USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[billybob2002 0]

And yes, religion is part of our cultural heritage wherever you are in the world. I'm not saying you should ignore or eliminate that (like abolishing traditions like Christmas). What we have in today's America goes way beyond that. Some 50% of Americans believe that Jesus will return within their lifetime (i.e end of the world, Armageddon). And they see it as a positive thing! Not a comforting thought considering how many strategic nuclear weapons America has.

Even with if you ignore the damage done, it is still incomprehensible that grown men and women actually believe that rubbish. It's the same way you might think of a society where it is widely believed that doing a rain dance will make it rain. It has no place in a rational civilized society.

The United States is simply an outliner has you put it. Religion has always been there as the United States evolved into a "rational" civilized society. Just look at American history to see religion is there and playing a part at various times for good and bad. It is simply apart of our culture. The problem is that it is just difficult to explain why to you.

I cannot personally answer that question though.

This was nothing more than a pre-emptive strike at the "religion makes people do good" argument.

Oh.

These are the factors that combined during the last election to unseat the NeoConMen. In fact several votes on religious issues were put, and in the vast majority of cases the US voters voted against the NeoConMen contrived wedge issue views on things as diverse as Rove v Wade and Gay marriage. They even did this in what used to be considered Red States.

Actually, US voters voted against gay marriage in various states that had the issue on the ballot. Only one state, Arizona, rejected an amendment that would had defined marriage has between only a man and woman. Other states passed amendments that banned gay marriage. Only one state, South Dakota, had an abortion issue on its ballot.

The Democrats won that election because the people were truly, in my opinion, angry with the Republican Party.

Without religion, nutjobs would have a harder time fooling others into dying for a silly cause...

*cough*

Sieg Heil!

Sent him/her to the Gulags!

*cough*

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]A number of other CAIR officials have been charged with, and some convicted of, offenses related to the support of Islamist terrorism.

In December, 2001, Rabih Haddad, a CAIR fundraiser, was charged and deported from the United States because he was the executive director and co-founder of Global Relief Foundation, a terrorist front organization that for financing Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

oohh..where should I start....

Was the conviction based on him or the group? There is a BIG difference between a charge against a group and against a person.

Quote[/b] ]On December 18, 2002, Ghassan Elashi, a founding board member of CAIR-Texas and a co-founder of the Holy Land Foundation, was arrested by the FBI on charges of having ties with front groups that fund Islamic terrorism. In 2005, Elashi and two of his brothers were convicted on 21 counts of federal terrorism charges related to funding Hamas and the illegal export of electronics equipment to U.S. State Department-designated state sponsors of terrorism. Elashi was sentenced on Oct 13 2006 to 7 years in prison for doing business with a terrorist,( funnelling money to Hamas throughout the the past 10 years.)

Was CAIR found guilty? nope. it was Elashi and his two brothers.

Quote[/b] ]According to the Washington Times, In January 2003, CAIR's director of community relations and founder of the Islamic Assembly of North America, Bassem Khafagi, was arrested by the FBI on charges of having ties to front groups that fund Islamist terrorism. Khafagi pleaded guilty to charges of visa and bank fraud, and agreed to be deported to Egypt. The Washington Times however went on to point out that CAIR could not be categorically held responsible for the independent actions of one of its members, and commended it for its condemnation of extremism and terrorism, while at the same time suggesting that "unsettling connections between certain CAIR officials and extremist groups" continued to exist and that CAIR's defense of high-ranking members convicted of terrorism amounted to a "dishonest campaign to create the sense of a widespread inquisition against Muslims and Arabs in America that simply doesn't exist."

Again, same point. But I guess simply copying and pasting is a very stressful situation to analyze such simple things

Quote[/b] ]In August 2003, CAIR's former civil-rights coordinator, Randall "Ismail" Royer, along with ten other men known as the "Virginia jihad group" were indicted on 41 counts, including training and participating in jihad activities overseas. The group had connections with Lashkar-e-Taiba and five of them possessed AK-47-style rifles and hundreds of rounds of ammunition. Four of the men plead guilty while the other seven were charged with 32 new counts, including conspiring to provide material support to al Qaeda and to the Taliban. He pleaded guilty and is now serving 20 years in federal prison.

