The Middle East part 2

[shinRaiden 0]

Just a clarification, I'm not knocking Islam the religion in my previous post. I'm just saying that I think various imams such as the Wahabi's are hijacking the religion for their own personal gain, and that those who do not hold to those beliefs and believe that they are in fact heretical need to speak up, and louder than those agitating for war, destruction, and desolation.

[Acecombat 0]

In fact, the first military action was to reclaim aggrieved property in Mecca.

It was a result of over eager Makkan pagans to get a pre-emptive strike on the muslims (just like prsent day Iraq) they had a caravan coming from Syria under the leadership of Aby Sufyan which they 'made up' was in danger of being looted by th muslims , yeah right.

So they sent 1000 armed men in its defence all armed with the latest weapons of their time and armor and stuff , muslims were only 313 (numbr include young boys too) they went out to the Ground of Badr to get a peace deal as Muhammed wanted he ALWAYS first offered dialog war was the last OPTION for him. Wll those retarded pagans didnt wanted peace they wanted to annihilate us and got owned pretty bad by 313 poorly equipped men

As you pointed out correctly the true MUSLIM caliphate ended with the deaths of Usman and Ali after that it was a political struggle betwen 2 families Hasimites and Abbasid for power which also resulted in SHia'ism. It also halted muslim expansion in to europe as they got divided otherwise if we'd hav wnt in probably the whole of europe might have been muslim

After all, what right do they have to question the fallibility of their divinely appointed leaders?

Are you saying that Khomenie is divinely appointd like Mullah Omar?

Well shit no they arent , theyre just power hungry goons in my opinion.

That's what we're asking for I guess, basicly that you're on a runaway train and help is needed in the cab immediately.

INDEED

Thats whats seriously needed here.

[Acecombat 0]

Just a clarification, I'm not knocking Islam the religion in my previous post. I'm just saying that I think various imams such as the Wahabi's are hijacking the religion for their own personal gain, and that those who do not hold to those beliefs and believe that they are in fact heretical need to speak up, and louder than those agitating for war, destruction, and desolation.

Actually shin thats whre the catch is most of the time these peopl get zilch out of this , theyre just too retardedly brought up under some pre-tense that to win or Islams prevalence is their destiny somehow *talk about lose screws*

People need to DROP this ideology right now theres no such thing as this , theres no way this is meant to be unless people on their own part show exemplified behaviour and courtesy which might impress others but forcing some retarded ideology down every muslims brain that THEY ARE RIGHT or we ARE THE BETTER PEOPLE or WE WILL WIN is wrong.

[Bernadotte 0]

...ISLAM is the FASTEST growing religion on the planet EVEN NOW.

And I suspect that Islamophobia is the fastest growing neurosis on the planet, too.  

The owner/admin/head-mod of one of the larger US-based pro-Israel forums was recently asked, "...do you think that Arabs are murderers? Generally?"

He answered, "I think that most Arabs and Muslims in general do support murder, especially when it is the murder of Jews, Christians and Hindus."

The site describes itself as follows:

Quote[/b] ]...our Open Forums have quickly become one of the Internet's premier destinations for members of the press, leaders of industry, government officials, and members of academia from more than 200 countries around the world.

[theavonlady 2]

...ISLAM is the FASTEST growing religion on the planet EVEN NOW.

And I suspect that Islamophobia is the fastest growing neurosis on the planet, too.  

neurosis

n : a mental or personality disturbance not attributable to any known neurological or organic dysfunction

Maybe it's inflicted by Moslem themselves:

Annual Hajj Pilgrimage Gathers Momentum

Quote[/b] ]In Mecca, the Grand Mosque, Islam's holiest site, overflowed with the faithful, who heard a sermon by Sheik Saleh al-Taleb. He later led them in prayer.

More than 460,000 crammed inside and tens of thousands more prayed in the streets, causing shops to close and outdoor vendors to clear the sidewalks of their goods.

"Oh God, give victory to the mujahedeen everywhere, give them victory in Palestine. Oh God, make the Muslims triumphant and destroy their enemies and make this country and other Muslim countries safe. Oh God, inflict your wrath on the criminal Zionists," Sheik al-Taleb said.

Rajab al-Arabi, one of nearly 2 million Muslims in this Arab nation for the hajj, said he had expected a more outspoken sermon.

"In Belgium, we have Egyptian and Moroccan clerics who freely criticize the hardships of Muslims, which includes the injustice that has befallen on Iraq (news - web sites) and the occupation it is under," said al-Arabi, a Belgian pilgrim of Tunisian origin.

Quote[/b] ]The owner/admin/head-mod of one of the larger US-based pro-Israel forums was recently asked, "...do you think that Arabs are murderers? Generally?"

