The Middle East part 2

[Longinius 1]

So now every common Palestinian is a member of the Al Aqsa martyr brigade too?

[theavonlady 2]

The DC area got their break when the DC sniper got nabbed. When does Gilo get a break? Should Gilo get a break? If they 'deserve' to be sniped to 'even the score' for hits in Gaza, would you care to explain that?

AFAIK, nobody here posted anything about Gilo.  But, perhaps you should read this.

How extra-ordinarily exciting! A little background data on your Pal, Atef Abayat at the time:

The Palestinians claimed on numerous occasions that the

Palestinian Authority (PA) had arrested Palestinians involved

in terrorist acts. On 2 October, the PA announced it had

arrested Atef Abayat, head of the Tanzim in Bethlehem (a

Fatah organization responsible for terrorist acts, also

operating under the name Al - Aqsa Brigades). Abayat was

involved in numerous terrorist shooting attacks, which killed

many Israeli civilians.

The PA also claimed to have arrested Raaed Karmi, who was

personally responsible for the murders of Israeli civilians.

The facts: Israel knew that Atef Abayat was not arrested.

On 18 October, Atef Abayat and 2 other terrorists were

targeted by IDF while strolling freely in the Bethlehem area

and organizing more terrorist attacks. Raaed

Karmi was also targeted by the IDF.

And as for colusion between Arafat and Abayat:

In a related item, AP reports today that Palestinian

Authority documents show that Yasser Arafat - who is

obligated by the terms of the Oslo and many other

agreements to take all means to arrest terrorists - in fact

authorized payment to at least one terrorist allegedly

involved in killing several Israelis. Other documents found in

the PA's Orient House headquarters show that Arafat was in

contact with Palestinian political and security officials

suspected of organizing terrorism. The most damning piece of

evidence is a letter with Arafat's signature dated July 9, 2001

approving a $300 payment to Atef Abayat, a wanted leader

of the Al Aqsa Brigades.

[theavonlady 2]

So now every common Palestinian is a member of the Al Aqsa martyr brigade too?

That's all you have to say?

Not surprised.

[Longinius 1]

What else is there to say? Naturally this kind of fanatics will indoctrinate their kids with their own belief. I could produce as many phots and then some of American militia men posing with their armed kids, and rappers putting guns in their babies hands. This doesnt mean all Americans bring up their children this way, or are prone to violence.

I am quite sure there are many Israeli parents who indoctrinate their own kids, so it doesnt really say much about common, every day people. Oh, i forgot. There are no common palestinians. They are all evil demons from the pits of hell!!

[theavonlady 2]

What else is there to say? Naturally this kind of fanatics will indoctrinate their kids with their own belief. I could produce as many phots and then some of American militia men posing with their armed kids, and rappers putting guns in their babies hands. This doesnt mean all Americans bring up their children this way, or are prone to violence.

You really don't know what's flying here, do you?

You have no idea where and for what your paid tax Euros have been going to all these years.

Take a look at these Palestinian incitement videos. They represent examples of Pal TV broadcasts, school assemblies and other events open and viewable to the entire PA population.

Well, I suppose maybe there's hope for those Pal children that don't watch TV. So sorry I generalized and included them.

[Longinius 1]

Propagande in controlled media, hardly a new phenomena. But I am sure that there is no such similar thing exposed to Israeli children. They get the truth from all angles so they can make up their own mind, surely not tainted by opinions of Pal hating Israeli grown-ups...

Someone wrote it before in the thread. As long as neither side even bothers to contemplate the plight of their enemy, peace will never be achieved. Well, atleast not until one side is totally wiped out.

So you got two choises:

1. Kill all Palestinians

2. Try and achieve peace through understanding and meeting them half way.

Oh, yes, of course. I know. No palestinian wants peace with Israel. They all want to kill you. They are the spawn of devils.

The third solution would be:

3. Chuck religion out the window and you'll notice that there isnt much to kill each other for anymore.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]

The third solution would be:

3. Chuck religion out the window and you'll notice that there isnt much to kill each other for anymore.

I think it's gone way beyond religion long time ago...

[theavonlady 2]

Propagande in controlled media, hardly a new phenomena. But I am sure that there is no such similar thing exposed to Israeli children.

No, there isn't. Of course you know better so you can point such equiavelent public and government sponsored Israeli examples to me.

Your answers ring hollow. You excuse everything except when it comes to Israel. Then nothing is excusable.

