The Iraq thread 4

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]I think it is a fair comparison if TBA and others continue to have to compare this conflict to WW2 and Saddam to Hitler.

I cannot wait for Fallujah to be bombed flat! I cannot wait for the insur...oops...I mean resistance to be lined up and shot execution-style.

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

I think it is a fair comparison if TBA and others continue to have to compare this conflict to WW2 and Saddam to Hitler.  

I cannot wait for Fallujah to be bombed flat! I cannot wait for the insur...oops...I mean resistance to be lined up and shot execution-style.

Being as that you complain so much about people flame-baiting. That seems a bit hypocritical you'd say something like that given the direction of this discussion. Even if it's for rhetorical purposes.

Either way. I think it's an awful point of view.

It's opinions like these that drive individuals to fight those who are occupying their country. Because granted there are probably some out there who genuinely think that way.

Hell, if it was my country being invaded. I'd be doing my part too.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Being as that you complain so much about people flame-baiting. That seems a bit hypocritical you'd say something like that given the direction of this discussion. Even if it's for rhetorical purposes.

Either way. I think it's an awful point of view.

Flamebaiting, no. That is how them nazis took care of things. I'm not baiting nobody.

The coalition is fighting with one hand behind it's back dealing with the insurgency because of internation community and their self-conscious.

[Baphomet 0]

You make the bed you lie in.

That's all I can say.

[m21man 0]

The Assault On Fallujah Has Begun

Quote[/b] ]

NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq (AP) - U.S. forces stormed into western districts of Fallujah early Monday, seizing the main city hospital and securing two key bridges over the Euphrates river in what appeared to be the first stage of the long-expected assault on the insurgent stronghold.

An AC-130 gunship raked the city with 40 mm cannon fire as explosions from U.S. artillery lit up the night sky. Intermittent artillery fire blasted southern neighborhoods of Fallujah, and orange fireballs from high explosive airbursts could be seen above the rooftops.

U.S. officials said the toughest fight was yet to come - when American forces enter the main part of the city on the east bank of the river, including the Jolan neighborhood where insurgent defenses are believed the strongest.

Complete Story

[Akira 0]

Since everyone seems to have an strong opinions here, I'll pose a question: what would you do if you were G.W. Bush?

Not have started the war in the first place.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Since everyone seems to have an strong opinions here, I'll pose a question: what would you do if you were G.W. Bush?

So taking it from the point of the desastrous aftermath of the March invasion I would take the following steps:

Get rid of Allawi.He is an ex-Saddam henchman thirsty for power turned into a CIA asset that hasn't stepped foot in Iraq for the last two decades,he's suport in % is struggling to excceed a one digit number and he curently is a constant source for blasting the legitimacy of the US appointed Iraqi government.

As an alternative I would discuss with the Dawa party-the most representative organisation for Shias in Iraq and appoint a PM opposed to Saddam,that understands the current need for US military presence in the country but at the same time is populary regarded by the Iraqis.

The next step is to come in front of the TV on prime time for Iraq and issue an adress to them.A complete appology for the invasion,acknowledgment of the tens of thousands of Iraqi civillians killed and assuring each and every one of them will get full compensations.Secondly,after Iraqis ellect their own sovereign government,promise a national referendum with the question-Should US forces remain in the country-respecting whatever decission is made.

Give more reconstruction contracts to Iraqi companies and hire more Iraqis emplyes as they have been begging for months now they are more then able to rebuild their shattered infrastructure and less likely to be attacked.

Drop the Zarqawi sharade.If US military intelligence had irefutable edvidence of his presence in Fallujah it would have shown it by now.I am not going to risk the lifes of hunderads of Fallujahns innocents and so wouldn't a more representative Iraqi Prime Minister.

Negotiate.Now after a more independent Iraqi government is in place,having promised a national referendum on our troops presence in the country a campaign of compensations for Iraqi famillies that have lost a member at our hands,I issued an appology for the war that I have started it's beyond doubt that some of the more moderate resistance elements would accept to join the Iraqi security forces.