He answered, "I think that most Arabs and Muslims in general do support murder, especially when it is the murder of Jews, Christians and Hindus."

The site describes itself as follows:

...our Open Forums have quickly become one of the Internet's premier destinations for members of the press, leaders of industry, government officials, and members of academia from more than 200 countries around the world.

Most? A lot? Tons? Why don't you start a survey.

Sounds like IsraelForum.com

Is that it? Is it another forum? Any reason why you can't share a link with the rest of us?

BTW, for this one forum that expresses what you consider Islamophobia, can you tell us please if you find any Arab or Moslem forums out there that express vehement anti-Israel, anti-Jewish and anti-Western hate? Surely you can find one. And you so objective. I know we can count on you.

[Bernadotte 0]

Sounds like IsraelForum.com

Is that it? Is it another forum? Any reason why you can't share a link with the rest of us?

Section 2 §6

[theavonlady 2]

The owner/admin/head-mod of one of the larger US-based pro-Israel forums was recently asked, "...do you think that Arabs are murderers? Generally?"

He answered, "I think that most Arabs and Muslims in general do support murder, especially when it is the murder of Jews, Christians and Hindus."

The site describes itself as follows:

Quote[/b] ]...our Open Forums have quickly become one of the Internet's premier destinations for members of the press, leaders of industry, government officials, and members of academia from more than 200 countries around the world.

Most? A lot? Tons? Why don't you start a survey.

Sounds like IsraelForum.com

Is that it? Is it another forum? Any reason why you can't share a link with the rest of us?

Never mind. Found it, indeed in IsraelForum.com.

Sorry if this was meant to be kept secret.

Here's the full post:

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Originally posted by peacelover:

I would also like everyone to answer me one question - do you think that Arabs are murderers? Generally?

I think that most Arabs and Muslims in general do support murder, especially when it is the murder of Jews, Christians and Hindus. In fact, this is also the prevalent view of most Muslims.

Today, for example, a Muslim woman set off a bomb that murdered 4 Israelis. Yesterday, another Muslim shot and murdered an Israeli man who was simply driving in his car on his way home. The dead man was the father of five.

And on the same day, other Muslims mass-murdered Hindus in Kashmir and Christians in Iraq.

Are you going to tell me that most Arabs don't support these murders? Of course they do.

The excuses of the Arabs span anything imaginable, from "occupation" to "Jihad." But in the end, these are just excuses for a primitive culture that values and supports murder, violence, racism, religious hatred, sexism, and public corruption.

And, as we know, the majority of Arabs do nothing to change their murderous culture, which is why I believe that they are collectively guilty of sharing the same values as their terrorist brothers.

So, I think that Kilroy-Silk was basically correct in his comments, although he made the mistake of underestimating the influence of the Arabs and their Leftist supporters.

And, if for argument's sake, we conclude that his dismissal was justified, when exactly will those who are publicly anti-Israel and anti-Semitic be dismissed from their jobs? After all, if that were to happen, the offices of the BBC and the Guardian would empty out immediately.

But we all know that, as Mediocrates said, anti-Semitism has become acceptable, and even encouraged in Europe. But any other form of criticism of any nationality or ethnic group is taboo.

This case just highlights the shameful British hypocrisy.

I found the post on this page. There you can read other very pro-Israel viewpoints that disagree with such general assumptions.

[theavonlady 2]

Sounds like IsraelForum.com

Is that it? Is it another forum? Any reason why you can't share a link with the rest of us?

Section 2 §6

Please ask a moderator to ban me.

[theavonlady 2]

Sounds like IsraelForum.com

Is that it? Is it another forum? Any reason why you can't share a link with the rest of us?

Section 2 §6

Please ask a moderator to ban me.

Actually, you should be penalized. The BIS forum rule you point to states:

§6)Do not start threads relating to discussions on other boards

I didn't start the reference to another forum board. You did.

But I'll be nice and give you some free legal advice. The BIS forum rule refers to starting a "thread" relating to other board's discussions. This thread was already started before hand.

Case dismissed!

[Bernadotte 0]

Sounds like IsraelForum.com

Is that it? Is it another forum? Any reason why you can't share a link with the rest of us?

Section 2 §6

Please ask a moderator to ban me.

No.  

[Bernadotte 0]

But I'll be nice and give you some free legal advice.

Actually I'd prefer if you would offer any opionion on the Benny Morris interview (see previous page) instead of spam/trolling this thread from a safe distance.

[theavonlady 2]

But I'll be nice and give you some free legal advice.

Actually I'd prefer if you would offer any opionion on the Benny Morris interview (see previous page) instead of spam/trolling this thread from a safe distance.

