The Middle East part 2

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]I can only assume you're referring to the refugee camps.

No, I am not. I am referring to the camps created when settlements are surrounded and closed off by walls, with gates controlled by the IDF who dictates who and when gets in and out.

Then you're making up pure fiction.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]It was a precondition presented by Israel, who were stupid enough to believe that the hosting government was reliable in their assurances.

And that government honored the agreement. The agreement was that the conference wouldnt touch on the subject of the mid-east. And it wont.

No. The agreement included anything having to do with the conference. The ambassador was invited to this exhibit as one of the official events related to the conference.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]When the Swedish government blundered and assured the ambassador that there would be no such offensive works at the exhibit, this is what can happen.

There was no assurance made in regards to any exhibit. It was always about the conference, and just the conference. Because that is the only thing that the government can control.

Wrong. It included the conference. It's not a question of control. It's a question of informing Ambassador Mazel in advance that the Swedish Government's assurances could

not be kept. Plain and simple.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]The same thing that's bad for you being an artist in Israel.

I dont think so. Sweden has never attacked any jewish property or vandalized their art.

Maybe that's because Israel's never blundered equivalently with Sweden's Israeli ambasador.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Yes! Let's assume conspiracy, the default assumption when an Israeli is involved!

So now a political agenda equals conspiracy? Wow....

con-spir-a-cy (kuhn spir'uh see)  n. pl. <-cies>

                 1.  the act of conspiring.

                 2.  a plan or agreement formulated, esp. in

                      secret, by two or more persons to commit

                      an unlawful, harmful, or treacherous act.

edit: supper time. Please continue enjoying yourselves.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'd say it pretty much takes on a role as irony with snowhite in a pool of blood. How can that possibly encourage terrorism and suicidal bombing?

Did I say it promotes suicide bombing? I didn't find the irony very amusing, rather disgusting. I'm just saying that it's deeply insulting to some and their views have right to be taken into account.

Should an artist have to ok their work with everyone that it might touch on?

As everyone keeps saying, there is more to the meaning behind the exhibit than just its physical representation, and its limited direct image.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]You are actually very wrong - and most people on this forum will support me in my claim! Well, your sympathies are beyond any doubt well placed within a certain category as well.

Then I should just join in the cheering majority perhaps.

Well why do we see such outbursts of hate from you?

What have I said labels me anti-Palestinian in some way? Please please tell me? Just because I find some artwork disgusting while I shouldn't and claim that suicide bombers are what they ultimately choose to be?

Quote[/b] ]unlike other people I don't want to become ignorant!

Yes, it's important to keep watchful eye on the facists in the middle east.

Quote[/b] ]I'm sure would be more upset by the real blood of their loved ones that they could see on TV.

Showing blood on TV news (and they don't show all the gore) is different than turning it into an into an artwork which conveyes the message, in my view, in a tasteless and naive fashion. They might feel exploited about the issue and I would not be surprised especially when she's called Snowwhite, a popular fairy-tale figure. I would be offended, can't help that.

Quote[/b] ]This exhibit was not aimed at the families.

Well it was open public display on public premises. At least they all know about it by know.

Quote[/b] ]A) Analyze why it happened. Review it over and over agian until we understand the cause and know how to prevent it next time.

B) Erase every trace and memory of it as it is painful to reflect upon.

C'mon who is trying to cover up horrible terror strikes anyway?

Who could possibly forget them?

Isn't there a way that the analyzing is done in a civilized way, not including pools of blood and floating snowhites in there?

Sep 11 terrorists displayed in a similiar fashion would certainly spark even more debate. But now most people cannot understand why this peace of art might offend someone just since it includes beautiful Palestinian female character and the victims were Israelis.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]Then you're making up pure fiction.

No, I am not. There is a settlement which name eludes me, but I have seen it covered on 60 minutes, national news, newspapers etc, that has been closed of totally. The IDF controls the gates in the walls, and on the other side of the walls are the local farmers fields. The IDF opens the gates early in the morning for 15 minutes and late at night, for 15 minutes. If you miss those two deadlines, you're out of luck. But, the IDF does not seem to care to much, since there has been long periods of time when the gates werent opened at all. I think the longest was a couple of weeks.

Quote[/b] ]No. The agreement included anything having to do with the conference. The ambassador was invited to this exhibit as one of the official events related to the conference.

Well, then one of us is being lied to or there was a misunderstanding between the parties involved. As far as we have been told, it was in regards to the conference, which is seperate from the exchibit.

