Palestinian case.

[el Gringo Loco 1]

Prime minister Sharon of Israel doesn't have any hopes left on a meaningful round of negotiations with Arafat. Sharon is looking for pragmatic palestinian regional leaders and regrets the fact that he didn't ordered Arafat killed some twenty years ago in Libanon.

At the moment Israel is holding Arafat de facto captive in Ramallah. And the worst a political leader as Arafat can happen is being called irrelevant, which sharon did some time ago.

The US government, visited by Sharon a couple of days ago to plead them into dropping Arafat also, doesn't agree with Sharon. However that Bush promised to keep the pressure on Arafat he refused to break all contacts with the palestinian leader. That is a good move, however a little pressure on Sharon to do the same wouldn't be unbecoming.

Because how wise is it for Israel to drop Arafat completely as the palestinian leader and to undermine his authority? Arafat may not be the best leader and a capricious negotiator, but he is still for the majority of the palestinian people the most appealing leader, who is also recognized internationally as such. Arafat symbolizes the palestinian people.

Besides: Israel has no word in that. Only the palestinian people  can decide who should take the leadership over them. When Arafat is written off and changed for a leader which is acceptable for Sharon, will this leader not be accepted by the palestinian people just for the reason that he's acceptable for Israel.

When Israel sees an oppertunity to push Arafat aside the chance is big that majority of the palestinian people will choose the side of the leaders from the radical palestinian militias or even the palestinian terror movements, who probably will be unacceptable for Israeli standards.

Certain is however that these militias and movements will never agree with peace process dictated by Sharon. In that case a quick halt to all the violence won't be an option, not to speak of a possible recovery of the peace process.

Disclaimer

This post solely embraces the opinion of the writer and is not based on knowledge of all facts. It is also biased by my view on the events in the middle-east.

[RedRogue 0]

Hmm, big topic with alot of different views. And a sensitive one at that for some forum members. But not necessarily a bad topic. It being 5am here and I'm very sleepy I'll edit my take in tommorrow/later today. But if you want a view from someone that is actually living this issue I'd look to the Avon Lady. If I'm not mistaken Israel is where she hails from and from what I've seen she has a very well balanced impartiality in her discussions.

Hmm thing I could bill CM for Sleep deprevation treatments caused from playing OFP till the wee hours.

[el Gringo Loco 1]

I welcome everyone's serious opinion on this topic, hopefully it'll spark a nice debate.

[nordin dk 0]

It seems like the younger leaders of the PLO have little respect for Arafat. They consider him to pro-American and to easy to give in to the Israeli. That's the impression you get, and I'm quite sure there must be a lot of internal struggle in a fractionalized organisation like the PLO.

It seems, from a neutral point of view, like the western leaders are biased towards the Israeli. Especially the US govt. Perhaps this is not true, and I know that all reports coming through he media have been carefully selected. I just feel that we are seldom given a chance to see the conflict from the Palestinian side.

It would be very interesting to hear from someone who is living in the area. If we can keep the war-cries to a minimum.

[Pete 1]

agreed....altough i think that the news i read are somewhat more against israel now, israel is fast loosing its popularity and sharon is being critized not only by us, but also from people in his own party...

in my opinion sharon is destroying every hope for peace on purpose, that cant really be said about arafat...a 7 day "no violence" demand...totally impossible, specially when israelis destroy pretty much all arafat had to possibly control the nation..the police stations and such.......they more or less press the situation to be what it is now....they seem to try to make it explode.

in my opinion...sharon and arafat should both be removed of power and replaced with people who desires peace.

but as for now...arafat is needed in power and as long he is restricted as he is nothing will change to the better...

oh..about a impartial view...noone is the one with the most impartial view, he was in israel (not anymore i think) and i very much liked his posts...none of the rest of us can say that we are unbiased or neutral.

[nordin dk 0]

I like to think of myself as neutral, but I have ben colored by whatever information gets through the media, as is the case with most people watching a war from another country.

On another note, It seems like a bad idea for the Israeli to undermine Arafat's authority. He probably has little control IRL over the more violent chapters of the PLO anyway.

[el Gringo Loco 1]

I think that replacing arafat and sharon altogether will also not work as long as there are factions left in palestine which are not interested in peace and see israel mainly as a devil nation. They still think that the whole of israel belongs to them as they say it was taken away from them in the first place.

Remember under Rabin when the peace talks gained some momentum, it is either the radical palestinians or the radical jews who aren't pleased by peace talks. Both sides doesn't seem to realise that negotiating peace is a process of "you win some and you lose some".

After there was a good chance of peace in the middle east the radical jews and terrorist palestinians assured that it came quickly to an end. So for any peace to be succesful you have to eliminate the radical factions on both sides, because none of them are interested in peace. The common people of israel and palestine are as always the victims.

[nordin dk 0]

As in any war...

