The Middle East part 2

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]In fact, the US is required by law to bail out Israel if necessary. According to the 1984 Cranston Amendment the US must pay annual aid to Israel at least equal to the value of interest and principle Israel owes on its loans. In other words, Israel can never go bankrupt.

I didnt knew that for a fact

Such freeloading ...?

[miles teg 1]

Where do these figures come from???

I was referring to trends I'd read about for several years.  But according to this source, 5.3 million out of the 10.0 million people living within Israel's borders in 2002, were Jews.

And on fertility rate, the same source says:

Quote[/b] ]In 2002, the total fertility rate (TFR) in Palestine of 5.9 children per woman was more than twice as high as in Israel (2.9), which is reflected in their respective rates of natural increase (3.5% annually versus 1.5%). The TFR in the Gaza Strip was one of the highest in the world at 6.6 births per woman (2001). Similar trends can be seen within Israel: Jewish women have a TFR of 2.6 compared with 4.7 for Muslim women (2001).

Non-Jews outnumber Jews in Israel?

As I stated, it may already be the case.  However, the statistics might not begin to reflect people having left because of the Intifada until this year.

Even if that were the case, does it really matter?

Yes.  Israel can't really call itself a "Jewish state" if the majority of people living there are not Jewish.

Also US support for Israel is not shrinking under the Bush Administration.

This year's US aid package was cut by a few hundred million dollars because of the security fence construction opposed by Washington.

If their economy sunk significantly, the US would probably bail them out.

In fact, the US is required by law to bail out Israel if necessary.  According to the 1984 Cranston Amendment the US must pay annual aid to Israel at least equal to the value of interest and principle Israel owes on its loans.  In other words, Israel can never go bankrupt.

Hmm... I take it that you're talking about both Israel and the Palestinian territories?   I think reality on the ground suggests that they are not one and the same.  They are divided states.  

Current tactics by both sides insure this to be the case short of one side committing genocide or ethnic cleansing.  

What I am wondering is where you got the information concerning guest workers outbreeding Jews in Israel (excluding the Palistinian territories).  

I just skimmed over the link and didn't see that info so my apologies if I missed it as I need to get started writing a paper.  

According to this source http://www.jewishsf.com/bk030228/us16.shtml

It was part of a planned 0.65% cut in US foreign aid overall and that the Palistinians lost $50million.  I can't vouch for the accuracy of that information but it would be interesting to look into.

I also was not aware of that law, although it does not surprise me as a large number of Christians in America believe that to go against Israel is to go against God, so therefor we must support Israel in all things because they are God's people.    Ain't religion grand?    

Nah but seriously I support Israel's right to exist as much as I support the Palistinians right to some type of homeland.  I would only hope that they one day realize that improvement in their lives economically will only happen when both sides quit killing each other and instead start cooperating economically.  

But right now both sides just hate each other way too much.  That of coarse is not exactly an original observation... just a blunt simple statement of relative truth.  Things need to be done to reduce that level of hatred and to encourage hope.

I still believe that 3rd party intervention or some kind of incredibly bold diplomatic move on the part of  the Israelies is going to solve this conflict peacefully.  

I also believe that pointing fingers ain't going to solve much.  Both sides have plenty of blood on their hands.  Certainly Israel has done some incredibly senseless and brutal things...but so have the Palistinians regardless of the logic or reasoning behind it.  Each side is right in their own minds which is where the problem is.

Someone needs to be the grown up and reach out to his enemy and ask for forgiveness.

If not, then the America should fullfill its role truly of being a neautral moderator and intervene in some decisive manner.

Sadly however I think that if Bush wins the next election, that we will indeed intervene...by supporting Israel to completely drive out the Palistinians from the territories they currently occupy.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]If not, then the America should fullfill its role truly of being a neautral moderator and intervene in some decisive manner.

Now thats something that cant happen when you have laws which support ISRAEL outright without any qeustions asked. Why isnt their such a plan for Palestinians too?

Until america drops its double-handedness in this issue i cant see america as a peace-player in the scenario anywhere.

[Acecombat 0]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/381793.html

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom told the cabinet on Sunday that the Falashmura must be brought over to Israel from Ethiopia as quickly as possible.