Quote[/b] ] They get the truth from all angles so they can make up their own mind, surely not tainted by opinions of Pal hating Israeli grown-ups...

Try documenting your points. Good luck!

Quote[/b] ]

Someone wrote it before in the thread. As long as neither side even bothers to contemplate the plight of their enemy, peace will never be achieved. Well, atleast not until one side is totally wiped out.

Israel abided by the Oslo Agrements. Israel withdrew from the areas agreed upon. The agreement's slogan was "Land For Peace". It was just the opposite.

Quote[/b] ]

So you got two choises:

1. Kill all Palestinians

2. Try and achieve peace through understanding and meeting them half way.

3. Wage an all out war, recapture all territories withdrawn from, offer an autonomy plan for those willing to cease using violence and miltary and judicial action against those who don't.

Quote[/b] ]

Oh, yes, of course. I know. No palestinian wants peace with Israel. They all want to kill you. They are the spawn of devils.

I'm sure there were some nice Nazis, too.

Quote[/b] ]The third solution would be:

3. Chuck religion out the window and you'll notice that there isnt much to kill each other for anymore.

Thank you, oh great believer of individual freedom!

OK. Come here and get them to chuck theirs first. You'll discover that we won't have to chuck ours and there will still be peace.

BTW, do you have any idea what percentage of Israelis are religiously observant, to begin with?

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]3. Wage an all out war, recapture all territories withdrawn from, offer an autonomy plan for those willing to cease using violence and miltary and judicial action against those who don't.

I really don't think sparking all-out war would be helpful to bring stability...Syria, Lebanon and Egypt would not just stand by and watch and you'd have unprecidented conflict on your hands. My humble suggestion is to get rid of Arafat and Sharon, then somehow revive Oslo process with the help of Palestinian leader and new Israeli PM, mark the borders fairly (not the path which the wall is taking) and form diplomatic relations between two nations. Palestinians agree to illegalize terror organizations, Israel dismantles settlements on PA territory. And so forth...

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]I think it's gone way beyond religion long time ago...

Of course it has. But as long as religion is used to fuel the conflict it sure as brushfire wont end.

Quote[/b] ]No, there isn't. Of course you know better so you can point such equiavelent public and government sponsored Israeli examples to me.

Equivalent, no, I cant. I dont get that many Israeli channels I am afraid. However, knowing human nature, my experience tell me that children are quite effected by the grown ups around them. If grown ups spout hatred towards a certain group of people, children will quickly pick up on this. TV shows arent needed in order to fill children with hate.

Quote[/b] ]Your answers ring hollow. You excuse everything except when it comes to Israel. Then nothing is excusable.

I never said that. And I havent excused anything. There is no excuse for turning your child into a hating monster. But like I and others have told you time and time again, we all know that these things are done by the palestinians. We all have acknowledged that its bad. Our point however is that Israel is also to blame in all this. Which you of course always deny. Since Israel and its people are chosen by God (handy excuse that one, musnt forget to include it in my future cult enterprises).

Quote[/b] ]I'm sure there were some nice Nazis, too.

Yes, and I am sure all Germans were nazis. Just like all Palestinians are members of terrorist groups.

Quote[/b] ]Thank you, oh great believer of individual freedom!

Individual freedom is fine, as long as it doesnt start inflicting pain on others. Then society tends to think its unacceptable. I hold the same view on religions. What a believer does in his home, church or on the street is unimportant to me. As long as it isnt leading to pain and suffering for others.

Quote[/b] ]OK. Come here and get them to chuck theirs first. You'll discover that we won't have to chuck ours and there will still be peace.

Why not chuck it at the same time?

Quote[/b] ]BTW, do you have any idea what percentage of Israelis are religiously observant, to begin with?

Doesnt matter. As the sole argument for Israels existence is the fact that God gave the Jews that land, it has no relevance how many actually care. As long as its the nations guideline to justify what they do, its a problem.

[ozanzac 0]

Avon, can I ask you, as a citizen of Israel, are you for or against a Palestinian state? Because this seems to be the root of the problem in the middle east, that there is no real Palestinian state partly due to the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip by Israel.

[WhoCares 0]

3. Wage an all out war, recapture all territories withdrawn from, offer an autonomy plan for those willing to cease using violence and miltary and judicial action against those who don't.

What would be the all-out war be good for? This is already exactly what you do today, offering them peace on your terms.

