Natural Computer Controlled Units...

[An-225 0]

This is something that should definitely be improved on for ArmA 2. Right now, the AI can do a lot of things that a human player cannot do.

First of all, armour can sense anyone sitting in a vehicle. I tested this, placing a T-72 on a hill a kilometer away from my BLUFOR soldier, who was placed on another hill, with a clear view of the T-72. The T-72 was facing away from my soldier. I had an M119 placed right next to me.

After watching the T-72 for 10 seconds, it made no movements to respond to my presence on foot. I got into the M119. The turret swings around at me, and a SABOT is fired.

The same test was conducted on Rahmadi, with the T-72 placed a few meters infront of my BLUFOR rifleman, facing away. I used an M2, an AGS-30, a Mk.19, a HMMWV, the Lada and a searchlight. In all instances, it killed me as soon as I got into the vehicle or object.

Tanks also have unnatural FOVs. In one test, I went prone and crawled underneath the vision blocks of a T-72. As soon as I crawled underneath the front, the gunner and commander started targeting me.

In another test, I made my BLUFOR rifleman get into the back of a BMP. An OPFOR BMP had a waypoint to drive past me, and when he did, he fired an ATGM at me. How would you know if I'm sitting in the back of a BMP, of all things?

Groups also ruin stealth missions completely. It is impossible to kill a group member without everyone else knowing about it. Another test. A team leader was placed at South West entrance to Somato. Another rifleman in his group was placed a kilometer away.

My BLUFOR specialist spawned behind the rifleman. After killing him with an M4SD (with SD ammo), I ran the kilometer to the group leader. Sure enough, the group leader was lying prone on the ground, looking in my direction.

The same thing did not happen if I ungrouped the two.

The test was repeated, grouped and ungrouped at a smaller distance (within visual range) with the same respective results.

I don't think anyone would complain if the list above was improved?

[Takko 10]

Hi,

Your suggestions are on the lowest prority as possible in my book, because I do not see it as a gamebreaker because I'm used to it and its really tiny.

My BLUFOR specialist spawned behind the rifleman. After killing him with an M4SD (with SD ammo), I ran the kilometer to the group leader. Sure enough, the group leader was lying prone on the ground, looking in my direction.

Well, that he looked in your direction is rather coincidence for me. As long as there is no visual contact, the officer is in prone position and is watching all the sides and angles and not in a particular direction, except he heard you.

I don't think anyone would complain if the list above was improved??

Well, I'd complain when the game delays because of this and is bringing new bugs (for example that enemy T72's are not shooting on a captured T72 anymore).

Excuse me my word order, I'm writin that from a mobile.

[An-225 0]

But why should the AI be more capable than the human players? Why? This could be considered game breaking, as the AI can sense things a human simply cannot.

The fact that he looked at me was no coincidence. It would be impossible to hear me. A kilometre away, with a silenced weapon (with the correct ammo)? I repeated the same test, without the soldiers in a group, and he didn't turn around.

I placed them 20 metres apart, in a group. As soon as I dropped the soldier behind the team leader, the leader turned around and shot me. I repeated this without the soldiers in a group. The leader just stood there.

It is gamebreaking, especially when you take into consideration the skill of the AI. Stealth SHOULD be possible in a game focusing on realism, without every soldier in the base knowing exactly where you are.

[Jex =TE= 0]

I agree. The commanding unit is not going to know you are around a km away and it is totally unrealistic, as is the occupying vehicle feature but as soon as you enter the vehicle, the magic radar ruins everything.

imo they need to rework the radar (which by looking at arma 2 screenies, they haven't). If we're after a realisitc sim then why resort to an unrealistic method. For the armour part of the game maybe they could take a look at M1 Tank Platoon by Microprose. Imo the AI should only detect you if one of the 3 crewman is looking in your direction and you're in their FOV. A percentage could be given that is lowered by weather, distance, stationary (both observer and target), length of time looking, optics (thermal, etc), skylining and objects partially obscuring the target (so hull down with just the turret poking over a hill for instance). The crew's skill could increase their chance to spot, as well as how often they look (meaning diversions could work rather well too)

But you comments on stealth need some clarification. There isn't really such thing as a silenced weapon. The M4 cannot cycle the bolt mechanism using them and whilst they bring the sound down, if you're 20 m away you're going to be heard. Remember falling bodies also make a sound as do the screams of the dying. (there are some good vids on you tube about silenced - one in particular where some guy compares loads of guns and I think the .22 came out the quietest).

However I think some leeway is required here because we all like stealth missions like we see in the movies. They are not realistc but I think it adds an extra challenge when you're trying to sneak in somewhere rather than blast your way in.

Edited April 18, 2009 by Jex =TE=

[An-225 0]

Sure, I did a rather half-assed attempt at explaining the stealth part on foot, but now that the armour is out of the way, I can give it another shot.

The only time dead soldiers were detected when killed by a silenced...or, suppressed weapon, was when they were placed into groups.

So, I could place two people in a group a kilometre apart, kill one, and then the other person would instantly know my position.

But if I placed two ungrouped people 10 meters apart, facing the same direction, and killed the one at the rear the fore soldier would not notice. It has everything to do with the group system, rather like magic radar.

I do realise that the sound of a body falling can be heard, as can the suppressed weapon, but that is not what I'm suggesting is changed. Currently, the AI automatically know when a soldier in their group is dead.