The minister told the cabinet that so far, some 300 Falashmura are currently brought over each month from Ethiopia, but Israel wants to increase this to 1,000 a month. Some 14,000 Falashmura are currently living in particular harsh conditions in Ethiopia.

The Falashmura, many of whom were forced to convert to Christianity in the 19th century, now wish to reassert their Jewishness and emigrate to Israel.

About 80,000 Ethiopian Jews already live in Israel, many of them taken there in massive airlifts during times of crisis in Ethiopia over the past 20 years.

The last mass migration of Ethiopian Jews was in 1991, when Israel organized an airlift of 15,000 people who had fled fighting at the end of Ethiopia's civil war.

In February 2003 Ethiopia blocked a plan by Israel to move about 20,000 Falashmura to Israel, arguing that a mass migration was unnecessary when everyone was free to leave Ethiopia in the normal way.

[Bernadotte 0]

Hmm... I take it that you're talking about both Israel and the Palestinian territories?   I think reality on the ground suggests that they are not one and the same.  They are divided states.

No, it remains one state.  Reality on the ground indicates that they are farther from being 2 states than they've ever been.

 

Current tactics by both sides insure this to be the case short of one side committing genocide or ethnic cleansing.

If 2 states depend on Israel's security and Palestinian's autonomy then current tactics indicate that they are very far from reaching that goal.

 

What I am wondering is where you got the information concerning guest workers outbreeding Jews in Israel (excluding the Palistinian territories).

Hang on.  I said nothing about guest workers "outbreeding Jews."  I only said that guest workers residing in Israel who have babies while in Israel try to immigrate on the grounds of their child having Israeli citizenship.  This is a recent phenomenon and I personally know people who are researching the demographic impact.  The significance of this trend has not yet been determined.

According to this source http://www.jewishsf.com/bk030228/us16.shtml

It was part of a planned 0.65% cut in US foreign aid overall and that the Palistinians lost $50million.

I believe the security fence related aid drop was a separate issue.  I'll try to find what I posted about it at the time it happened.

Sadly however I think that if Bush wins the next election, that we will indeed intervene...by supporting Israel to completely drive out the Palistinians from the territories they currently occupy.

I actually have the opposite view.  Although I hope he loses, a Bush victory could be of great benefit to the Palestinians.  I'll explain another time.  

[miles teg 1]

When you have a huge fence dividing Israelies from Palistinians that doesn't sound like one country to me.

I hope those people researching this demographic information are not quite as biased as you. I have been following your spats with Avon Lady and sense quite a bit of anti-Israeli bias on your part (and certainly a lot of pro-Israeli bias on Avon Lady's part). There's nothing wrong with that of coarse as we all have our biases (including myself).

However I notice that you follow this conflict closely which peaks my curiosity as to what your interest is in this conflict (aside from casual interest).

Myself, I'm working on my masters in cultural anthropology with emphasis on Middle Eastern cultures and conflict anthropology. I was also born in the region and have lived there during parts of my childhood. So my heart is there.

Concerning those demographics...

One thing that always pisses me off is when sociologists go in and do their quantifying of demographic data in a half-assed way and then make all kinds of speculations which they try to pass off as truth or as highly predictive indicators without accounting for many other factors. I will be VERY interested in seeing your friend's demographic research. I can almost assure you that I'll find serious methodological mistakes or major faults in such a study's conclusions. That goes for almost any social science research which is why I think it is healthy to critique such studies rather then just swallow it as "truth" without looking carefully at the study.

If you can't tell I have little faith in statistics due to the fact that they can be so easily manipulated to prove almost any point if you leave out variables or play with the numbers a bit by doing stuff like lopping off (excessively) outlayers in the statistics or by improperly categorizing subjects or using some other faulty data.

With that said, I have no problems with quantifying data, I just have problems with the lack of qualitative data and emic perspective present in many such studies of the Middle East.

In other words, all too often the studies are set up entirely to prove an already assumed notion rather then to disprove it.

This is of coarse a problem with all sciences...but particularly dangerous in the area of applied social sciences where such studies are often the root of foreign or domestic policies carried out by governments.

