Missile and other stuff effectivness

[Leveler 0]

Ok I did a quick search on the UV, this is very interesting. Apparently it is only fond in later models. I didnt find anything on possible sources on helicopters so Ill take a wild guess and assume it concerns fixed wing aircraft as well where uv light could possibly come through the nozzles from inside the fan, or even the burning fuel, I am not sure. I dont know if this would apply strictly to helicopters, correct me if I am wrong.

Anyway, lasers seem to be all the latest joy in the field. I wonder if more powerful devices with an all around FOV are incorporated into fighters, this would make dogfighting and those fancy russian missiles obsolete.

[miles teg 1]

AT-16 Sagger?  The AT-3 is the Sagger.

However most definitely wire guided ATGM's are a very serious threat to helicopters especially the latest versions that are fast and highly maneuverable.  

As far as countermeasures go, one of the latest forms of IR countermeasures involves a system that fires a laser into the missile's IR sensors...I have no idea however if this is just fictional or whether it fires perhaps multiple beams of lasers to fry the IR sensors...kinda like a laser shotgun.

Nevertheless I imagine it would require either a small radar or a IR sensor itself to detect incoming heat seeking missiles.

With that said, US Army helicopters have some type of automatic system like that because you rarely see them spouting out flares every few seconds like you see with Russian helicopters flying over a battlefield in Chechnya.

But as mentioned below...if the missile is fired within its minimal range, the countermeasures may not have time to react.  That along with some RPG downings of helicopters in Iraq, have forced US Army and USMC helicopter pilots to change to tactics very similar to what the Russians use.  This means high speed strafing attacks and not hovering over a battlefield to fire weapons.  

With that said, even the best tactics will not prevent the occasional lucky shot and downing of a helicopter.

A medivac chopper for example slowing down in an approach to an LZ to extract wounded is a good example of a very vulnerable helicopter.

Scout helicopters like the OH-58 Kiowa's are also highly vulnerable to small arms fire which is probably one reason why quite a few of those have been shot down.  

The Apache, while heavily armored, has many weak spots and many of these have suffered heavy dammage, including several that either crashed or were forced to make a crash landing.   The Mi-24 Hind gunship actually has one of the best records of withstanding small arms fire and heavy machine gune fire.  It has been used in many many conflicts all over the world with enormous success.  Only high-end IR missiles like the Stinger are usually capable of shooting it down.  Before the Stinger's arrival in Afghanistan, the Mi-24 Hind had a reputation of being extremely difficult to shoot down with the 12.7mm DShK heavy machine gun.  Only the ZSU-23-2 had much success against the Hind and that was only assuming that you could hit it (as the ZSU-23-2 is not radar targetted) before the gunship killed you.   One of the tactics that evolved to deal with AA gun emplacements is the concept of the two-gunship hunter/killer teams.  

Essentially it is much like Wild Weasel tactics in which one gunship acts as the bait and trolls for fire.   The second gunship, upon seeing an AA site engage the lead gunship, will attack that AA site usually destroying it before the AA gunner can adjust his fire to lead his target and get his rounds to impact upon the fast moving gunship that is also likely taking other evasive action.

Now today, modern Russian Mi-24 Hinds have a wide range of IR suppressors, IR jammers, and new generations of flare launchers that likely would be effective even against Stingers.

So while still a threat, I believe that the threat from most common MANPADs has been diminished considerably.

Likewise, with correct tactics, the threat from RPG fire is minimal accept in the circumstances where a helicopter is forced to fly slowly such as during an insertion or extraction in a hot or unprotected landing zone.

For this reason, US Army soldiers give helicopter pilots enormous respect because they know that these pilots are usually always willing to risk their lives to pull them out of harms way or rush them to a hospital if they are wounded.  

They also are amazing pilots that believe it or not, fly even more amazingly then any hollywood movie has shown.  I haven't seen USMC helicopter pilots fly much, but I've seen US Army helicopter pilots do things that would make your jaw drop...stuff like flying IN BETWEEN trees in a thick forest, flying under powerlines, flying in super tight formations at tree-top levels, ect...  

They are just amazing.  I had the priveledge of flying in a UH-60 blackhawk low level training flight at Ft. Hood and I will never forget that experience.

What I expect will happen in the future is that Iraqi insurgents may seek to get their hands on wire guided ATGM's that are MUCH more difficult to jam.  However even these can be jammed with specific types of flares that confuse the SACLOS systems of most wire guided ATGM's that have sensors that detect the position of the missile and adjust the missile's guidance to fly toward the target that the gunner's sight is focused on.

However there may be newer ATGM's like the Kornet that may use newer SACLOS guidance systems or multiple guidance systems that are more difficult to jam. Likewise laser guided ATGM/AA missiles are very deadly and difficult to jam. They are not however impossible to jam. But with such things as rapidly shifting laser frequencies or encoded modulation of the laser's frequencies, it may be a much more difficult threat to counter.

The Israeli made Spike is one example of a next-generation ATGM that is deadly to helicopters and tanks alike and that if I remember correctly, uses a combination of systems to attain a high hit probability in a heavy counter-measure enviornment.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Jinef 2]

Sagger/Kornet whatever... forgot my codenames there.

I think the standard of pilot varies from branch to branch. Here, the last thing the grunts want to know is that they are being picked up by a RAF heli, they always want the army guys to pick them up as the army guys know what it's like to be on the ground and understand the environment more.