So was CAIR found guilty?

Quote[/b] ]Critics have also taken aim at CAIR's fundraising and sources of funds. Shortly after the 9/11 attacks, CAIR's website solicited donations for what it called the "NY/DC Emergency Relief Fund." However, clicking on the donation link led to a website for donations to the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development (HLF), a charity whose assets were later frozen and confiscated by the United States Department of the Treasury because, according to United States Secretary of the Treasury Paul O'Neill, HLF "masquerade[d] as a charity, while its primary purpose [was] to fund Hamas." The HLF also had funded the creation of CAIR.

WHERE IS INDICTMENT? Oh dear god this is such an obvious case! Where is indictment? Gitmo reservations?

Quote[/b] ]CAIR even includes at least one person associated with terrorism in its own ranks. On Feb. 2, 1995, U.S. Attorney Mary Jo White named Siraj Wahhaj as one of the "unindicted persons who may be alleged as co-conspirators" in the attempt to blow up New York City monuments. Yet CAIR deems him "one of the most respected Muslim leaders in America" and includes him on its advisory board.

There is a world of difference between being a terrorist and "maybe alledged as".

Quote[/b] ]For these and other reasons, the FBI's former chief of counterterrorism, Steven Pomerantz, concludes that "CAIR, its leaders and its activities effectively give aid to international terrorist groups."

Again, then why the heck did the federal agent attend it to begin with?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Considering that accusation of CAIR is on shaky proofs and some posts by nemesis6 himself, it is very well waranted that it is xenophobic knee-jerk anti-Islamist argument...Ad hominem argument is argument that attacks the person, not the subject.

Yes, and calling someone's argument "xenophobic" directly attacks the person in question. Unless you really want to play complex games of semantics, calling someone's arguments/beliefs "xenophobic" is tantamount to calling that person a "xenophobe" (AFAIK that's not a compliment).

Nope I said xenophobic ideas. Having a relations to such idea may or may not mean that person is xenophobic. You are trying to lump all into one. I guess if someone wear's a turban he is a terrorist according to your logic. KKK has racist ideas, but that is 1st amendment issue, and unless they actually engage in illegal activity, that's what they are. But I guess thought patrol is waranted, and having idea is being guilty.

Just in case you forgot my comment was

Quote[/b] ]so is he supposed to blindly follow narrow minded xenophobic ideas of conservatives?

Re read the sentence.

"xenophobic ideas of conservatives"

Did I say nemesis6's idea? Last time I mentioned his name and the above phrase was to show that such use was prevalent.

[EiZei 0]

*cough*

Sieg Heil!

Sent him/her to the Gulags!

*cough*

At the point when chairman Mao tells you planting twice the amount of seeds in your field will double the harvest and you dont doubt his word for a second we might be wandering into the domain of irrational beliefs as well.

[Garcia 0]

Without religion, nutjobs would have a harder time fooling others into dying for a silly cause...

*cough*

Sieg Heil!

Sent him/her to the Gulags!

*cough*

I never said that without religion you wouldn't have nutjobs managing to brainwash others. Religion can, however, make the job much easier.

[Sophion-Black 0]

Quote[/b] ]It is difficult to comprehend, that ancient superstition and rituals. "In God we Trust", "God bless America" and a million other examples. My God (pun intended), have civilized nations not grown out of that ridiculous rubbish?

And what god would that be? "god of being a total ass hole to other religions?"

Quote[/b] ]What we have in today's America goes way beyond that. Some 50% of Americans believe that Jesus will return within their lifetime (i.e end of the world, Armageddon). And they see it as a positive thing! Not a comforting thought considering how many strategic nuclear weapons America has.

It's more than that. It's a positive thing because of what follows a New Kingdom of God, Peace, and Prosperity. Good stuff, but well earned.

Quote[/b] ]Even with if you ignore the damage done, it is still incomprehensible that grown men and women actually believe that rubbish. It's the same way you might think of a society where it is widely believed that doing a rain dance will make it rain. It has no place in a rational civilized society.

Let me give you an open warning, you call anyone's religion rubbish and you WILL receive strong criticism, curses, and even threats. This is not a place to bash religion. Posting your ignorant, insensitive views will only gather men to hate you

Quote[/b] ]I'm stabbing in the dark here, but I assume...