Quote[/b] ]Wrong. It included the conference. It's not a question of control. It's a question of informing Ambassador Mazel in advance that the Swedish Government's assurances could

not be kept. Plain and simple.

Being an embassador in Sweden I am sure he knew that we have freedom of speach and that the government cannot restrict peoples artistic freedom that way. If he didnt know this, he is quite an ignorant diplomat. Which I doubt.

Quote[/b] ]Maybe that's because Israel's never blundered equivalently with Sweden's Israeli ambasador.

No, its because we honestly dont diferentiate between jewish and christian swedes (or atheists, for that matter).

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Then I should just join in the cheering majority perhaps.

Hehe

Quote[/b] ]Well why do we see such outbursts of hate from you?

Have you seen outbursts of hate from me

So where did you see that?

I'd rather say I was arguing in a propper manner - you on the other hand are the one using feelings in the debate, you are not holding back when describing how disgusted you are for one!

Quote[/b] ]What have I said labels me anti-Palestinian in some way? Please please tell me? Just because I find some artwork disgusting while I shouldn't and claim that suicide bombers are what they ultimately choose to be?

It doesn't take a genius to figure out where you sympathies lie.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, it's important to keep watchful eye on the facists in the middle east.

You don't stop to surprise me - and again you are being unreasonable. I have nothing against Israeli (jews/arabs) or the palestinians - or any other. However, to undiscriminately place the burden of guilt on the palestinians - as I'm sure you do - is wrong!

I wish for nothing else than peace israeli/palestinian conflict and I'm aware of the fact that both parties must give in on several subjects such as land etc.

[Acecombat 0]

OMg 10 pages nearly and were still stuck on that whingy piece of art

Get over it folks.

The way i see it there are two sides here and one isnt willing to take a look at the Palestinian womans life and the circumstances which lead her to what she did and instead wanna go and poke every bloody complexity to somehow drive their point across.

No wonder the peace talks end up without a result ... since no ones willing to look at the others plight no ones interested. All that matters is me me me and us us us.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]

government cannot restrict peoples artistic freedom that way.

There are many legistlations against certain things you may display in art. Virtually every government can intervene if an artwork is considered illegal. Especially anti-minority or racist things can be banned and I'm pretty sure you can't just display everything there's always a line wheter you admit or not.

Granted, this peace of art does not break any laws, but I would not consider it facist if in some countries it would be removed (not in Europe though I suspect).

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]Granted, this peace of art does not break any laws, but I would not consider it facist if in some countries it would be removed (not in Europe though I suspect).

Exactly, it breaks no laws. There for, the government can't do anything.

[denoir 0]

They might feel exploited about the issue and I would not be surprised especially when she's called Snowwhite, a popular fairy-tale figure. I would be offended, can't help that.

She was called Snow White to illustrate the difference between what you would expect from a young woman with her whole life in front of her and the murder and sucide she comitted.

The point lies in the contrast of the innocence we are born with and the madness and cruelty some are capable of.

Quote[/b] ]Isn't there a way that the analyzing is done in a civilized way, not including pools of blood and floating snowhites in there?

No, because killing isn't civilized. It is bloody and disgusting and hiding it would be hiding the truth.

[Acecombat 0]

Sharon defiant over bribery case

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon says he has no intention of standing down over a corruption case.

Quote[/b] ]"I am not about to resign," Israeli media quoted him as saying on Thursday, a day after prosecutors said they were considering charging him.

An Israeli businessman has been charged with offering millions of dollars in bribes to Mr Sharon, his deputy and one of Mr Sharon's sons.

The Israeli leader was questioned last year and denies any wrongdoing.

The BBC's David Chazan in Jerusalem says Mr Sharon's political credibility is taking a battering.

The prime minister himself is so far not facing any charges, but Justice Ministry officials say they are weighing up evidence against him and will decide whether he should be charged in the next few weeks or months.

Our correspondent says his future hangs on that decision, because if charged he will almost certainly have to leave office.

About half of Israelis believe Mr Sharon was involved in misconduct and should resign or at least step down temporarily, according to opinion polls.

More here from BBC

i hope he resigns now atleast and let someone moderatetake his place.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]The way i see it there are two sides here and one isnt willing to take a look at the Palestinian womans life and the circumstances which lead her to what she did and instead wanna go and poke every bloody complexity to somehow drive their point across.

I have looked her view extensively and understand why she did it and we can clearly see her motivations -

but I still would not label her as snowwhite and put her on a sailboat on a lake of blood. There is just something quite distasteful in that.