Except the war would work something like this:

1. All civilists evacuate, going into refugee camps in Syria, Jordan and Egypt.

2. IDF obliterate any remnants in the questioned territories.

3. Nobody left to claim territory for a palestinian nation.

4. A lot of new room for israeli settlements.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]I dont get that many Israeli channels I am afraid. However, knowing human nature, my experience tell me that children are quite effected by the grown ups around them. If grown ups spout hatred towards a certain group of people, children will quickly pick up on this. TV shows arent needed in order to fill children with hate

Actually I think secular Israeli youths are very active on the pro-peace movement. If there was such large parent-based hate machinated, then why don't we seem ore vengeance attacks from Israelis? Whatever Hate which they must feel after suicide bombings going off is not comparable to PA propaganda machine in which you are blasted with anti-Jewish/Israeli propaganda from every direction. And of course, this is fueled more by the funerals of those killed by Israeli raids, innocent or terrorist, but nevertheless 'martyrs'. Propaganda from cradle to grave is one main obstacle in achieving peace.

Quote[/b] ]As the sole argument for Israels existence is the fact that God gave the Jews that land

C'mon that's not a sole argument for any country's existence...It all has something to do with real politics of the time.

[OmniMax 0]

The entire situation sounds like something familiar.

...The Resistance campaign?

Seems like Palenstine is putting up a poor resistance, though.

Although this reply will probably be ignored due to the current flame baiting that is going on.

Carry on.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]The entire situation sounds like something familiar.

...The Resistance campaign?

Viktor Troska leading a squad of suicide bombers and gunmen?LOL. And in the end he martyrs himself for free Nogova...well would be rather interesting.

Actually reminds me how is the Lost Brothers campaign doing?

Quote[/b] ]occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip by Israel

They were very close in solving this in Oslo, now Barak has lost his premiership, Clinton gone, Arafat still hanging in there and no peace forthcoming...

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]Actually I think secular Israeli youths are very active on the pro-peace movement. If there was such large parent-based hate machinated, then why don't we seem ore vengeance attacks from Israelis?

Maybe because Israeli citizens have an army that is quite willing to issue payback when Palestinians have attacked their civilians? Israeli citizens do not have to go on a rampage when they have armed forces to do the fighting.

Quote[/b] ]C'mon that's not a sole argument for any country's existence...It all has something to do with real politics of the time.

So the reason for Israels foundation and existance isnt based on the religous idea that its their land? If not, then why was Israel founded on that specific location?

[shinRaiden 0]

My understanding was that the '48 partition was supposed to create a israeli and a palestinian states, but Jordan hijacked that. Furthermore Jordan got caught up in politiking with Syria and Egypt, and got stuck with all the east bank refugees. Then when Israel threatened to flatten Amman for harboring the PLO, King Hussein told them to leave. Arafat responding by calling for his head. The native Jordanians were indignant and ran him out of town. Allegedly Arafat had to sneak out dressed like an old widow.

[Bernadotte 0]

The DC area got their break when the DC sniper got nabbed. When does Gilo get a break? Should Gilo get a break? If they 'deserve' to be sniped to 'even the score' for hits in Gaza, would you care to explain that?

AFAIK, nobody here posted anything about Gilo.  But, perhaps you should read this.

How extra-ordinarily exciting! A little background data on your Pal, Atef Abayat at the time:

[snip] ~ 300 word essay having absolutely nothing to do with the Gilo settlement ~ [/snip]

If you must spam my discussion with shinRaiden then at least stay on topic.  Posting references or links would also be useful rather than just cutting and pasting an argument that someone chose to have with himself.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Maybe because Israeli citizens have an army that is quite willing to issue payback when Palestinians have attacked their civilians? Israeli citizens do not have to go on a rampage when they have armed forces to do the fighting.

That was not the issue. We were talking about Israeli civilian citizens and the suspected systematic anti-Palestinian propaganda being fed to them. I fully don't buy the theory that those who really hate something and are brought up with hating something just sit back and wait for army do the 'dirtywork'.

Quote[/b] ]Israels foundation and existance isnt based on the religous idea that its their land? If not, then why was Israel founded on that specific location?

Of course it's a guiding principle of zionism.

But that is not the only reason, there were also some Jews living there before WW2 as a minority. Just after WW2 and holocaust there was bigger influx of refugees followed by creation of Israel. None of it probably wouldn't have happened without WW2 after which this idea of national home for Jews really got wind on it's sails.

But by saying that it's just based on God's word makes it sound that only religiously fanatical ones were those which moved there and the idea just formed up of thin air. I'm pretty sure many Israelis think today it's not just for them but Palestinians also. So if they would have followed this God's Word to the letter there wouldn't be Palestinians there anymore. Let alone 20% Arabs and other nationalities which live in Israel.

