The Middle East part 2

[Bernadotte 0]

what the hell Bernadotte?    That looks like NRA bullshit.

I find it interesting that American males are killing themselves (for whatever reason) at a 20 times higher rate than Palestinians are becoming suicide bombers.

I find it interesting that US Servicemen in Iraq are killing themselves (for whatever reason) at a 17 times higher rate than Palestinians are becoming suicide bombers.

I find it interesting that Israeli males are killing themselves (for whatever reason) at an 11 times higher rate than Palestinians are becoming suicide bombers.

You don't have to see the significance in any of these numbers, but you don't have to be a troll either.  

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

But a suicide bomber is not someone whos applications had been neglected by companies a bit too often. A suicide bomber is a well fed, brainwashed machine!

And why "brainwashed"? Perhaps because of non-education, no-way-out-PoV, tanks rushing in?

I didnt state the opposite!

[Tex -USMC- 0]

@ Mar. 24 2004,08:23)]...I'd like to formally give the late Ahmed Yassin his requisite 'mad props' for being able to avoid getting whacked for this long- while being a paraplegic, no less.

Why are you so impressed?  You seem convinced that Israel was actually trying:

Quote[/b] ]On September 6, 2003, an Israeli Air Force (IAF) F-16 dropped a quarter-ton bomb on a building in Gaza City, the Gaza Strip. Yassin was in the building at the time and was lightly wounded by the assassination attempt. Israeli officials would later confirm that Yassin was a target of the attack.

...Yassin made no attempt to guard himself from further assassination attempts or hide his location. Journalists sometimes visited his Gaza address, and Yassin maintained a consistent routine of being wheeled every morning to a nearby mosque.  [Sheikh Ahmed Yassin]

@ Mar. 24 2004,08:23)]I think the number of attempted Mossad assassinations on this guy was at about 5, wasn't it?

No.

@ Mar. 24 2004,08:23)]Asshole.

Yes.  And you can certainly feel good believing that at least a couple of the 7 innocent bystanders killed (plus however many others where killed on 6 Sept) were probably assholes too, right?

Repeat this with me, Bernadotte: irony and sardonicism. You know that I know better than to come in here and actually argue with you about something  

edit: except that I'm sure there have been other attempts on his life. Why do the words Palestinian rally, Mossad agents, and poison keep popping up in my head? Anyhow, I'll have to research it when I get home, but right now I gotta go.

[shinRaiden 0]

Strictly tactically, all politics aside, why are tanks going in? The operations involved going up against heavier weaponry than ordinary infantry can return or repel.

I could spin Bernadotte's numbers by saying that perhaps the palestinians are being more hesitent about the practicality or blowing themselves up, or they're starting to run out of suckers, or their money's running out.

By the way, is Mossad actually behind the operations, or is it the Shin Bet? If it's Mossad instead, is this seperation politically or practically motivated? Also, who was the PM who let Yassin out? That might explain a few things as well.

[joltan 0]

Israeli army arrests 'boy bomber'

How sick do you have to be to send a handicapped kid (down syndrom) to do your dirty work?

Quote[/b] ]Israeli soldiers manning the Hawara checkpoint became suspicious after the boy approached them, the Associated Press news agency reported.

The soldiers ordered him to stop at gunpoint, then told him to take off his jacket and cut off the bomb strapped to his chest.

He was then forced to strip off the rest of his clothing before being arrested by the soldiers. The bomb was destroyed by Israeli army sappers.

The boy, identified by family members as Hussam Abdo, is now being questioned by security forces.

It is not clear what militant group, if any, was involved in the incident.

His family told AP that the youth suffered from developmental problems.

"He doesn't know anything and he has intelligence of a 12-year-old," his brother said.

[shinRaiden 0]

Quote[/b] ]"Blowing myself up is the only chance I've got to have sex with 72 virgins in the Garden of Eden," Abdu said his handlers had told him.

Quote[/b] ]Hosni Abdu said he was furious with whomever persuaded his brother to become a suicide bomber. "The ones who sent him are stupid, because the army will give him two slaps and he will tell them who sent him," he said.

Quote[/b] ]Abdu's family said the teenager was not affiliated with any group, but went to rallies and identified with whichever group had carried out the latest attack.