As far as how a Bush victory would help the Palistinians....that's beyond me unless you believe in more militancy amongst Arabs and Muslims against the United States and Israel.... if so then I would love to learn about the roots of your beliefs.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bernadotte 0]

When you have a huge fence dividing Israelies from Palistinians that doesn't sound like one country to me.

Hmm... My dictionary doesn't mention anything about fences in its definition of country.

 

I hope those people researching this demographic information are not quite as biased as you.

My friends doing the demographics research are Israeli and American.  One is an anthropologist.  One was an Israeli parliamentary assistant.

Most of my non-news info sources are Israeli.  None are Palestinian or Arab.

As I've said before, I'm pro-Israel and pro-Palestine, but anti-Sharon and anti-Arafat.

By the way, I would be very happy if there would never again be a state called Palestine.  And following a long process of compensation and reconciliation everyone would live in the existing nation of Israel.

Now let's look at your bias for a second.

Where do these figures come from???  It's always a good idea to cite references when talking demographics.

In that same post you readily agreed with shinRaiden, even though he posted no sources at all for his claims.  You then went on to claim that "98% of all Middle Eastern students in the United States are studying some sort of science or mathamatics."  I don't necessarily disagree, but it seemed a bit hypocritical of you to insist that I produce references for my stats while neglecting to do so yourself.

*sigh*

But nevermind.  I appreciate your disclosure about your personal attachment to the region and I will gladly PM you links to my friends' studies, when available.

[WhoCares 0]

Facts (according to CIA) about Israel and Palestine, only listed with the two parts,  Gaza Strip and West Bank.

Please note, that the settlers are included in the israeli stats.

Quote[/b] ]note: includes about 187,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, about 20,000 in the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights, more than 5,000 in the Gaza Strip, and fewer than 177,000 in East Jerusalem (February 2003 est.) (July 2003 est.)

[miles teg 1]

When you have a huge fence dividing Israelies from Palistinians that doesn't sound like one country to me.

Hmm... My dictionary doesn't mention anything about fences in its definition of country.

 

I hope those people researching this demographic information are not quite as biased as you.

My friends doing the demographics research are Israeli and American.  One is an anthropologist.  One was an Israeli parliamentary assistant.

Most of my non-news info sources are Israeli.  None are Palestinian or Arab.

As I've said before, I'm pro-Israel and pro-Palestine, but anti-Sharon and anti-Arafat.

By the way, I would be very happy if there would never again be a state called Palestine.  And following a long process of compensation and reconciliation everyone would live in the existing nation of Israel.

Now let's look at your bias for a second.

Where do these figures come from???  It's always a good idea to cite references when talking demographics.

In that same post you readily agreed with shinRaiden, even though he posted no sources at all for his claims.  You then went on to claim that "98% of all Middle Eastern students in the United States are studying some sort of science or mathamatics."  I don't necessarily disagree, but it seemed a bit hypocritical of you to insist that I produce references for my stats while neglecting to do so yourself.

*sigh*

But nevermind.  I appreciate your disclosure about your personal attachment to the region and I will gladly PM you links to my friends' studies, when available.

ShinRaiden didn't use any statistics in his reply and I said "probably 98%", which means I am guessing and basing that estimate off of my own general observations which may be way off.   But I think most university students would agree that in general most international students from the Middle East do not come here to study liberal arts.

Anyhoo...it was just a general observation.  As I said I do have my biases.   But as I also said, I am not against using statistics as long as it is done well.   Hell, I've probably even quoted a few now and then, but I'm not above being questioned about the source of those numbers because it is indeed often very tempting to quote statistics.  Something about quoting statistical data gives an arguement an aura of truth.   My main beef however is that all too often statistical analysis of human beings is done poorly.  

I would be interested in learning more about your anthropologist friend and their research.  Depending on who I work for after graduation, I may find myself in that region.  Even if I don't end up in Israel or the Palistinian territories I plan on doing some type of conflict anthropology research in the Middle East.  