[Jex =TE= 0]

Yeah i know about the grouped thing and agree, it's unrealistic but I guess it's tied to the grouped unit working together all the time and reporting to each other. Changing this seems to me to require they completely change the way groups work (which I am in favour of). Similarly though if 2 guys are only 10m apart, it also seems unrealisitc that he is compeltely stupid to what is going on around him.

Currently the simple way around it is to not group soldiers if they are guarding stuff - this way you can at least make stealth missions.

[An-225 0]

I also thought about the teamwork between groups, however, the reaction time for the other members in the group is phenomenal for this sort of thing. And if the group is simply sitting there guarding something, they will not sit there spamming, "Report Status."

I make small stealth missions using the ungrouped workaround, but it would be nice if we didn't have to use a workaround for something like this, and true stealth could be attained even with groups.

It would be really nice if you could kill off a group of patrolling guards from the rear, so they don't notice.

Having several enemies knowing EXACTLY where you are within seconds of killing their squad mate isn't exactly stealth mission friendly.

[Jex =TE= 0]

I just tested satchel charges as a while ago, when playing domination and taking on the side mission for convoy, my friend was sat in a bush to det. his charges (hmmm innuendo? lol ;)) - anyway as soon as he set them off the shilka lit him up.

So i tested this on rahmadi with a ural truck and shilka in convoy with truck up front. at 200m lying down in the open but next to a bush got me killed withing seconds of detonating the charge, meaning the shilka new exactly where I was.

If I crouched behind a bush it looked at my direction first but didn't see me and then carried on.

Detonating a charge should not give away your position at all. All it should do is put the enemy on high alert and make them start looking for contacts.

This instant targetting is a major flaw in arma so I hope they ditch it eventually for a better system.

[wipman 1]

Hi, the AI should be a bit better than in the ArmA for many reasons, their superpowers are

way too powerfull most of the times and way too below the human standards on other

ocasions, like pathfinding; they need at least 3'5m whide corridors and without any object

walkable or not for follow that corridor and not get stunk at the entrance "thinking" if enter

or not. They also need a improvement inside buildings, they go prone unless in the stairs.

grouped unit working together all the time and reporting to each other.

The deads don't report anything; that don't have any explain other than bad made AI.

Other thing that the AI do and they shouldn't... is when they're at +450m facing in X

direction and they spot you and open fire at you, when their whole body it's looking West

but they open fire at the South (at your possition); that's very annoying too in many

aspects. The AI needs some important improvements from the ArmA's AI.

[Mr_Tea 0]

I think the AI should, and Humans would, rather shoot that vehicle to bits of peaces, assuming there is someone in it that has simply not seeing you now.

I would not wait to get shot at.

How many empty vehicles would be around for real?

The AI should shoot at enemy vehicles, empty or not. But not if i, as an BLUFOR Unit, capture an UAZ and get shot by my people from a few meters away. In that case the AI should be able to see that there is an friendly Unit driving that UAZ.:rolleyes:

[Jex =TE= 0]

The AI should shoot at enemy vehicles, empty or not.

Yes they should in some circumstances but not the point raised. The issue relates to the AI ignoring a vehicle until you sit in it whereby they magically know that not only someone is sitting in it, but also who's side they are on.

[50.cal 10]

BI did already improve AI in many ways. Their precision in path finding will be reduced down to centimeters and they will sort of move tactically...IMO we will not see any other improvement concerning AI in Arma 2. I'd be glad to be wrong but I bet I won't.

Why? Because this game is already sold to all of you requesting things on this forum...and for all others as well. The only difference is the others will come here after to request the same thing you're asking for now : )

[Alex72 1]

What Wipman said. AI needs to be a bit more sensitive than us otherwise we will outsmart them too easy making the game - too easy. Something that BIS really, i mean REALLY came through with was that 1.08 and earlier builds the AI had super sensitive spider senses. For example if you placed a vehicle mine on a road and then ran away from there some 200 meters hiding so they couldnt see you at all, and they were hundreds of meters away when you placed it there - they would immediatelly know where you were and went to kill you. This is not how it is now.

It can be annoying with the enemy know where you are ofcourse, but what i want to be a bit better than ARMA now is the vegetation. Make the bushes, grass and all vegetation that really covers you - block AI's view to you. So that we can sneak from cover to cover without being seen. The ARMA AI do have good hearing as well - bit too good maybe - and will know where you are if you do noisy things. Noisy like open and close a humvee's door maybe.

Alex

[An-225 0]

Mr_Tea, the point is, how does the BMP know I'm hiding in the back when no one was around to see me get in?

Alex, you have raised an interesting point there (outsmart them too easily). However, if the player can think of such an elaborate sabotage scenario, the AI has already been outsmarted, yet the current spider senses stop any well thought out Spec Ops plans from going forward.

Why use an artificial method of balancing player skill vs. NPC skill? The AI should try and outsmart us back, trying different tactics rather than simply being impossible to outsmart.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Imo AI should see and suspect/"guess" things like human players do. Full AI viewblock in bushes doesnt make sense and dumbs down the possibility of beeing detected. Irl it makes some noise and recognisable movements. You must be very careful and of course very slow if you want avoid beeing detected. ;) AI hearing and seeing should be fine-tuned and AI reaction bit slowed down and more depending on AI skill.

Ask yourself if you see a OPFOR vehicle in combat area - what is the first your are thinking of + doing? It would be nice if BIS could make a option to attach some kind of colored signs/scarfs for such friendly-foe issues.