Jpost copy

Haaretz copy

[red oct 2]

Israeli army arrests 'boy bomber'

How sick do you have to be to send a handicapped kid (down syndrom) to do your dirty work?  

Quote[/b] ]Israeli soldiers manning the Hawara checkpoint became suspicious after the boy approached them, the Associated Press news agency reported.

The soldiers ordered him to stop at gunpoint, then told him to take off his jacket and cut off the bomb strapped to his chest.

He was then forced to strip off the rest of his clothing before being arrested by the soldiers. The bomb was destroyed by Israeli army sappers.

The boy, identified by family members as Hussam Abdo, is now being questioned by security forces.

It is not clear what militant group, if any, was involved in the incident.

His family told AP that the youth suffered from developmental problems.

"He doesn't know anything and he has intelligence of a 12-year-old," his brother said.

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,340852,00.jpghttp://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,340855,00.jpg

this isn't the first time they manipulated children into attempting a suicide attack, the IDF caught another kid 11 years old, and before that another who tried to sneak a fertilizer bomb

[shinRaiden 0]

They said it, not me...

Quote[/b] ]The Bible says that when Moses first encountered God, He appeared in the form of a burning bush. Moses was commanded by God to be careful lest he tread on that bush. I have no problem with the president's critics attacking his economic, environmental, or other such policies. Indeed, like any mortal, he is far from perfect as are some of his policies. But the part of his leadership that burns with virtue and blazes with uprightness, that protects the innocent and punishes the wicked, assails tyranny and upholds democracy, and puts the fear of God into cold-hearted killers – at least that part of him, let his critics refrain from trampling.

jpocst.com

[Tex -USMC- 0]

what the hell Bernadotte?    That looks like NRA bullshit.

I find it interesting that American males are killing themselves (for whatever reason) at a 20 times higher rate than Palestinians are becoming suicide bombers.

I find it interesting that US Servicemen in Iraq are killing themselves (for whatever reason) at a 17 times higher rate than Palestinians are becoming suicide bombers.

I find it interesting that Israeli males are killing themselves (for whatever reason) at an 11 times higher rate than Palestinians are becoming suicide bombers.

You don't have to see the significance in any of these numbers, but you don't have to be a troll either.  

I think the issue isn't that they're committing suicide, but that they're turning it into a group activity.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

They said it, not me...

Quote[/b] ]The Bible says that when Moses first encountered God, He appeared in the form of a burning bush. Moses was commanded by God to be careful lest he tread on that bush. I have no problem with the president's critics attacking his economic, environmental, or other such policies. Indeed, like any mortal, he is far from perfect as are some of his policies. But the part of his leadership that burns with virtue and blazes with uprightness, that protects the innocent and punishes the wicked, assails tyranny and upholds democracy, and puts the fear of God into cold-hearted killers – at least that part of him, let his critics refrain from trampling.

jpocst.com

Lo, and I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison or destroy my brothers, and you will know my name is the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

These kind of nutballs are the guys who make living in the Bible Belt worthwhile.

[shinRaiden 0]

I know it's a bad thing to make jokes about this but, that's funny Tex. Thanks.

Quote[/b] ]According to defense establishment figures, since the beginning of the intifada, there have been 29 Palestinians under the age of 18 who carried out suicide attacks, and 22 others under 18 who carried out "sacrificial attacks" - in which they opened fire and were killed - in the territories. Forty others under 18 were arrested on suspicion of intending to carry out attacks.

haaretzdaily

[joltan 0]

this isn't the first time they manipulated children into attempting a suicide attack, the IDF caught another kid 11 years old, and before that another who tried to sneak a fertilizer bomb

Afaik that 11-year old was only supposed to smuggle the explosives through the controls, not to blow himself up. Never heard about the other case.

[Bernadotte 0]

@ Mar. 25 2004,05:10)]I think the issue isn't that they're committing suicide, but that they're turning it into a group activity.

Actually, I looked into the suicide rate statistics (previous page) in response to der bastler posting that "the suicide bombers don't see a future (uneducated, unemployed, caught in some kind of ghetto), so they are easy to recruit."  The suggestion was that Palestinians were becoming suicide bombers largely for the same reasons that people normally commit suicide and not necessarily out of religious or political zeal.  In fact, I read about some researchers who determined that the majority of suicide bombers were already so troubled that they would probably have killed themselves anyway.