Let me review: watch doing that, the dark may shoot back.

Quote[/b] ]Actually, I'm an anti-theist, not just atheist. I'm actively considering religion to be harmful.

hyp·o·crite [hip-uh-krit] noun - 1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.  

2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

I'm starting to think not having a religion is harmful, look at what it has done to you! you attack every ones culture! you ignorantly blast at their religion! You offend men of every language, tribe, and nation! But you seem impervious to what fate you will receive from doing it! Which right now looks like your death will be by the hand of vengeful man you have criticised.

Quote[/b] ]You are an atheist as well, in regards to say Hindu gods, ancient Greek gods, Sumerian gods, Babylonian gods etc etc You don't believe in any of those gods (and they are very different from the Christian god). You don't believe in any of the thousands of gods that have been worshiped throughout history, except for one. The difference between you and a consistent atheist is that he or she believes in just one less god - which is a very small percentage of difference.

a·the·ist [ey-thee-ist] noun - a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Quote[/b] ]Very large parts of europe are atheists, and many people share his view. And honestly Billybob, if you don't understand why people view USA as a uberreligious nation, you should just see what kind of americans that speak on the news...the sane part of USA should really speak up a bit.

The United States is a nation "Under God" and is fully aware and supportive of "in God we trust." For a nation that is a huge part of the International stage, do you think religion has something to do with it? I truly believe America is blessed by the Almighty God. And believe His blessing directly contributes to the US not loosing a war or being oppressed. The US has prospered for more than 200 years. I'll even go further and say that God's blessing has also defeated the Soviet Union (an atheist state). I believe He truly is on our side.

Explain it as you feel, but let me say this in advance: I believe in God. I may call others sad for not having faith. And you may say I'm sad for having it. But the greatest fact will remain: you will try to get me to be disloyal to my faith, and I to regain yours. I do not feel that my feet will shake off this rock, so your just going to have to give up.

*steps off soapbox*

Quote[/b] ]WHERE IS INDICTMENT? Oh dear god this is such an obvious case! Where is indictment? Gitmo reservations?

You know, this is what i have been saying about Bush... But its just that people think its obvious.

[Garcia 0]

I truly believe America is blessed by the Almighty God. And believe His blessing directly contributes to the US not loosing a war or being oppressed.

So do you consider Vietnam and Katrina to be punishment from god?

Quote[/b] ]I believe He truly is on our side.

Problem is that everyone belives that.

[Sophion-Black 0]

Quote[/b] ]So do you consider Vietnam and Katrina to be punishment from god?

Tests of our faith. Vietnam is asking us for help, and Katrina is an event that brought Americans closer.

Quote[/b] ]Problem is that everyone belives that.

It's not a problem then, its a common belief. Look, I can go into a big theological debate for days on this. But this thread isn't about that, so lets move on. On to CAIR!

I thought CAIR stood for Council of American-Islamic Relations. If they were smart they would check up on who they are letting in. Because they are representing islam. common sense would tell me to look at the applicants.

From reading this, it kinda makes you wonder what is realy going on in CAIR.

[billybob2002 0]

Without religion, nutjobs would have a harder time fooling others into dying for a silly cause...

*cough*

Sieg Heil!

Sent him/her to the Gulags!

*cough*

I never said that without religion you wouldn't have nutjobs managing to brainwash others. Religion can, however, make the job much easier.

This religious talk is seriously off-topic for this thread. However, you said, "without religion, nutjobs would have a harder time fooling others into dying for a silly cause" and I gave major examples, or "the" examples in which people were fooled easily for a silly cause (i.e., Nazism) without religion in the picture. A depression can also make the job much easier too.

@EiZei: Damn.

[Garcia 0]

This religious talk is seriously off-topic for this thread.

Indeed, therefor I guess this will be my last words on this matter. Besides, there's not much point in discussing religion anyway, not very often people with different religious belifs will come to an agreement...

Quote[/b] ]However, you said, "without religion, nutjobs would have a harder time fooling others into dying for a silly cause" and I gave major examples, or "the" examples in which people were fooled easily for a silly cause (i.e., Nazism) without religion in the picture. A depression can also make the job much easier too.

