do - when the roadblocks are set up to detect travelling suicide and car bombers. But these are trivial details......... Jewish blood is cheap."

No, but Palestinian blood sure is. Since there goes many Palestinians to each Jew killed, they seem to be much cheaper.

"We don't want revenge. We want it stopped. Do you see us going out into the streets by the thousands, dancing with joy at the blood that is spilled? How warped are you?!"

You can never stop a conflict like this by escalating it. You can stop it by either killing the enemy all out or try and tone down the conflict. It will never get better by killing more people.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Mar. 14 2002,10:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Looking at the bodycount, the palestinian blood is even cheaper. Whatever that means.<span id='postcolor'>

We are not calling out for masses of martyrs to go and confront them. They are! We didn't start this war, they did? We attempted to retain unilteral cease fires twice, they never did.

Why should even one of our lives be lost for a war we didn't start and didn't ask for? What absurd logic?!

They have a total disregard for their own lives. Pardon us for being overall better protected and being able to take 3 of their live for each of ours.

[Longinius 1]

"If a terrorist takes advantage of civilians, I have no problem with this. There's a war going on here and if I have to choose between them and me, it's them."

This means any IDF soldier on vacation is a legit target then? And if he is sitting on a bus with his family you can target them all? No, that is not right. You have to make your damndest to avoid civilian casualties, even if its the family of the intended target. Because if you don't, you can't really claim to be wrongly treated when your own civilians get killed.

[miss_cleo 0]

tell you what... we'll take the palestinians out.. then the UN will come over and say that the jews are all gonna hafta get lost cause were giving israel to the native americans or kosvars or kurds or aborigonies or somebody else that history gave the shit-end of the stick.. then we'll wait to see how long it takes for jews to start bombing shopping plazas and such

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Mar. 14 2002,10:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, but Palestinian blood sure is. Since there goes many Palestinians to each Jew killed, they seem to be much cheaper.<span id='postcolor'>

That's how you measure right and wrong? That's how you measure win or lose?

Everything's a football match to you Europeans.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ Mar. 14 2002,09:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If a terrorist takes advantage of civilians, I have no problem with this. There's a war going on here and if I have to choose between them and me, it's them.<span id='postcolor'>

But you have to understand that you can never win this war and neither can they. Even with all the fancy military equipment you have, you can not be victorious. For every palestinian terrorist you kill, the ten people who witnessed it will take up arms against you. Unless you physically eliminate every palestinian living in the problem areas, that is. Is that the road you want to travel? Do you know where that road leads?

You have to agree to many of their terms. They have to agree to many of your terms. You cannot dictate unilateral terms any longer, unless you kill them ALL.

[Longinius 1]

"That's how you measure right and wrong? That's how you measure win or lose?"

No. You said Jewish blood was cheap, I said that Palestinian blood must be cheaper. Or are you telling me that you think Palestinians are worth as much as Jews? I really doubt you or anyone else on your 'side' thinks so.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Mar. 14 2002,10:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This means any IDF soldier on vacation is a legit target then? And if he is sitting on a bus with his family you can target them all? No, that is not right. You have to make your damndest to avoid civilian casualties, even if its the family of the intended target. Because if you don't, you can't really claim to be wrongly treated when your own civilians get killed.<span id='postcolor'>

That's what they've been claiming all along. Since when did they only target Soldiers in uniform.

It's simply amazing how you cry out for the poor Palestinians who have practically invented this terrorism in its worst form since the PLO was founded in 1964 - 3 years before the the 6 day war even occurred.

[Longinius 1]

"It's simply amazing how you cry out for the poor Palestinians who have practically invented this terrorism in its worst form since the PLO was founded in 1964 - 3 years before the the 6 day war even occurred."

There is no need for me to cry out for the Jews of Israel. Plenty of Jews are doing that crying allready. That side is very well reprsented and covered. Maybe overly so.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Oligo @ Mar. 14 2002,10:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But you have to understand that you can never win this war and neither can they. Even with all the fancy military equipment you have, you can not be victorious. For every palestinian terrorist you kill, the ten people who witnessed it will take up arms against you. Unless you physically eliminate every palestinian living in the problem areas, that is. Is that the road you want to travel? Do you know where that road leads?

You have to agree to many of their terms. They have to agree to many of your terms. You cannot dictate unilateral terms any longer, unless you kill them ALL.<span id='postcolor'>

The whole concept was wrong to begin with.

Yes, we can win. By being decisive. Every day's another stupid incursion, arrest a few gunmen and find a few rockets. Most reprisals consists of targeting empty building (they even hit a building in Bethlehem last week that had already been hit 2 days before).

We're the lunatic country that rallied for peace and went totally messianic over it 7 years ago - not them. Now we're just beginning to wake up to reality. You can't make peace with these people - period.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Miss_Cleo @ Mar. 14 2002,10:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">tell you what... we'll take the palestinians out.. then the UN will come over and say that the jews are all gonna hafta get lost cause were giving israel to the native americans or kosvars or kurds or aborigonies or somebody else that history gave the shit-end of the stick.. then we'll wait to see how long it takes for jews to start bombing shopping plazas and such<span id='postcolor'>

We didn't take the Palestinians out.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Mar. 14 2002,10:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is no need for me to cry out for the Jews of Israel. Plenty of Jews are doing that crying allready. That side is very well reprsented and covered. Maybe overly so.<span id='postcolor'>

By "overly so", are you showing your anit-semitism by stating that you believe in the great conspiracy of Zionist control of the press?

[miss_cleo 0]

i know that.. i meant removeing them from the hypothetical question. as in pretend they were never there.

[Longinius 1]

"By "overly so", are you showing your anit-semitism by stating that you believe in the great conspiracy of Zionist control of the press? "

Again, I am not an anti-semit. You on the other hand seem to be a racist.

No, I don't believe there is a Jewish consipracy that controls the press. There are however more rich Jews in the western world with lots of influence than there are rich Arabs. This affects how many people, including news media, view the conflict. If not for the Jewish lobbying in the US for example, I doubt the US would have backed Israel at all.

[miss_cleo 0]

i disagree longinus. i think that the majority of support for israel stemsfrom the fact that many americans feel guilty,(as we should), for fucking over the jews by not stepping in in the 30's

[Longinius 1]

"i disagree longinus. i think that the majority of support for israel stemsfrom the fact that many americans feel guilty,(as we should), for fucking over the jews by not stepping in in the 30's"

Lets just disagree then. Because I think many Americans feel guilt about the native indians but they have not recieved nearly as much benefits from the US as Israel has.

Further more, peoples guilt don't matter much. It is not the people that make these decisions. It is made by politicians. And most politicians I have seen or heard of does not seem to be driven by guilt or concern for OTHER nations people.

[miss_cleo 0]

i also think that the US govt seems to think that it will benefit from a certain amount of tension in the region, tho they will never admit to that