As for the fence, sorry I still disagree... everything in Israeli and American statements about this issue indicates that they both want to see an independent Palistinian state and an end to this mess.... with Palistinians I'm assuming split between those who want their own state, and those who want to see the destruction of Israel and the emergence of an Islamic "Palestine".

Some Israelies seem to fear that a Palistinian state will only use peace to slowly build up its military resources and population to continue the fight later.  

I don't think that fear is entirely unfounded either judging from the attitudes of some Palistinians I have talked to.

But I do agree that it would wonderful if they were all one big united country of Jews, Muslims, and Christians (and other religions) all living together in peace in the holy land.

But I don't see it happening realistically.  

If you do, I'd be interested in hearing the processes by which you believe that could happen.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[shinRaiden 0]

Actually, I was agreeing with Miles, and not the other way around as he's got the references more readily availiable. The best political source I've found is "From Beirut to Jerusalem" by Thomas Friedman of the NY Times. A lebanese co-worker had also read it and generally agreed with with the beirut half of the story, although he had his opinions about the israeli half.

I personally have seen confirmation of all the numbers Miles has posted, I just don't have the references handy. The low relative birth rate problem is not unique to Israel, as Europe and Asia are looking at catastrophe ~20-50 years out, but the problem is more immediate in the ME given the instability of the region.

For what it's worth though, I did talk with Ehud Olmert in a student forum while I was over there in 2000 before things blew up - while he was still mayor of jerusalem - and he stuck me as a severe personality type, a cut-no-crap-this-is-the-way-its-going-to-be or its-my-way-or-the-hiway type. Contrast that with every arab I've ever worked with, they tend to be as easy to nail down as mud. Just something cultural.

Okay, here's a process that would be idealistic - the Jews would have to stop dragging out Yad Vashem and calling each Sbarros' pizza shop bombing "Warsaw in our time", and the Palestinians would have to buckle down and collectively negotiate individual liberty, and quit the nonsense of pretending that a terrorist gang of thugs can be a respectable government. The police can not be running the mob by night and still have law and order prevail. That 'solution' however, is diametrically opposed to the Israeli stress factor and the palestinian waffliness.

But so long as ANY shots are fired, and threatenings mumbled on either side, panic and stonewalling goes into overdrive on both sides and nothing productive happens. I will say though that all the chrisitian palestinians I spoke with tended to be a bit more relaxed and open to western style negotiations than their muslim counterparts.

[shinRaiden 0]

Additionally, as I routinely BS to the survey takers when they call here to deliberately muck with the system, and also I tend to withhold a lot of the actual hows and why's for the same survey's, and I know many friends who do likewise, I to would like to see how these reports are created and presumed to be accurate.

It's real easy to do, just engage the worker in friendly conversation, let them do the talking, take what ever they say, and spin it back to them. If they think they see through it, use the Inshallah method and spin it a little better. If you can't bluff them, just keep running around in circles until they give up.

If you've ever tried to nail down an appointment time with a palestinian or any arab in general, you'll understand exactly what I'm saying.

[Bernadotte 0]

ShinRaiden didn't use any statistics in his reply...

Neither did I and, besides, I didn't say he used any.

...and I said "probably 98%", which means I am guessing and basing that estimate off of my own general observations which may be way off.

When I wrote "non-Jews may already constitute a clear majority..." you replied with:

Non-Jews outnumber Jews in Israel?

I hope you don't think the word "may" suggests greater certainty than the word "probably."

As for the fence, sorry I still disagree... everything in Israeli and American statements about this issue indicates that they both want to see an independent Palistinian state and an end to this mess....

But that does not mean a second state already exists.  They haven't even reached agreement on the damn borders or where the capital will be.

Actually, I was agreeing with Miles, and not the other way around...

Really?  Then what did Miles mean when he said:

...ShinRaiden, I agree.

I personally have seen confirmation of all the numbers Miles has posted...

Umm... Miles has not posted any numbers.  

[miles teg 1]

LOL! Maybe those were you numbers he was confirming?

Nah I don't know. I may have posted some statistics awhile back or something but I think he was talking about your statistics.