Of course there's other reasons too...but, you don't can't ignore deaths by cancer simply because you got AIDS and other bad things killing too...

To be honest, I do share Denoir view that religion do more harm to the society than it does good. For a single person religion may bring mostly good things, as they find might find the thought of no meaning to life and no afterlife etc quite depressing. And I guess people find comfort in their religion when they have a hard time. But for the society I don't feel religion brings too much good. But as long as nobody tries to force their religious crap on me and respect my choice to not belive, I respect them and accept their belifs...the problem with religon arise when people, because of religion don't accept or respect other people (i.e like muslims wanting to kill others because their infidels, christians stigmatizing people for being gay etc)...

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ] I truly believe America is blessed by the Almighty God. And believe His blessing directly contributes to the US not loosing a war or being oppressed. The US has prospered for more than 200 years. I'll even go further and say that God's blessing has also defeated the Soviet Union (an atheist state). I believe He truly is on our side.

Ok...

[Donnervogel 0]

Whats the country that has a gun in each house? I'm thinking its the Swiss but I may have it confused with another country.

It is Switzerland. But it's not exactly every house but most Soldiers (we have mandatory military service) get to take their rifle at home witch results in a high gun/per citizen rate. But that's were the similarities with the US end so you don't really want to use it as an example.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Let me get this straight Sophion-Black.

Do you believe god punished the Republicans and the NeoConMen causing them to loose the election because George Bush Junior, George Bush Senior, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Karl Rove all go to Bohemian Grove and worship a graven image of an owl, have a mock human sacrifice and dance around with flaming crosses in hooded robes like a bad Hollywood B movie?

Kind Regards Walker

[denoir 0]

It's more than that. It's a positive thing because of what follows a New Kingdom of God, Peace, and Prosperity. Good stuff, but well earned.

My point exactly. You are thinking of a destruction of the world as a positive thing. I wouldn't mind terribly such auto-destructive tendencies and would be the first to posthumously give you a Darwin Award. The problem is that you'd like to destroy everybody, not just yourself.

Quote[/b] ]Let me give you an open warning, you call anyone's religion rubbish and you WILL receive strong criticism, curses, and even threats. This is not a place to bash religion. Posting your ignorant, insensitive views will only gather men to hate you

Yes, that is the religious attitude. I'm sorry however since I'm not buying into your superstition, I don't play by those rules. Religion is a belief, an opinion, no different from a political opinion and is to be discussed. Saying that religion is rubbish is no different from saying that a political opinion is rubbish.

Is your belief so weak that you are so afraid of somebody questioning it? Of course it is. It is quite humorous how terrified many religious people are of scrutiny of their beliefs.

As for it having a place in this thread - since we've firmly established that politics and religion are inseparable in America, I would say it very much has.

Quote[/b] ]I'm starting to think not having a religion is harmful, look at what it has done to you!

What, a rational, moral being?

Quote[/b] ]you attack every ones culture! you ignorantly blast at their religion!

I don't need a degree in fairyology to know that fairies don't exist and that people who believe in them are delusional. It's not from a position of ignorance but a position from the obvious. Your irrational hostility stems from the fact that you were indoctrinated as a child. You accepted it as it came from figures of authority (parents, priests) and have it therefor deeply rooted. You do however also have a rational mind that subconsciously understands that there's something wrong there. The religious core is however stronger and you project your confusion by resorting to hostility rather than to civilized debate.

That's a broad problem in religious societies - the children are brain washed, which in my opinion is a form of abuse.

Quote[/b] ]

But you seem impervious to what fate you will receive from doing it! Which right now looks like your death will be by the hand of vengeful man you have criticised.

If I lived in Afghanistan, then sure, I would be stoned to death for my blasphemous statements. Fortunately for me, I live in secular Sweden where we stopped doing that centuries ago. Incidentally, I belong to the majority group, the atheists, and you might be surprised, but we don't stone religious people either.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]You are an atheist as well, in regards to say Hindu gods, ancient Greek gods, Sumerian gods, Babylonian gods etc etc You don't believe in any of those gods (and they are very different from the Christian god). You don't believe in any of the thousands of gods that have been worshiped throughout history, except for one. The difference between you and a consistent atheist is that he or she believes in just one less god - which is a very small percentage of difference.

a·the·ist [ey-thee-ist] noun - a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Exactly, you don't believe in for instance the Hindu gods.