To that effect I would once more take the path of leting the Fallujah brigade take care of the city but with a considerable presence of a trust worthy Iraqi NG unit,immidiatly start the reconsturction of the battered city with the condition of sending weekly a delegation that would assert if insurgents are still running illegal checkpoints etc

So there are options to the current onslought even an avertion of the Fallujah siege was possible and running credible ellections in January.But with men that are comited to an American victory rather then an Iraqi succes at the cost of countless Iraqi lifes it's no wonder why the country is such a catastrophy.

[ralphwiggum 6]

The coalition is fighting with one hand behind it's back dealing with the insurgency because of internation community and their self-conscious.

which the coalition would not have been in if they listened to international community, achieve their trust instead of saying 'we can do it ourselves'

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]The next step is to come in front of the TV on prime time for Iraq and issue an adress to them.A complete appology for the invasion,acknowledgment of the tens of thousands of Iraqi civillians killed and assuring each and every one of them will get full compensations.

I doubt any government let alone the Iraqi government could ensure that. I think it's a tad too idealistic unfortunately.

[bn880 5]

As a vague answer; the quickest solution is to restore power to those who naturally had/have it, and negotiate/cooperate with them no to create too extremist of a leadership.

This includes proper representation of Bathists and Shiites, and not A democratic split, a split based on power, which is what people in Iraq understand and which is what restores order. Then you must tend to the nation in diplomacy, until some for of evolution is possible to a better way of governing.

The first thing you want to get out of your head is democracy in Iraq in something like 5 years from invasion to function. It is not what the people know and it will not work, plus it gives most power to people who have more children, not those who are right either.

I personally think some sort of Communism would work much faster than Democracy in Iraq. Sure it will be worse off than under Saddam for a while, but that's what happens when you devastate a country like that, thanks Bush, you moron.

Edit: the only reason there is fighting in all these spots, is because the people with power want to lead, but the US is trying to bring in Democracy, and that's not exactly what Iraq is, it's not a democracy.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]which the coalition would not have been in if they listened to international community, achieve their trust instead of saying 'we can do it ourselves'

Stop using my words against me....

Anyway,

this had to hurt...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...._ambush

Quote[/b] ]

Hillah Police Ambush Kills 25 Militants

Mon Nov 8, 2:57 AM ET   Middle East - AP

LATIFIYAH, Iraq - Police launched a surprise attack on an insurgent checkpoint south of Baghdad, killing 25 militants, authorities said Monday.

 

Some 60 police officers from the city of Hillah, dressed in civilian clothing, ambushed the militants in the Latifiyah area early Sunday, said an officer with the Babil provincial police force, who declined to give his name.

During a fierce gunbattle that lasted for several hours, 25 insurgents were killed, he said. Iraqi forces reported no casualties.

Coalition and Iraqi forces have come under frequent attack in Latifiyah, about 20 miles south of the capital.

[bn880 5]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...._ambush

Quote[/b] ]

Hillah Police Ambush Kills 25 Militants

Mon Nov 8, 2:57 AM ET Middle East - AP

LATIFIYAH, Iraq - Police launched a surprise attack on an insurgent checkpoint south of Baghdad, killing 25 militants, authorities said Monday.

Some 60 police officers from the city of Hillah, dressed in civilian clothing, ambushed the militants in the Latifiyah area early Sunday, said an officer with the Babil provincial police force, who declined to give his name.

During a fierce gunbattle that lasted for several hours, 25 insurgents were killed, he said. Iraqi forces reported no casualties.

Coalition and Iraqi forces have come under frequent attack in Latifiyah, about 20 miles south of the capital.

reported and had are usually different things in war.

[quicksand 0]

Have a little faith they are after all part of the same highly experienced Iraqi security forces that captured the Imam Ali mosque detaining 2,000 fighters without firing one shot and nabbed Izzat Ibrahim Al-Douri in a Tikrit clinic killing 100 of his henchmen in operations so covert that not the Mahdi militia men nor the doctors at the clinic had even noticed their presence.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Nah,you are forgeting they are the highly experienced Iraqi security forces that captured the Imam Ali mosque detaining 2,000 fighters without firing one shot and nabbed Izzat Ibrahim Al-Douri in a Tikrit clinic killing 100 of his henchmen in operations so covert that not the Mahdi militia men nor the doctors at the clinic had even noticed their presence.

isn't this somewhat like what Baghdad Bob and some fanatics who claim to be Muslims say too?