I can choose to reply to what I want to and what I don't. Find yourself another forum slave.

In contrast, when I do bother replying to a post of your, you tend to veer away from the rebuttal, like you're doing just this instant.

[Bernadotte 0]

In contrast, when I do bother replying to a post of your, you tend to veer away from the rebuttal, like you're doing just this instant.

As long as you keep posting thought-provoking tid bits like this one I'll just keep veering.  

[Guest]

I can't believe you managed to unearth our zionist conspiracy.  For all the "supposed" enlightened views us Jews around the world share, you uncovered the dark and hideous truth that we are all bigots who generalize about entire religions...

oh wait, isn't making mass generalizations the point of this comment?

Quote[/b] ]The owner/admin/head-mod of one of the larger US-based pro-Israel forums was recently asked, "...do you think that Arabs are murderers? Generally?"

He answered, "I think that most Arabs and Muslims in general do support murder, especially when it is the murder of Jews, Christians and Hindus."

I'm glad you found someone so eloquent to speak for us - seeing as the supporters of Israel on this forum aren't really honest about how we "really" feel about muslims...

Oh wait, im putting words in your mouth, aren't I? I misinterpreted your post... its clearly an attack on this one particular forum with no relevance to anything outside of it, right?

[Guest]

and on to benny morris, what has he said that hasn't been said a million times before?

Quote[/b] ]What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation Hiram there was a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?

Israel kicked thousands of palestinians out of their homes?  Is that a surprise to you?  Its something i've acknowledged all along...

The palestinians being told to leave by other Arab nations.  Yep, heard this one too.  Israel supporters have claimed this for years.

Quote[/b] ] To my surprise, there were also many cases of rape.

The rape thing, while new to me, and shameful, happened 12 times (the supposed "tip of the iceberg").  Not really staggering figures considering the scope of the conflict.

What is really most interesting to me about Benny morris is his transition from one end of the political spectrum to the other.

oh and on the source of this article, notice this...

Quote[/b] ]That book describes in chilling detail the atrocities of the Nakba.

"The nakba"?  or al nakba Thats arabic for "the catastrophe", used in this light in referrence to a certain day in 1948.  Most israelis refer to this day as Independence day.

The interviewer here (or editor) is certainly relating to a specific group of people, and its not you or me.

[Guest]

And on a relatively humorous note, I saw the made for TV movie "sadat" tonight. Starring louis gosset jr. as anwar sadat. The movie, which obviously takes place in egypt, is filmed in mexico, and all the arabs are played by hispanic actors (with spanish accents to boot!) In addition to "flavoring" his exciting life with numerous B movie subplots, the movie has one of the most ridicoulous "battle scenes" i've ever seen...

Egyptian migs (F5s repainted, sound familiar?) come screaming from the sky towards israeli soldiers who are in the middle of yom kippur prayers. The lookout soldier (wearing a cowboy hat no less) screams "incoming planes!" as the migs prepare their strafing runs. As bullets explode around the makeshift synagouge, the Aron Kodesh (the cabinet which holds the torah scrolls) is blown to pieces by 30mm cannon fire...

Cut to shots of an Israeli "SAM" battery (actually stock footage of a soviet MLRS piece) firing off a salvo of rockets - at the enemy migs! The lead mig (flown by sadats brother of course) bursts into flames. Victory for Israel!

IMDB listing

[Bernadotte 0]

oh wait, isn't making mass generalizations the point of this comment?

No.

But, I can see how someone with a massive chip on their shoulder might make such a misinterpretation.  So perhaps I should explain for the sake of you and others who might think like you.

Apparently, their forum is the "premier destinations for members of the press, leaders of industry, government officials, and members of academia from more than 200 countries around the world."

(I quoted this claim in my message above, but for some reason you chose to delete it when you quoted me.)

Even if their main theme was Chinese cooking, the admin's Islamophobic comment is still reaching a very large audience and that is significant, IMO.  However, if I were a Chinese cook I wouldn't automatically assume that the whole world will regard the admin's comments as representing the views of all Chinese cooks - unless I had a huge chip on my shoulder, that is.

Got it?  

[Guest]

And imams do no worse to crowds of hundreds of thousands? Weekly?

[theavonlady 2]

And imams do no worse to crowds of hundreds of thousands?

How about 2 million? Here's another one:

Top Saudi Cleric Assails Terrorists

A great headline and wondeful news, until you get all the way down to the third paragraph:

Quote[/b] ]"Is it holy war to shed Muslim blood? Is it holy war to shed the blood of non-Muslims given sanctuary in Muslim lands? Is it holy war to destroy the possessions of Muslims?" he <Sheik Abdul Aziz al-Sheik, telling 2 million pilgrims in Mecca> asked.