Quote[/b] ]you on the other hand are the one using feelings in the debate, you are not holding back when describing how disgusted you are for one!

I won't let this turn to flame fest.

Quote[/b] ]

It doesn't take a genius to figure out where you sympathies lie.

You didn't answer my question.

Quote[/b] ]

place the burden of guilt on the palestinians - as I'm sure you do - is wrong!

Again, where do I put the guilt on Palestinians on this conflict?

We were just focused on art and suicide bombers, not PA, IDF or Israeli policies in this particular subject.

Quote[/b] ]

again you are being unreasonable

Facism or ethnic clensing are words to use in proper context, not just tossed around.

Quote[/b] ]

I wish for nothing else than peace israeli/palestinian conflict and I'm aware of the fact that both parties must give in on several subjects such as land etc.

There I agree with you.

[denoir 0]

What a vague (as in blah-blah) thing to say. What policy is that? Where else has such an "established policy" been enacted?

The policy of using the world guilty concience over the holocaust to further current agendas. It's been used since the foundation of the state of Israel. While it may have been ethically motivated in the 50's, it certainly isn't now.

Quote[/b] ]He said himself that at that point, after all the assurances given by the Swedish government that this would not happen, he was not going to take this passively.

He was given the assurances that the current mid-east conflict would not be a topic on the conference. And that is the only promise that the Swedish government could give him, without violating the constitution. Our government doesn't control and censor our artists and writers.

Quote[/b] ]

BTW, is this an established Swedish policy?

Yes.

Quote[/b] ]It take a left wing crazed fanatic European (like Denoir) to ignore it.

Perhaps, but it still makes me several orders of magnitude more objective. You see, I have no personal interest or agenda here. I have nothing to gain by Israel running over the Palestinians or vice versa.

Quote[/b] ]No. The concealing from the public that one or both of their deaths was caused by their being terrorists, and the equation of their deaths to those of the people in Maxim's restaurant is the affront to Israel and it should be to any decent human being. Seems like very few exist.

They were not equated in any way. It was mentioned merely as "deaths" while the deaths of the people in the restaurant was labeled "murder". The theme of the exhibit is the exploration of the motives of the suicide bomber. And from her perspective, it was very much irrelevant what the circumstances of her brother's death were as it in any way was a subjective experience to her.

The exhibition was entirely from Israeli point of view. Had it been from Palestinian it would have called her and her relatives for "martyrs" and the killed at the restaurant for "evil Zionists" or something. No matter how you try to twist it you can't make it out to be anti-Israeli and much less anti-semite.

What you can't stand is that the artist is putting a human face on the suicide bomber. It gives background, tries to explain how she was feeling. And this is unacceptable to you as she was "evil" and the people that died were "good". And through this black and white static vision you don't understand the message of the exhibit. The only thing you see is a monster given human traits. Obviously the artist must be anti-semitic, because monsters such as the suicide bombers are not human!

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]

She was called Snow White to illustrate the difference between what you would expect from a young woman with her whole life in front of her and the murder and sucide she comitted.

The point lies in the contrast of the innocence we are born with and the madness and cruelty some are capable of.

Yes but it's naive and distasteful of putting it in my view.

And used in other context with other faces sailing there would provoke outrage. But this somehow seems to be special case.

Quote[/b] ]No, because killing isn't civilized. It is bloody and disgusting and hiding it would be hiding the truth.

Maybe throw in a few hands, legs and heads floating there to make people even more provoked? As I said in AL and Vantaa bomber examples people just don't make such stuff about them because it has happened here and would provoke outrage.

But as I said PA-Israeli conflict seems to be special with nothing making you think twice which is proper.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]Maybe throw in a few hands, legs and heads floating there to make people even more provoked? As I said in AL and Vantaa bomber examples people just don't make such stuff about them because it has happened here and would provoke outrage.

I dont think so. I think it isnt done, because the acts were comitted by a mad man and there is no controversy. Everybody in Finland knows it was bad and evil and there isnt much to debate about that.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]What you can't stand is that the artist is putting a human face on the suicide bomber.

Exactly, I thought they were robotic dwares.

And with same logic you didn't get offended because the artwork didn't touch a terrorist act which happened in your area so you are unable to put yourself into victim's point of view.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]I dont think so. I think it isnt done, because the acts were comitted by a mad man and there is no controversy. Everybody in Finland knows it was bad and evil and there isnt much to debate about that.