Quote[/b] ]I truly believe America is blessed by the Almighty God. And believe His blessing directly contributes to the US not loosing a war or being oppressed.

Vietnam? Slavery?

Quote[/b] ]

I'll even go further and say that God's blessing has also defeated the Soviet Union (an atheist state). I believe He truly is on our side.

No, no. It was Saranya testing the faith of the Russians and he was on the side of North Vietnam.

Quote[/b] ]

But the greatest fact will remain: you will try to get me to be disloyal to my faith, and I to regain yours. I do not feel that my feet will shake off this rock, so your just going to have to give up.

No, I'm not trying to get you to be disloyal to your faith. I have no chance of doing that and to be honest, really no interest either. What I can hope for you to get out of this discussion (unlikely) is that you think about your assumptions in a broader context. If you learn that across the oceans there are some strange lands that some call "Ur-op" where people have no gods. And what is especially strange is that they are quite a prosperous, peaceful and open society.

A look outside from beneath your burkha might do you some good and that goes for a significant portion of the US population (a minority perhaps, but a large one).

As for you making me regain my religious faith, that would be a tad difficult since I've never been religious. I had the fortune of growing up in a part of the world where children are not indoctrinated. An as an adult I've had as much need for a belief in god as I have for a belief in fairies and witches.

If you want me to start believing in god(s), it's quite simple: provide me with repeatable, measurable empirical evidence. Something that stands up to scrutiny like say the theory of gravity or quantum mechanics. If you could do that, every scientist in the world would thank you as you would have taught us a new fact about the world. However as things are, religions make all sort of claims of real-world interactions while they have never been able to provide any evidence that stands up to scrutiny. Ultimately, the burden of proof is on you as the god theory is yours. Atheism is the neutral position until, if ever, proven wrong.

The same way if I believe that Santa Claus exists, it is my problem to prove it. It would not be reasonable to be upset because you don't share that belief without me providing any evidence of it.

Anyway, my interest here is not really debating religion itself, but discussing the role of religion in US society and politics and to discuss the positive/negative effects of it.

[scary 0]

But you seem impervious to what fate you will receive from doing it! Which right now looks like your death will be by the hand of vengeful man you have criticised.

I don't know if this was meant to be obscure, but as best I can tell it is either infering that Denoir is soon to be killed by a besmirched Priest or will be suffering a fate of Hell and damnation. As the former is a somewhat unlikely occurence and Hell and damnation isn't much of a threat to someone that doesn't believe in Hell and damnation, perhaps you could elucidate.

Quote[/b] ]The United States is a nation "Under God" and is fully aware and supportive of "in God we trust." For a nation that is a huge part of the International stage, do you think religion has something to do with it? I truly believe America is blessed by the Almighty God.

According to all relevant literature the God you refer to has never interacted with anyone or anything outside of the Middle East. What makes you think that the 300m people in the US are now more important than the other 6Bn people in the world? What elevates US citizens above all others?

Quote[/b] ]And believe His blessing directly contributes to the US not loosing a war or being oppressed. The US has prospered for more than 200 years. I'll even go further and say that God's blessing has also defeated the Soviet Union (an atheist state). I believe He truly is on our side.

US not losing a war? What was Vietnam? The US didn't do too well in Somalia either. Try making a list of all the wars the US has fought and won on its own. You're about to lose in Iraq and have abandoned most of Afghanistan for everyone else to deal with. The US military record is rather poor.

I doubt the non-white population would agree with you about not being oppressed. It was only forty years ago that the US was under apartheid. Ask some of the black WWII veterans about the difference in treatment they recieved from the British than from other Americans.

200 years of prosperity is hardly anything to boast about. There are tortoises nearly as old. It's also not true anyway, 60 years is closer.

No one defeated the Soviet Union, it collapsed due to the costs of the space and arms races while simultaneously having to administer a huge land mass with a comparitively small population. And they were only an enemy because people wanted them to be.