And yes I didn't notice the word "may" in your sentence. My apologies. Nevertheless it doesn't mean it was incorrect to question that assertion. But I think all it boils down is that we have a difference in opinion in what exactly constitutes the nation of Israel. I don't see the Palistinian territories as part of Israel simply because realistically I don't see that ever happening without the use of genocide or ethnic cleansing.

It would however be a noble goal. But I think it would take many generations before such a goal of a united Muslim/Jewish/Christian nation of Israel could ever be achieved. Currently I don't think most Israelies are interested in such a goal anyways...although i could be wrong and I do believe that economic realities may force a change in this type of thinking. Germany for example was forced to admit that its economic growth was heavily dependent on immigration from countries like Turkey. So they've been forced to deal with the cultural changes to their country due to the foreign immigration into Germany (how successful perhaps someone from Germany can comment on). But really there has historically always been immigration and migration all over the world so it shouldn't be a big deal. But people act as if culture is eternal and should never change when in fact cultures always change over time whether we want them to or not. Change however is difficult and not always good...but if its not good then it can change again. It's just one of the amazing ways in which our species adapts to new challenges in our enviornment.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bernadotte 0]

... But I think all it boils down is that we have a difference in opinion in what exactly constitutes the nation of Israel.

It is actually Israel that harbours and exploits 2 different opinions of what is Israel.

Version 1 - within 1967 Borders

- pop. 6.6 million; 80% Jew and 20% non-Jew

- refugee pop. ~40,000

- democracy; everyone has the right to vote

- in violation of Geneva Conv because of settling occupied territories beyond its state borders

- Palestinian state to have 1967 borders

Version 2 - within current international borders

- pop. 10 million; 53% Jew and 47% non-Jew

- refugee pop. > 1 million

- partial-democracy; 66% of population has the right to vote

- not in violation of Geneva Conv because settlements are within its state borders

- Palestinian State to have whatever borders Israel eventually allows

The actual version that Israel chooses to adopt in a given moment always depends on which question is being asked.

For example:

Shouldn't Israel care for the millions of Palestinian refugees within its borders instead of UNRWA?  (Version 1)

Shouldn't the security fence follow the future border of the Palestinian state? (Version 2)

Is Israel a true democracy?  (Version 1)

Do settlements violate the Geneva Convention?  (Version 2)

etc, etc.

And in a very short while, when asked if Israel is truly a Jewish state only version 1 will allow a yes answer.  This means that the Palestinian leadership's strongest weapon will soon be the full ceasation of violence and the complete abandonment of their independence struggle.  In that moment, Israel would either cease to be a Jewish state or cease to be a democracy.

Get the picture?

[miles teg 1]

Yes but I think that's an idealistic view and not reality.  Just because the Palistinians stop fighting doesn't mean suddenly Jewish Israelies will all suddenlly have a change of heart and forget about their dreams of a Jewish nation and instead choose democracy over their religious beliefs.  

I don't think it's impossible because of the simple economic reality that immigration fuels economic growth and true democracy is well... democratic.  But even the United States does not always abide by the Geneva convention so I don't think that's a particularly strong arguement for change to most Israelies.

However if you were to outline a plan to change the beliefs of Israelies then perhaps that arguement for your version 2 would gain some strength.    But I don't think a end of Palistinian violence would do it alone.  

The dream of a Jewish nation is a powerful one and is one that they are seeing today (not considering the Palistinian territories).   The Palistinian territories stand in the way of that dream hence the reason they realize that the Palistinians need their own nation seperate from them.   Nobody is talking about reuniting both sides as one nation.  Would the world love to see that?  Yes.  Will happen?  Very little chance of that in my opinion.  So you can debate all you want about how this view needs to change, but unless you outline a plan for change that might be acceptable to most Israelies, then there is little hope of this short of a successful invasion by Arab armies.  

Change people's perceptions and belief systems and you change reality.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Bernadotte 0]

...Nobody is talking about reuniting both sides as one nation.

LOL... Perhaps you thought it was my idea.

Quote[/b] ]Ahmed Qureia, the Palestinian prime minister, warned yesterday that he would seek a single state of Jews and Arabs if Ariel Sharon unilaterally annexed parts of the West Bank and imposed borders on Palestine. Mr Qureia, in an interview with Reuters, said his administration would abandon trying for an independent country and campaign for equal rights for Palestinians in a bi-national state incorporating the occupied territories into Israel.