You see no controversy in normal, quite talented student boy turning into a human bomb? You don't think that everybody in Israel knows the suicide bomber's act was bad and evil?

You don't think that everybody in Palestine knows the Israli man's shooting spree in mosque act was bad and evil?

Quote[/b] ]twist it you can't make it out to be anti-Israeli and much less anti-semite.

I didn't say it's anti-semite or anti-Israeli. Why can't you read my comments? What I'm pointing out is the potentially offensive nature of the work and showing out that an Israeli might have some reasons to get offended by that art. But we don't get offended because we don't live there and get touched by the conflict daily.

I Remember years back when Irish ambassador was giving us a lecture about Ireland in genera. When his lecture came to an end, somebody on the audience asked him how does he feel about conflict in Northern-Ireland. The man was like kicked in the nuts. Then he explained how his children had bodyguards etc. how he had to live under constant threat.

But just an example, people just don't sometimes put themselves to a position of those whose were slaughtered and see nothing offensive in seemingly innocent piece of art with blood mixed into it. I'm just saying that, hey, it's OK to be pissed about that art and yes, you can understand why an ambassador might get angry. And yes, In some cases some those offended have right to file a complaint.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]You see no controversy in normal, quite talented student boy turning into a human bomb?

Not the same kind of controversy, no.

Quote[/b] ] You don't think that everybody in Israel knows the suicide bomber's act was bad and evil?

No, I dont. Because to some its a glorious thing, something you get sent to heaven for. Thus good, not bad. And to others, it was an action simply by an evil terrorist, not a person with a history and a life.

Quote[/b] ]You don't think that everybody in Palestine knows the Israli man's shooting spree in mosque act was bad and evil?

Yes, but I am not sure every Israeli would agree with that.

[brgnorway 0]

db

[denoir 0]

Maybe throw in a few hands, legs and heads floating there to make people even more provoked?

If your intention is to get the visitors to feel sick, then sure why not? In this case I think however that body parts floating around would have distracted viewers from the message of the exhibit.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]I won't let this turn to flame fest.

Ok with me - I'll restrain myself from throwing out the baits.

Quote[/b] ]You didn't answer my question.

I don't have to. The point is not always what is said, but rather what is not said.

Quote[/b] ]Again, where do I put the guilt on Palestinians on this conflict?

We were just focused on art and suicide bombers, not PA, IDF or Israeli policies in this particular subject.

How can one possibly let out the circumstances that might explain WHY she became a terrorist?

Quote[/b] ]Facism or ethnic clensing are words to use in proper context, not just tossed around.

I agree with you - and I'm not "tossing" those words out!

Quote[/b] ]There I agree with you.

Good!

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Not the same kind of controversy, no.

So if such piece was put up on display, would you be surprised if it would spark outrage and would it be facist act from the government to ban it?

Quote[/b] ]And to others, it was an action simply by an evil terrorist, not a person with a history and a life.

So don't they have every right to be as offended and disgusted as we would be if this Vantaa bomber would have same kind of artwork done over here?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]You don't think that everybody in Palestine knows the Israli man's shooting spree in mosque act was bad and evil?

Yes, but I am not sure every Israeli would agree with that.

That was not my point. I meant, wouldn't Palestinians be offended by such art too like we would up here?

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]

I don't have to. The point is not always what is said, but rather what is not said.

Of course you don't have to. But I was asking for proof

when you said I've taken sides.

Quote[/b] ]

How can one possibly let out the circumstances that might explain WHY she became a terrorist?

By all means. But the artwork overall was distasteful and naive and method how her story was brought out was quite unsuccessfull, in my opinion.

It's also strange if people who don't like the artwork and how the message is conveyed is labelled anti-Palestinian and pro-Israeli.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]In this case I think however that body parts floating around would have distracted viewers from the message of the exhibit.

How about a bigger boat then? A fleet of boats? But seriously...

I have an impression that blood is sacred thing to orthodox jews (they always collect every piece and drop of human remains from bomb scene). So it that sense the work might be particulary powerful effect to some.

[Bernadotte 0]

The Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs has a PowerPoint presentation on the security fence titled "Security Fence:

What is the Security fence? What is its route? And more..."

Because of some of the pictures used in the presentation, I cannot give a direct link to it here on the forums.

Hey Blake!!

The 2 powerpoint presentations posted about the security fence by the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs have a total of 21 pages, and include about 17 images graphically depicting Israeli terrorist victims.

Why are you still weeping about a Swedish artist conveying his message with fake blood when the Israeli government makes gratuitous use of real blood to convey their message?