Notice a "slight" discrepency between the article's title and the paragraph's text above? Let me help you: if you're not a Muslim or under Muslim protection, killing you or destroying your posessions in not terrorism.

And we have the Associated Press to thank in helping us to assuage our baseless Islamaphobia.

[Bernadotte 0]

And imams do no worse to crowds of hundreds of thousands?  Weekly?

No.

1.  I don't think Imams are saying, "I think that most Israelis and Jews in general do support murder, especially when it is the murder of Muslims, Christians and Hindus"

2.  Even if some did their views are not being sought by members of the press, leaders of industry, government officials, and members of academia from more than 200 countries around the world.

3.  And even if they were I simply can't accept an argument supporting the site admin's views on the basis of some Imams having comparable views.

[Guest]

And imams do no worse to crowds of hundreds of thousands?  Weekly?

No.

1.  I don't think Imams are saying, "I think that most Israelis and Jews in general do support murder, especially when it is the murder of Muslims, Christians and Hindus"

2.  Even if some did their views are not being sought by members of the press, leaders of industry, government officials, and members of academia from more than 200 countries around the world.

3.  And even if they were I simply can't accept an argument supporting the site admin's views on the basis of some Imams having comparable views.

1: Ironically, they are saying something worse. That it is ok for Muslims to kill kaffirs (jews christians hindus) in the defense of Dar' el islam.

2: Sadly, yes they are. The arab press at least. And when it comes down to it, politicians reading an internet forum run by a bigot will not strap explosives to their chest or grab a rifle and get on a bus to jerusalem or into Iraq...

3: Who's supporting the site admin's views? I was pointing out your theory on the great "neurosis" is relatively one sided and has its shortcomings.

Two things. First, Im not generalizing here, I am reffering to a large and politically powerful group of religous imams who you can find on pratically every article on www.memri.org

Secondly, they aren't "comparable" views. Not even close. I can find you a rabbi who has comparable views, but he preaches to a congregation of about 20. You met some of them in that slideshow you posted a while back. Thats 2-0. Not 2-0-0-0-0-0-0...

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]if you're not a Muslim or under Muslim protection, killing you or destroying your posessions in not terrorism.

You are saying that as if it would be the truth. The cleric wasnt talking about intrnational matters here, he was addressing muslims, and trying to unite the mass, against all jews (as Avon seems to think about it) ?

Or not? I would suggest AVon to read the whole article before writing thatkind of bullshit. Quote from the article, said by the same cleric:

Quote[/b] ]"Islam forbids all forms of injustice, killing without just cause, treachery ... hijacking of planes, boats and transportation means," he said.

Quote[/b] ]Pilgrim Mustafa al-Shawwaf, a Canadian of Syrian origin, said he agreed that terrorists had tarnished Islam. He criticized Muslim fundamentalists, including the Wahhabis, for practicing an exclusive form of the faith.

[Bernadotte 0]

Edit:  Turms beat me to it.

[Bernadotte 0]

And when it comes down to it, politicians reading an internet forum run by a bigot will not strap explosives to their chest or grab a rifle and get on a bus to jerusalem or into Iraq...

Why should they when it's much easier to send your tax dollars in th form of apaches, hellfire missiles and JDAMs.

[theavonlady 2]

Top Saudi Cleric Assails Terrorists

A great headline and wondeful news, until you get all the way down to the third paragraph:

Quote[/b] ]"Is it holy war to shed Muslim blood? Is it holy war to shed the blood of non-Muslims given sanctuary in Muslim lands? Is it holy war to destroy the possessions of Muslims?" he <Sheik Abdul Aziz al-Sheik, telling 2 million pilgrims in Mecca> asked.

And what was his answer to those questions?  Let me help you:

Quote[/b] ]"Islam forbids all forms of injustice, killing without just cause, treachery ... hijacking of planes, boats and transportation means," he said.

Obviously, you either ignored what the Sheik himself said or you're employed by him.

How do you explain the contradiction between the paragraph you quoted and the 3rd paragraph?

How do you explain the paragraph you quoted, while overlooking the entire theme of the Sheik's sermon, as stated in the same article a few paragraphs before your out-of-context quote:

Quote[/b] ]In speaking of terrorists who killed fellow Muslims, al-Sheik was clearly referring to the Prophet Muhammad's final sermon, delivered on Mount Arafat 14 centuries ago.

It contained the line: "Know that every Muslim is a Muslim's brother, and the Muslims are brethren. Fighting between them should be avoided."

Wake up and smell the coffee, infidel!