Most Israelis strongly oppose unification because the number of Arabs is expected to overtake the Jewish majority in a few years. There are about 4.7m Arabs and 5.5m Jews in Israel and the occupied territories.

In Washington, the US secretary of state, Colin Powell, said separation, not integration, was the only solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. "I believe that's the only solution that will work: a state for the Palestinian people called Palestine and a Jewish state, state of Israel, which exists."

-- Guardian, 9 Jan 2004

If that happens then Israel would have no choice but to establish Palestinian Bantustans, turning Israel into a carbon copy of apartheid South Africa with all the eventual trade embargos that went with it.

[Guest]

...Nobody is talking about reuniting both sides as one nation.

LOL... Perhaps you thought it was my idea.

Quote[/b] ]Ahmed Qureia, the Palestinian prime minister, warned yesterday that he would seek a single state of Jews and Arabs if Ariel Sharon unilaterally annexed parts of the West Bank and imposed borders on Palestine.  Mr Qureia, in an interview with Reuters, said his administration would abandon trying for an independent country and campaign for equal rights for Palestinians in a bi-national state incorporating the occupied territories into Israel.

Most Israelis strongly oppose unification because the number of Arabs is expected to overtake the Jewish majority in a few years. There are about 4.7m Arabs and 5.5m Jews in Israel and the occupied territories.

In Washington, the US secretary of state, Colin Powell, said separation, not integration, was the only solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. "I believe that's the only solution that will work: a state for the Palestinian people called Palestine and a Jewish state, state of Israel, which exists."

-- Guardian, 9 Jan 2004

If that happens then Israel would have no choice but to establish Palestinian Bantustans, turning Israel into a carbon copy of apartheid South Africa with all the eventual trade embargos that went with it.

While I don't see a palestinian - EDIT- Transkei anytime soon, there won't be a single state solution either.  The mitigating factor (which you have correctly identified) is the demographic problem, but you have to understand that Israeli's are not willing to drop 50 years of history as a Jewish MAJORITY for peace.  IMHO, the palestinian state will be on the '67 borders (give or take a few).  The key sticking points are the capital, contiguity, and whether or not there can be a Palestinian "army"...

[Bernadotte 0]

While I don't see a palestinian Lesotho anytime soon, there won't be a single state solution either.

1.  Lesotho was not a bantustan.

2. There already is a single state.

3.  If Israel tries to force statehood on an unwilling Palestinian people who will lead it?  Nobody.  It will end up exactly like apartheid South Aftrica.

The mitigating factor (which you have correctly identified) is the demographic problem, but you have to understand that Israeli's are not willing to drop 50 years of history as a Jewish MAJORITY for peace.  IMHO, the palestinian state will be on the '67 borders (give or take a few).

 

I agree, but you must admit that the Palestinians still hold this very powerful Mandela card in their hand.

The key sticking points are the capital, contiguity, and whether or not there can be a Palestinian "army"...

I believe the key sticking points are:

1.  Israel's security - And I don't mean convincing Palestinians not to attack Israel.  I mean convincing Israelis that Palestinians will not attack Israel.

2.  Refugees - And I don't mean the ones in the territories.  I mean the millions in neighbouring states like Lebanon, Syria and Jordan.

3.  Settlers - The political party that uproots settlements can kiss at least 20% of the Israeli electorate goodbye for the next few decades.

Then comes Jerusalem and borders.  Most Palestinians would not object to having a KFOR-like multinational force instead of their own army, as has been proposed in the Geneva Initiative's Article 5, Section 6.

[Bernadotte 0]

Facts (according to CIA) about Israel and Palestine, only listed with the two parts,  Gaza Strip and West Bank.

Does it really matter that the CIA's map of Israel looks like this as long as the Israeli government's map looks like this?  

[Guest]

Facts (according to CIA) about Israel and Palestine, only listed with the two parts,  Gaza Strip and West Bank.

Does it really matter that the CIA's map of Israel looks like this as long as the Israeli government's map looks like this?  