[quicksand 0]

Nah,you are forgeting they are the highly experienced Iraqi security forces that captured the Imam Ali mosque detaining 2,000 fighters without firing one shot and nabbed Izzat Ibrahim Al-Douri in a Tikrit clinic killing 100 of his henchmen in operations so covert that not the Mahdi militia men nor the doctors at the clinic had even noticed their presence.

isn't this somewhat like what Baghdad Bob and some fanatics who claim to be Muslims say too?  

Your ironic comment has no shred of truth as the people you are refering to are actually more inclined to credit arachnids for their succeses such as the giants spiders sent by Allah that reigned upon the US marines in Fallujahs April,biting the life out of them  

[Akira 0]

SO now we are in the "Empire Strikes Back" phase.

Not looking forward to the "Return Of The Jedi" phase....

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]Not looking forward to the "Return Of The Jedi" phase....

What about the "Revenge Of The Sith" phase? That ought to be interesting...

Edit - All Hail Darth Cheney!

[bn880 5]

Have a little faith they are after all part of the same highly experienced Iraqi security forces that captured the Imam Ali mosque detaining 2,000 fighters without firing one shot and nabbed Izzat Ibrahim Al-Douri in a Tikrit clinic killing 100 of his henchmen in operations so covert that not the Mahdi militia men nor the doctors at the clinic had even noticed their presence.

Actually, it certainly is possible, if a good plan based on good recon was made, and recon is not that difficult on a checkpoint now is it.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]

What about the "Revenge Of The Sith" phase? That ought to be interesting...

Edit - All Hail Darth Cheney!

You mean Emperor Cheney and Darth W...

Bah..."Revenge of the Sith" was the 2000 election

Anyway,

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/08/iraq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]

S. troops launch Falluja assault

Iraqi prime minister: Will 'clean Falluja' of 'terrorists'

Monday, November 8, 2004 Posted: 11:31 AM EST (1631 GMT)

FALLUJA, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. and Iraqi forces have begun a push into Falluja as part of an all-out assault aimed at driving insurgents out of the city.

U.S. Army troops have crossed "the line of departure into the northeast sector of Falluja to secure a foothold in the city," military officials said.

The U.S. military is calling the assault Operation Phantom Fury.

CNN's Jane Arraf, embedded with U.S. troops on the northeast edge of the Falluja, said that the forces cut power to the city before the start of the assault.

U.S. warplanes and artillery fire hammered insurgent targets in Falluja throughout the day as thousands of U.S. and Iraqi troops massed in the nearby desert and braced for urban combat. (Gallery: Scenes from the field)

Arraf said that the artillery barrages have sparked fires in the city.

Late Sunday, Iraqi soldiers backed by U.S. Marines seized the main hospital on the western outskirts of the Sunni Triangle city. The seizure is seen as the first step in what is expected to be a major push to retake the city from as many as 5,000 insurgents. (Minor resistance as hospital seized)

U.S. forces also secured the western ends of two key bridges over the Euphrates River. It's from one of those bridges that corpses of slain U.S. security contractors were hung last spring. (Special Report: The Struggle for Iraq)

Iraqi interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi said Monday he has given U.S. and Iraqi forces the green light to rid the city of Falluja of insurgents, and he promised to restore law and order.

"We are determined to clean Falluja from terrorists," Allawi said at a news conference.

Allawi imposed a 6 p.m. (10 a.m. ET) curfew for Falluja and Ramadi as part of a security law. He said that armed groups in Falluja "do not want a peaceful settlement."

He also closed Iraq's borders with Syria and Jordan -- allowing only food convoys -- to keep insurgents from escaping to other countries.

"Yesterday, we have seen more criminal acts committed by terrorists, who continue to use Falluja as a base for their operations. I reach conviction (that there is) no other option but to take necessary measures to protect Iraq from killers, and so they will go back and lead a normal life."

More than 10,000 forces -- Marines, U.S. soldiers and Iraqi forces -- are expected to be involved in the assault. On Monday morning, tanks and attack vehicles streamed through the desert, getting in position for the fight.