But there probably wouldn't be any crisis today if things would have been settled back then in 1947/8, but neither side gave up and this is how we ended up in this mess. Beneath all the religious rhetoric I think it's all based on old-fashioned nationalism. Religion just fueled that sentiment.

[Bernadotte 0]

3. Wage an all out war, recapture all territories withdrawn from, offer an autonomy plan for those willing to cease using violence and miltary and judicial action against those who don't.

And what if Israel's autonomy plan would be simply rejected by those willing to cease using violence?  What would you have in store for those people?

[WhoCares 0]

3. Wage an all out war, recapture all territories withdrawn from, offer an autonomy plan for those willing to cease using violence and miltary and judicial action against those who don't.

And what if Israel's autonomy plan would be simply rejected by those willing to cease using violence?  What would you have in store for those people?

That's not possible, because after the war there would be only those palestinians left that accept the israeli terms.

[OmniMax 0]

Of course it's a guiding principle of zionism.

But that is not the only reason, there were also some Jews living there before WW2 as a minority. Just after WW2 and holocaust there was bigger influx of refugees followed by creation of Israel. None of it probably wouldn't have happened without WW2 after which this idea of national home for Jews really got wind on it's sails.

So basicly, they stole the land.

I believe it is called take over by "culture" (hey, thats what civ 3 calls it)

As in, take over by foreign population. There wasn't enough control on imigration. Atleast this sounds correct from what I'm reading in Wikipediahere

It must suck living some place under British rule for a long time, having them give the colony back but not back to you...

"Oh, sorry, you can't have your land back, we're giving it to these people instead."

Sucky.

[Bernadotte 0]

3. Wage an all out war, recapture all territories withdrawn from, offer an autonomy plan for those willing to cease using violence and miltary and judicial action against those who don't.

And what if Israel's autonomy plan would be simply rejected by those willing to cease using violence?  What would you have in store for those people?

That's not possible, because after the war there would be only those palestinians left that accept the israeli terms.

How do you figure?  What would have happened to the peaceful people after the war who did not accept Israel's terms?  

Btw, this is not a hypothetical question.  The PA prime minister has already said that they would stop pursuing autonomy if Israel 's peace terms were not guided by the RoadMap.  In that case, the occupation would end with a single state and the only way Israel could preserve a Jewish majority would be to evolve into a segregationist state similar to South Africa under apartheid.  So much for being the "only true democracy" in the Middle East.

[Bernadotte 0]

It must suck living some place under British rule for a long time, having them give the colony back but not back to you...

"Oh, sorry, you can't have your land back, we're giving it to these people instead."

The worst part is that foreign powers were giving ~50% of the country to a group of people who were not keen on sharing their new state with the locals.  That's why Israel's first proposed borders were drawn around areas where Jews constituted a majority of the population.

The 1947 - 49 War of Independence resulted in 3/4 million Palestinians fleeing their homes.  This was a perfect opportunity for Israel to enlarge its area to 78% of Palestine without losing that essential Jewish majority.  To keep that majority intact, Jews were encouraged to come to Israel from all over the world and Palestinians have never been allowed to return to the properties they'd fled.

[OmniMax 0]

The 1947 - 49 War of Independence resulted in 3/4 million Palestinians fleeing their homes.  This was a perfect opportunity for Israel to enlarge its area to 78% of Palestine without losing that essential Jewish majority.  To keep that majority intact, Jews were encouraged to come to Israel from all over the world and Palestinians have never been allowed to return to the properties they'd fled.

They shouldn't even be there in the first place (Israel).

Imigration can be good, but something that must be taken in small doses. Britian should have watched the flow of people into it's colony instead of just happily watching the numbers on exported natrual resources.

I put myself in the shoes of both people and find myself sympathizing with the Palenstians.

When I said this reminded me of the Resistance campaign, I was serious.  It's just like Russia (read: Israel) invading Nogova (read: Palenstine)

Every time Palenstine tries to resist (with it's various methods, I'm not saying I support suicide bombing civvies), Israel just fights back more violently. Israel out guns them. (Hmm sounds like... OFP: RESISTANCE!!)

Palenstine is literally screwed. They should just stop all resistance. As an official government, as citizens, all resistance whatsoever.

To do what? To go where? Intergrate into Israeli society? I doubt that will work.

Doesn't sound like this fence thing is going to work, either.