[Placebo 29]

I guess I'm completely split on this issue, on the one hand I firmly believe that Israel have the right to do whatever it takes to stop these evil scum from murdering their civilians, on the other hand totally undermining Arafat as they have been doing only plays into the hands of the terrorists, what's the solution? If I knew I wouldn't be a lowly forum moderator now would I

[el Gringo Loco 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I guess I'm completely split on this issue, on the one hand I firmly believe that Israel have the right to do whatever it takes to stop these evil scum from murdering their civilians, on the other hand totally undermining Arafat as they have been doing only plays into the hands of the terrorists, what's the solution? If I knew I wouldn't be a lowly forum moderator now would I <span id='postcolor'>

None of us have an answer at the ready. But it is nice to see the different thoughts people have on this subject or whatever subject. Even as a moderator you surely must have a meaning on this just as on "your" royals

[KingBeast 0]

You know im not sure how this issue stands with most of us brits, though I myself believe both sides to be almost as bad as eachother.

Oh yeah there was a documentary on the BBC or ITC a couple of weeks ago where a reporter stayed with palestinians and filmed what was going on, and it made me at least feel a great deal of Empathy for the palis. You could see it really touched the reporter too. Must be pretty scary when you see Gunships and aircraft flying towards your land and you full well know theres going to be fireworks.

And yes i know it must be just as bad being afraid of Hamas suicide bombers in Israel, but I guess i feel more sorry for the palis, what with them being the totally unsupported underdogs and having their homes razed to the ground.

[Placebo 29]

Interesting, if I were to pick sides with anyone I would take the Israeli's side, people have the right to go to a Barmitzvah without some evil cunt turning up with grenades and an assault rifle, people have the right to have a meal with friends without some evil fucker turning up with a bomb down their Y-fronts.....

Israeli politicians are by no means acting in the right way, but would Israel keep going into Palestine if the terrorist stopped murdering innocent Israelis?

[KingBeast 0]

Well the suicide bombers etc arent necessarily Arafats henchmen (thoguh he could do more t odiscourage them), so if one crazy guy goes and blows up a wedding because he feels that is his purpose in life, is it really morally correct to drop a couple of bombs on a pali government building and then bulldoze the innocent palestinians homes as "retaliation" ?

**edit

For example, if an extremist french terrorist organisation bobmed a carnival or something in England, would it be justifiable to go and destroy the homes and infrastructure of some of the innocent frenchies?? (hmm debatable

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Arafat is in a very difficult situation. There is an old saying that characterises it very well:

The more you use of your power, the more you loose it!

Arafat has to be careful, he cannot overbend his authority, this would cause his political death (e.g by pressuring palestine terrorist organisations). Unfortunately is this exactly what the Israeli government wants. A different leader than Arafat, probably a more extreme one, would push more global sympathy to the Israeli side, and encourage them to take a "great militay step" into the palestine territory. Worldwide protest would then be less than if a Palestine under Arafats administration would be attacked.

(I know a German should shut up, but I feel somehow more sympathy for the palestine people, even though they are terribly stupid in expressing their political wants)

[Placebo 29]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ Feb. 10 2002,15:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">is it really morally correct to drop a couple of bombs on a pali government building and then bulldoze the innocent palestinians homes as "retaliation" ?<span id='postcolor'>

Perhaps if you were hiding inside them

Clearly two wrongs do not make a right, but I will never have any sympathy for terrorists, nor a society that does nothing to stop terrorism and in fact publically encourages it.

What are the Israelis supposed to do? Pack their bags and head off to council estates in Glasgow?

As far as I'm concerned Israel are just acting to try to protect their people, unless I hear otherwise I believe them when they say they enter a certain part of Palestine because they have strong suspicions that terrorists are there, if Arafat cannot control his people then somebody has to. These "people" who commit these atrocities aren't rational, normal people, there is absolutely no proof that they would stop doing what they are doing if Israel stopped entering Palestine, I've seen interviews with some of them who say they will not stop their actions until 1. Every Israeli has left Israel, or 2. Every Israeli is dead.

[Dr Bibber 0]

"Perhaps if you were hiding inside them

Clearly two wrongs do not make a right, but I will never have any sympathy for terrorists, nor a society that does nothing to stop terrorism and in fact publically encourages it.

What are the Israelis supposed to do? Pack their bags and head off to council estates in Glasgow?

As far as I'm concerned Israel are just acting to try to protect their people, unless I hear otherwise I believe them when they say they enter a certain part of Palestine because they have strong suspicions that terrorists are there, if Arafat cannot control his people then somebody has to. These "people" who commit these atrocities aren't rational, normal people, there is absolutely no proof that they would stop doing what they are doing if Israel stopped entering Palestine, I've seen interviews with some of them who say they will not stop their actions until 1. Every Israeli has left Israel, or 2. Every Israeli is dead. "

No offence intended.

I'm getting really sick when Sharon calls anyone a terrorist like his big lies and his right-wing-propaganda stories.