So I've tried to use the suicide rate stats to put this hypothesis into some perspective.  And, indeed, there is no shortage of troubled candidates.  In fact, it's safe to conclude that 90 - 95% of Palestinians committing suicide appear to be doing so without trying to take any Israelis with them.  I find that interesting.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]Blowing myself up is the only chance I've got to have sex with 72 virgins in the Garden of Eden

Okay he has got point there ;)

So who of the two Hamas candidates is more dangerous? Abdel Asis Rantisi or Chalid Masal? Rantisi wants to export teror beyond palestines borders, Maschal on the other hand wants to chase down israeli politicians.

Sorry but to me those 2 have pies in the sky. Big Jihad announcement but little know how how to get there.

[Bernadotte 0]

Rantisi wants to export teror beyond palestines borders, Maschal on the other hand wants to chase down israeli politicians.

Links please!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,292274,00.html

Wont help ya  a lot  

[shinRaiden 0]

Ok, if we say that 20 out of 100,000 guys in the US jisatsu themselves yearly,

Quote[/b] ]According to the 2000 census, the United States was a nation of 281,421,906

and use this same ~280 million, and assume that women never commit suicide, that makes for 28000 suicides a year. Therefore, you're 50x more likely to commit suicide in the US than die of a combat or non-combat injury in Iraq, and ~11-22x more likely to commit suicide in 2001 than to have died on 9/11. Therefore, let's go to Iraq, as it's safer there.

[denoir 0]

Ok, if we say that 20 out of 100,000 guys in the US jisatsu themselves yearly,

Quote[/b] ]According to the 2000 census, the United States was a nation of 281,421,906

and use this same ~280 million, and assume that women never commit suicide, that makes for 28000 suicides a year. Therefore, you're 50x more likely to commit suicide in the US than die of a combat or non-combat injury in Iraq, and ~11-22x more likely to commit suicide in 2001 than to have died on 9/11. Therefore, let's go to Iraq, as it's safer there.

Over 40,000 people die yearly in traffic accidents, but it's a pointless comparison. As are the ones you and Bernadotte are making as well.

First you shinRaiden. It won't help to move to Iraq as the suicide rate is quite high there. Second, I don't know how you did your calculation. There are less than 200,000 troops in Iraq. There have been > 500 casualties = 250 dead/ 100,000, which is more than ten times as much than your domestic suicide rate.

Ok, now Bernadotte: The point is not how many commit suicide, but how many they take along with them. The issue is that they don't just blow their brains out, but they blow up a bus full of civillians. And while in absolute numbers it's probably not significant, it is to the human psyche.

For instance in the US at the time of the Washington sniper's rampage there were actually fewer homicides in Washington DC. People were scared and stayed indoors and hence less homicides. Did they give the sniper a medal for saving lives? Sure as hell not. Absolute numbers has nothing to do with it, it's the perception of it that matters. And blowing up a bussload of women, children, elderly etc is a very nasty thing, even if it is not done on a regular basis.

[shinRaiden 0]

I was basing my numbers off the population at large. Your logic presumes that the casulty rate is attition of percentage, rather than the results of a consistent rate of incidents. That also assumes that the rate of incidents would increase with additional people in-theater. In case you didn't catch it, I was being somewhat facetious about the doom and gloom and boom. Shifting sands in shifting winds.

[Bernadotte 0]

Ok, now Bernadotte: The point is not how many commit suicide, but how many they take along with them. The issue is that they don't just blow their brains out, but they blow up a bus full of civillians. And while in absolute numbers it's probably not significant, it is to the human psyche.

Denoir, please try demonstrating that you understand the point I've been trying to make before trying to convince me of what the point is not.  It might help if you read this:

I looked into the suicide rate statistics (previous page) in response to der bastler posting that "the suicide bombers don't see a future (uneducated, unemployed, caught in some kind of ghetto), so they are easy to recruit."  The suggestion was that Palestinians were becoming suicide bombers largely for the same reasons that people normally commit suicide and not necessarily out of religious or political zeal.  In fact, I read about some researchers who determined that the majority of suicide bombers were already so troubled that they would probably have killed themselves anyway.

So I've tried to use the suicide rate stats to put this hypothesis into some perspective.  And, indeed, there is no shortage of troubled candidates.  In fact, it's safe to conclude that 90 - 95% of Palestinians committing suicide appear to be doing so without trying to take any Israelis with them.  I find that interesting.