Quote[/b] ]Explain it as you feel, but let me say this in advance: I believe in God. I may call others sad for not having faith. And you may say I'm sad for having it. But the greatest fact will remain: you will try to get me to be disloyal to my faith, and I to regain yours. I do not feel that my feet will shake off this rock, so your just going to have to give up.

There is nothing wrong with you having a religion and no one is trying to deny you that right. The problem is when a country and government have a religion and when a prospective politician's religion is a voting issue. What chance is there of a Shawnee that mentions Kokumthena of getting anywhere in US politics? In reality there is virtually no chance of anyone becoming US President unless they at least appear to be practicing Christians. And I wonder for how many of them it has only been an appearance.

Religion isn't required for leadership of a country, nor is it required for morals. Who is more moral, the atheist Swede that gives money for tsunami victims because they believe it is the right thing to do, or the Christian American that gives money to tsunami victims because they believe it will give them a better afterlife?

You are proving other peoples' point of how overly religious the US is compared to Europe when you say you are trying to get people to regain their faith. Most Europeans will point and laugh at anyone that says such things.

[billybob2002 0]

No one defeated the Soviet Union, it collapsed due to the costs of the space and arms races while simultaneously having to administer a huge land mass with a comparitively small population. And they were only an enemy because people wanted them to be.

Who was the opposing faction in the arms race and space race? The Soviet Union collapsed in part because of the United States/Western World. Oh, I'm not saying that the United States/Western World single handedly defeated the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union's actions (i.e. the Iron Curtain) and its ideology made that country our "enemy."

The problem is when a country and government have a religion and when a prospective politician's religion is a voting issue. What chance is there of a Shawnee that mentions Kokumthena of getting anywhere in US politics? In reality there is virtually no chance of anyone becoming US President unless they at least appear to be practicing Christians. And I wonder for how many of them it has only been an appearance.

Religion is a preference like race, at times, in elections. A white person becoming the Mayor of DC is very slim because, simply, he is not black. There are likely places in the South that a black candidate would not receive votes because just of his/her color.

The Shawnee simply has to look for a place in which religion is not a election issue or find a place in which his religion is a election issue that would help him/her. Joseph Lieberman, an orthodox Jew, is a Senator from Connecticut. The majority of Nutmeggers, the people living in Connecticut, are Christian (majority Protestant). Was religion a senatorial election issue in Connecticut? No.

Remember, people tend to vote on preference. Religion can be used to show how similar the candidate is to the voters. Is religion used as a election issue in every election in America? No.

[Baff2 0]

The Soviet Union's actions (i.e. the Iron Curtain) and its ideology made that country our "enemy."

And in two world wars, theirs actions and ideology made them our greatest allies.

[billybob2002 0]

The Soviet Union's actions (i.e. the Iron Curtain) and its ideology made that country our "enemy."

And in two world wars, theirs actions and ideology made them our greatest allies.

I'm confused by your post. Are you American? I will not respond until you explain that post.

[Sophion-Black 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]But you seem impervious to what fate you will receive from doing it! Which right now looks like your death will be by the hand of vengeful man you have criticised.

I don't know if this was meant to be obscure, but as best I can tell it is either infering that Denoir is soon to be killed by a besmirched Priest or will be suffering a fate of Hell and damnation. As the former is a somewhat unlikely occurence and Hell and damnation isn't much of a threat to someone that doesn't believe in Hell and damnation, perhaps you could elucidate.

A man will kill you because you ticked him off.

Quote[/b] ]US not losing a war? What was Vietnam? The US didn't do too well in Somalia either.

one a "Police Action," and the other was a battle, not a war. which BTW was successful.

Quote[/b] ]You're about to lose in Iraq and have abandoned most of Afghanistan for everyone else to deal with.

Loose? What Democratic bull shit have you been listening to? Iraq has been progressing quite a bit. Including two (maybe three) provences under the ISF. Afhganistan was a place that was a launching point for al Queda. Responceible for attacks abraud NATO member states. it's not just the US's problem there bud, its an international problem.

Quote[/b] ]The US military record is rather poor.