Don't get started on maps...

that map (from a cursory glance) seems to have been drawn up around Oslo time, with Area's A,B,and C clearly identified, in yellow.

Fact:  A palestinian state does not exist, therefore, that map is debatably correct.

Now, on to the map of "Palestine" found on every PLO insignia, in every textbook, and even on Arafat's uniform.

Fact:  The state of Israel (post 48) DOES exist and the cities of Tel Aviv and Haifa DO exist; thus these maps are UNDEBATEBLY wrong...

Quote[/b] ]2. There already is a single state.

I was referring to a proposed "single state solution" which grants palestinians citizenship in greater israel.

Quote[/b] ]I agree, but you must admit that the Palestinians still hold this very powerful Mandela card in their hand.

That is an insult to the great work that Mandela did...  For a better comparison of the Palestinian Model for self determination, read Franz Fontze's "The wretched of the Earth" where he discusses unrestrained violence as the means to throw off an occupation.

Quote[/b] ]1.  Israel's security - And I don't mean convincing Palestinians not to attack Israel.  I mean convincing Israelis that Palestinians will not attack Israel.

I agree with this statement in part, but are you saying groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad are really irrelevant, or won't attack israel even if a deal is reached?

Quote[/b] ]2.  Refugees - And I don't mean the ones in the territories.  I mean the millions in neighbouring states like Lebanon, Syria and Jordan.

Only a major sticking point because they choose it to be (which is a wise tactic in a confrontational sense)

Quote[/b] ]3.  Settlers - The political party that uproots settlements can kiss at least 20% of the Israeli electorate goodbye for the next few decades.

True.  But I think that the three things you have mentioned (except #2) have already been accepted by the majority of Israeli's as an inevitability.  Nobody has really been able to (or had a chance to) discuss the finer details (which is where these things tend to crash and burn) like the Palestinian capital, or how palestinians will get from Gaza to the west bank, or what kind of armed forces they will have (I'm all for peacekeepers, but I don't think the Palestinians are...)

In the end though, your first reason (security) is most likely the primary issue, although I think steps cant be taken until Hamas and all the other militants are knocked down a peg...

[theavonlady 2]

Does it really matter that the CIA's map of Israel looks like this as long as the Israeli government's map looks like this?  

My but aren't you devious. Same map but here's the page it's on, with a detailed boundary line and color code legend underneath.

[Guest]

This is the best explanation for the lopsided death toll I've yet found, because, as they say, a picture is worth a thousand...

Quote[/b] ]Palestinians take cover during clashes with Israeli troops in the Zitoun neighborhood in Gaza CIty, Wednesday, Jan. 28, 2004. Palestinian medical sources said at least eight people were killed in the clashes. (AP Photo/Kevin Frayer)

Yahoo news

[Acecombat 0]

Um rufusmac what are you trying to say?

Its only one frame , the shootout might have happened for hour(s) , have you got a full recorded VIDEO for us to see ?

Please bring your evidence forward so we can see how correct your info is.....

[Guest]

lol, i'm not going to comment on it, because it should be glaringly obvious whats going on here (unless the AP has gotten into the business of doctoring photos for the Israeli propaganda machine   )

Quote[/b] ]Palestinian militants prepare a rocket propelled grenade during clashes with Israeli forces in the Zitoun neighborhood in Gaza CIty, Wednesday, Jan. 28, 2004. Palestinian medical sources said at least eight people were killed in the clashes. (AP Photo/Kevin Frayer)

Source

EDIT: And this one makes me truly sick

Quote[/b] ]Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin is pushed in his wheelchair by bodyguards as he arrives for Friday prayers at a mosque in Gaza City January 16, 2004. Israel has marked Yassin for death following a suicide bombing that killed three Israeli soldiers and a security officer in Gaza, Israel's deputy defense chief said. Photo by Mohammed Salem/Reuters

Yahoo news

[Acecombat 0]

How ironic then , here you are trying to say that P authorites blasphemised casualty reports and you dont have the evidence to back up your claim .... ah well everyones jumping on the BUSHie way to prove things i guess just like those WMD claims