Otherwise, you are simply being Don Quixote - attacking opinions that other members haven't even voiced.

[Balschoiw 0]

Nothing new when it comes to resolutions about Israel:

US vetoes Israeli condemnation

Quote[/b] ]New York - The United States on Thursday vetoed a resolution condemning Israel's killing of Palestinian militant leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin at an unusually bitter meeting of the UN Security Council.

Israel traded angry barbs with the Palestinians and with council member Spain, bringing up this month's terror bombings on Madrid trains to denounce Spain's support of the resolution.

Three days of intense negotiations failed to win the support of the United States, which spiked the resolution because it made no mention of Yassin's Hamas militant group, responsible for scores of deadly attacks on Israel.

The vote was 11 in favour and the United States against. Three nations - Britain, Germany and Romania - abstained.

The measure was sponsored by lone Arab member Algeria, which said the council was sending the "wrong message" to the world.

The USA shouldn´t be surprised if they have some more terrorist attacks in the nearest future.

Quote[/b] ]The US veto comes with Muslim rage at high pitch over the killing and could further complicate US plans in Iraq.

But ambassador John Negroponte of the United States said the "one-sided, unbalanced" resolution would not contribute to peace.

"The United States is deeply troubled by the killing of Sheikh Yassin. Israel's action has escalated tensions in Gaza and the region, and could set back our efforts to resume progress toward peace," he said.

"But events must be considered in their context."

Yeah yeah, business as usual.

[denoir 0]

Otherwise, you are simply being Don Quixote - attacking opinions that other members haven't even voiced.

Ah, legitimate attacks are sooo 90's. Throw out those Bon Jovi albums and get in synch with the new millenium! Unjustified pre-emption is what is in fashion today.  

No but seriously, I didn't see your original post

[miles teg 1]

Ok, now Bernadotte: The point is not how many commit suicide, but how many they take along with them. The issue is that they don't just blow their brains out, but they blow up a bus full of civillians. And while in absolute numbers it's probably not significant, it is to the human psyche.

Denoir, please try demonstrating that you understand the point I've been trying to make before trying to convince me of what the point is not.  It might help if you read this:

I looked into the suicide rate statistics (previous page) in response to der bastler posting that "the suicide bombers don't see a future (uneducated, unemployed, caught in some kind of ghetto), so they are easy to recruit."  The suggestion was that Palestinians were becoming suicide bombers largely for the same reasons that people normally commit suicide and not necessarily out of religious or political zeal.  In fact, I read about some researchers who determined that the majority of suicide bombers were already so troubled that they would probably have killed themselves anyway.

So I've tried to use the suicide rate stats to put this hypothesis into some perspective.  And, indeed, there is no shortage of troubled candidates.  In fact, it's safe to conclude that 90 - 95% of Palestinians committing suicide appear to be doing so without trying to take any Israelis with them.  I find that interesting.

Otherwise, you are simply being Don Quixote - attacking opinions that other members haven't even voiced.

Bernadotte, what is the manner in which 90-95% of Palistinian sucides are offing themselves and where did you get that information from?

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[shinRaiden 0]

Interesting that the Deutschesland sat it out, I wonder what Bush and Schoeder said in their recent chat... any clues?

[Baphomet 0]

Hm... well this might be a somewhat non-sequitir interjection given the current subject on the origins of suicide bombers. However I think any chance at all of peace or amicable co-existence between the Palestinians and the Israelis is utterly shot to hell now.

I think it was in very poor taste for Sharon to support the blowing up of a wheelchair ridden man, regardless of his position politically. As a nation I think Israel despite them being embroiled in such a conflict should be held to higher standards militarily than terrorist cels such as Hamas. They're no better than they are, flying about in their gunships blasting away killing the odd civilian here and there, especially at crippled old men. I'm pretty sure they could have figured out a different way of capturing/dealing with him. In a way that would be more dignified for the reputation of the country. The only difference between terror and war is a moral one in my opinion, and they've crossed it with this act. Perhaps others, but I'm not terribly aware of Israel's policies in this conflict. I did hear rumors about Israeli soldiers forcefully delegating Palestinians to conduct "on-the-spot" inspections of suspected bomb sites however.

As far as I'm concerned, Israel shit the bed on this one.

Big time!