Pequot War (1637) - Victory

King Philip's War (1675) - Victory

Queen Anne's War (1702–1713) - Victory

French and Indian War (1754–1763) - Victory

War of Independence (1775–1783) - Victory

Northwest Indian War (1785–1795) - Victory

Quasi-War (1798–1800) - Victory

Barbary Wars (1801-1815) - Victory

Tecumseh's War (1811) - Victory

Creek War (1813–1814) - Victory

Peoria War (1813) - Victory

War of 1812 - Draw (with the British Empire)

Seminole Wars (1817-1858) - Victory

Black Hawk War (1832) - Victory

Mexican–American War (1846–1848) - Victory

Utah War (1857-1858) - Victory

Spanish-American War (1898) - Victory

The Philippine-American War (1898–1913) - Victory

Banana Wars (1898-1934) - Victories

World War I (1917-1918) - Victory

World War II (1941-1945) - Victory

Korean War (1950-  ) - Ongoing

Vietnam War (1959-1975) - Military Victory, Political Loss

Operation Eagle Claw (1980) - Failure

Grenada (1983) - Victory

Beirut (1983) - Military Victory, Political Loss

Panama (1989-1990) - Victory

Gulf War (1990–1991) - Military Victory, Political Loss

Battle of Mogadishu (1991) - Military Victory, Political Loss

Kosovo War (1996-1999) - Victory

Afghanistan (2001- ) - Ongoing (Victory)

Philippines (2002- ) - Ongoing (Victory)

Liberia (2003) - Peaceful Victory

Iraq (2003- ) - Ongoing (Victory)

That brings the total to:

27 wins (3 ongoing), 1 draw (4 political losses), and 0 losses

Quote[/b] ]No one defeated the Soviet Union, it collapsed due to the costs of the space and arms races while simultaneously having to administer a huge land mass with a comparitively small population.

Who made the SU do that? Could it be... the US!

Quote[/b] ]You are proving other peoples' point of how overly religious the US is compared to Europe when you say you are trying to get people to regain their faith.

And this would be a good thing or a bad thing?

Quote[/b] ]And in two world wars, theirs actions and ideology made them our greatest allies.

Simply not true, they were our allies because they were being attacked by the same people. NO ONE trusted the soviets!

Quote[/b] ]What, a rational, moral being?

try an aggressive jack#$% that has no tolerance to other faiths.

Quote[/b] ]I don't need a degree in fairyology to know that fairies don't exist and that people who believe in them are delusional.

seriously, get off it. I'm not here to have my God compared to a fairy.

[Baff2 0]

The Soviet Union collapsed because it could. Nato collapsed at the same time.

The Soviet Union and NATO alike could not sustain their level of military spending. Having placed America in more foreign debt than at any other time in it's history with his spending on aircraft carriers and a nuclear submarines, Reagan, Thatcher and Gorbachov negotiated world wide disarmament.

By 1982 NATO was no longer answering it's mutual defence pact.

By the early 1990's the level of threat that we all presented to eachother allowed us all to withdraw from central Europe.

You are a victim of propaganda if you were thinking any strategic or financial collapse wasn't mutual on all sides.

[j w 0]

The Soviet Union's actions (i.e. the Iron Curtain) and its ideology made that country our "enemy."

The "Iron Curtain" splitted western europe from eastern europe, it wasn't something connected to soviet actions.

Or am I completely out fishing?

But going on from your statement, the soviets and the western world was already 'enemies' before the curtain. Sort of

[Baff2 0]

The Soviet Union's actions (i.e. the Iron Curtain) and its ideology made that country our "enemy."

And in two world wars, theirs actions and ideology made them our greatest allies.

I'm confused by your post. Are you American? I will not respond until you explain that post.

It's pretty self explanatory.

During WW1 and WW2 in particular, Russia and the Soviet Union were our greatest allies.

We fought with them against Germany and Japan.

We supplied them with weapons in their hour of need.

They gave us half of Berlin in tribute.

We liberated Korea together.

Surely you have heard of them? They had the really massive unstoppable army 50 times the size of ours that attacked on the other front.

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]But you seem impervious to what fate you will receive from doing it! Which right now looks like your death will be by the hand of vengeful man you have criticised.

I don't know if this was meant to be obscure, but as best I can tell it is either infering that Denoir is soon to be killed by a besmirched Priest or will be suffering a fate of Hell and damnation. As the former is a somewhat unlikely occurence and Hell and damnation isn't much of a threat to someone that doesn't believe in Hell and damnation, perhaps you could elucidate.