For over half a century, Muslims in Palestine have been slaughtered and assaulted and robbed of their honor and of their property. Their houses have been blasted, their crops destroyed.

Not to mention killing childeren(who have stones) sending murder squads into two Palestinian refugee camps, Sabra and Chatila. With Israeli tanks and troops closely surrounding the camps to prevent any of the Palestinians from escaping, the murder squads machine-gunned, bayoneted Palestinians.

including hundreds of elderly and little children, with their throats cut or disemboweled. Uncounted numbers of women and girls were also raped before they were slaughtered.

And cutting open pregnant women's wombs and butchered the babies in front of them.

And yet they ask theirselves: why do they hate us, why do they want to kill us?

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For over half a century, Muslims in Palestine have been slaughtered and assaulted and robbed of their honor and of their property. Their houses have been blasted, their crops destroyed<span id='postcolor'>

Well, Do you know what japan did to the koreans,chinese ? What about what the germans did to the jews ? Soo muslims should blow up israel because of what they did in the past ? If you believe that , i guess you still think we should bomb japan and germany,or any other enemy that did wrongs to people.

Arafat can't control his people and his people blows up civilians.Israels blows up police stations,see the differents,also they do raze homes,which is wrong.They shouldn't do that because it justs give them people more of a reason.

[Placebo 29]

I almost appreciate what you're saying, but that was then, this is now, because a government did a bad thing in the past doesn't give anyone the right to carry on murdering people in this day and age, hell if everyone played by those rules there would be countries lining up to get revenge on England for some of the stuff we've done in the past.

[Placebo 29]

Well put Foxer

[Dr Bibber 0]

"Well, Do you know what japan did to the koreans,chinese ? What about what the germans did to the jews ? Soo muslims should blow up israel because of what they did in the past ? If you believe that , i guess you still think we should bomb japan and germany,or any other enemy that did wrongs to people.

I'd have to say your last comment made no sense.

I have never said that war was a good thing.

"Arafat can't control his people and his people blows up civilians.Israels blows up police stations,see the differents,also they do raze homes,which is wrong.They shouldn't do that because it justs give them people more of a reason"

What do you mean with "his" people?

Hamas.....Hezbollah(Arafat has won a noble prize for peace in 1994 and does not support terrorists)

And isn't blowing up police stations and goverment buildings the same as targeting civilians?

Aren't cops other workers civilians?

"Arafat can't control his people"

That man can barely stand on his feet if thats what you mean.

I find shooting 7 year old kids alot more worse and crude then suicide bombings by terrorists(wich have nothing to do with civilians)

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I find shooting 7 year old kids alot more worse and crude then suicide bombings by terrorists(wich have nothing to do with civilians) <span id='postcolor'>

That's also wrong.But i bet there is people with guns firing behind the kids throwing rocks.

This is why the war has been going on for soo long though,they both do wrongs and everyone trys to show who the evil one is.

[Dr Bibber 0]

"they both do wrongs and everyone trys to show who the evil one is. "

Exactly, thanks for replying to my posts.

It's late here Gnight all

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Nice, we are getting into the "generalisation" mood again!

First of all the suicide-bombings are NOT initiated by the palestine people but by terrorist organisations. Secondly Sharon does not only attack locations in Palestine but also cuts of the palestine people from the "feeding" roads. Barely any Palestine person now has the opportunity to work for his living (since most were employed as cheap labour in Israel, e.g. constructors or mechants etc).

On the other hand it has to be clearly said that the last palestine weapon-transport on a ship that was caught by the Israeli was commanded by a admiral from Arafats delegation. There are many hidden things going on.

It just made me smile when one week ago the EU decided not to go hand in hand with the US blaming Palestine for recent situation, that day the politicians of the EU clearly stated: we also see a large amount of guilt on the Israeli side. Sharons answer: It is no surprise that this answer comes from Europe where the anti-semitic movement (racism against jews)  is growing again. Yeah right Sharon.

Didnt you know, the Germans secretly won the war and we now have an SS-government in every city, with an SA Headquarter in Brussels and a great emperor in Rome.

Sometimes it pisses me off that this is the only answer you get when you start discussing with someone from Isreal (especially if you are German).

[KingBeast 0]

Again I dont understand how bombing a police station or an airport "in retaliation" is going to help those who were killed by terrorists, or how this retaliation is going to stop future terror attacks.

Workers in airports and polcie stations are civilians, the Israeli government should not target them for revenge.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ Feb. 11 2002,00:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again I dont understand how bombing a police station or an airport "in retaliation" is going to help those who were killed by terrorists, or how this retaliation is going to stop future terror attacks.

Workers in airports and polcie stations are civilians, the Israeli government should not target them for revenge.<span id='postcolor'>

The mossad is probably the best Secret-Service in the world. I think they pretty well know what they target. However I do also think that they dont waste a second thought on wheter an attack may cause civilian casualties or not.