A man will kill you because you ticked him off.

If a person feels the need to kill someone, and actually does it, because someone criticized his god, he can't be strong in his belief, and therefor he shouldn't feel the need to kill anyone, because he shouldn't be that pissed of by someone criticizing something he doesn't belive that much in anyway...but somehow religious people keep giving a shit about the "Thou shalt not kill" and such...

Quote[/b] ]Loose? What Democratic bull shit have you been listening to? Iraq has been progressing quite a bit. Including two (maybe three) provences under the ISF.

What BS have you been listening to? Everyone with half an eye and a little bit of information can see that USA is not winning in Iraq. If you consider sending a country on its way to a civil war, increasing the death rate horribly and making the country somewhat lawless a victory...

Quote[/b] ]Vietnam War (1959-1975) - Military Victory, Political Loss

No wonder you look so bright on Iraq and the rest of US' military record, if you actually consider Vietnam to be a victory at all...

Quote[/b] ]And this would be a good thing or a bad thing?

Bad thing

Quote[/b] ]try an aggressive jack#$% that has no tolerance to other faiths.

It's a wild guess since I don't know him personally, but I would say it's highly likely that he is more tolerant than most religious people. The only reason you don't find him tolerant is because he is discussing religion, and he is voicing his opinions. In a discussion that is what people do. It wouldn't be much of a discussion if he had to choose his words so gently...

[billybob2002 0]

The Soviet Union's actions (i.e. the Iron Curtain) and its ideology made that country our "enemy."

The "Iron Curtain" splitted western europe from eastern europe, it wasn't something connected to soviet actions.

Or am I completely out fishing?

But going on from your statement, the soviets and the western world was already 'enemies' before the curtain. Sort of

Quote[/b] ]From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic an "iron curtain" has descended across the Continent. Behind that line lie all the capitals of the ancient states of Central and Eastern Europe. Warsaw, Berlin, Prague, Vienna, Budapest, Belgrade, Bucharest and Sofia; all these famous cities and the populations around them lie in what I must call the Soviet sphere, and all are subject, in one form or another, not only to Soviet influence but to a very high and in some cases increasing measure of control from Moscow.

That goes against the agreement that the Western Allies had with the Soviet Union.

During WW1 and WW2 in particular, Russia and the Soviet Union were our greatest allies.

World War 1: The United States was barely in the war when the Communist revolution happened. As you know, Bolshevist Russia pulled out World War 1. I suggest you look up the North Russia campaign (1918-1919).

World War 2: The Western-Soviet alliance was more a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" deal. The Allies and the Soviets had mutual enemies and it was best to work together. I would not say they were the United States' greatest ally.

We supplied them with weapons in their hour of need.

Yeah, we supplied them because the Soviets tied up the bulk of the Nazi Germany military and they were considered a ally. The first part was more important than the second part.

The United States supplied many nations during the war.

They gave us half of Berlin in tribute

No, according to the Potsdam Agreement, West Berlin was to be under Allied control.

The Soviet Union collapsed because it could. Nato collapsed at the same time.

The Soviet Union and NATO alike could not sustain their level of military spending. Having placed America in more foreign debt than at any other time in it's history with his spending on aircraft carriers and a nuclear submarines, Reagan, Thatcher and Gorbachov negotiated world wide disarmament.

By 1982 NATO was no longer answering it's mutual defence pact.

By the early 1990's the level of threat that we all presented to eachother allowed us all to withdraw from central Europe.

You are a victim of propaganda if you were thinking any strategic or financial collapse wasn't mutual on all sides.

What? Post the facts that made you come to that conclusion.

Oh, off-topic....

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Iraq has been progressing quite a bit. Including two (maybe three) provences under the ISF.

Pleeeeeeeeeease update your facts man !

[walker 0]

Hi all

I find it a bit strange and very disturbing that George Bush Junior's flight to Jordan has been so well telegraphed to potential terrorists.

When Cheney went Saudi Arabia no one knew till he was there.

I do not want to see Air Force one take an AA missile up the backside.

The idea of Cheney as President  

The sooner Cheney gets indited the better; he is too creepy for words.

A worried walker