The U.S. and Iraqi forces hope to pacify Falluja in time for elections in January for a transitional national assembly.

Falluja is considered an insurgent command and control center for the rest of the country and a base for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi terror network.

Its population was estimated to be 250,000 to 300,000 before warfare escalated in the city earlier this year. Now, it is thought that 50,000 civilians remain there.

Military officials say 3,000 to 5,000 insurgents may be inside the city, but they acknowledge many may have slipped away amid widespread reports that a new offensive was coming.

U.S. warplanes, including AC-130 gunships, have bombarded insurgent targets in recent days to weaken insurgent positions. American forces have pounded Falluja for months in an attempt to root out insurgents.

Marines attacked Falluja in April after four U.S. private security contractors were killed and mutilated. The ensuing battles led to many deaths. The U.S.-led forces established an indigenous Falluja brigade to restore peace to the city, but in the summer, the brigade fell apart and insurgents solidified control there.

Other developments

# Two Marines died near Falluja on Monday when their bulldozer flipped into the Euphrates River in an apparent non-combat incident, military sources said. There were no further details.

# A car bomb targeting a U.S. convoy on the Baghdad airport road Monday killed at least three Iraqis, hospital officials said. The car detonated at 9:30 a.m. The airport road has been the scene of many attacks.

# Fourteen insurgents died and nine others were arrested in an Iraqi police operation against insurgents in the Babil province town of Latifiya Sunday night. Police dressed in civilian clothes stormed a checkpoint being held by insurgents and freed a "number" of hostages, including two women, a police official said. The operation, involving about 100 police officers, netted a number of weapons, including machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades and stolen cars.

Now it is 14....

[DracoPaladore 0]

One thing I find odd about the whole Falluja siege is that their practically pasting all over news papers and articles about how they're going to do it.

Isn't this all pretty much valuable information for any Iraqi who just happens to have a good connection to these resources? It seems pretty odd that the military dosn't withhold certain information in favour of surprise. I find the term "surprise" somewhat odd considering that they loose all surprise in talking about it.

At least they don't call it 'stealthy' with artillery.

[quicksand 0]

Have a little faith they are after all part of the same highly experienced Iraqi security forces that captured the Imam Ali mosque detaining 2,000 fighters without firing one shot and nabbed Izzat Ibrahim Al-Douri in a Tikrit clinic killing 100 of his henchmen in operations so covert that not the Mahdi militia men nor the doctors at the clinic had even noticed their presence.

Actually, it certainly is possible, if a good plan based on good recon was made, and recon is not that difficult on a checkpoint now is it.

The reason I find it doubtful is because as facts have shown us the Iraqi security forces suffer from servere impotence in dealing with rebels.Just yesterday 3 of their head quarters were attacked which are natural targetes and without the suport of US forces they either got sloughtered in mass numbers or surrenderd and executed.I am not dissmising the incident beyond the realm of the possibility I just find it doubtful that the same forces plagued by desertion,reliance on US military and mass casualties in insurgent confrunations could pull a one hour battle in which they finished the enemy without suffering a single casualty.

edit:english...

[Baphomet 0]

The headlines certainly paint an optimistic picture for a quick victory in falluya. However I can't conceive that these insurgents would revert back to the same tactics that caused the overthrow of Saddam's army during the initial siege of Iraq.

Seems like they would have learned something from this and dispersed evenly throughout the city striking only at opportune times, otherwise remaining as anonymous as possible. Although with a sheer force of numbers the U.S forces have, fading into anonymity will be much more difficult. I suspect that the actual conflict yet ahead will not be as cut and dried as current reports imply it to be.

Thing is. AC-130s and 155mm artillery aren't exactly spot on precise from what I've seen, at least if you take into context that innocents could be as close as across a street. So I'm wondering if there's a calculated omittance of civilian casualties. I think it would be somewhat inaccurate or overly optimisitc to assume every civilian has buggered out of there.

Although I know if it were me. I certainly would, by any means possible.

What if they don't find the suspected resistance they expected in falluya? Perhaps they more evenly dispersed amongst other cities and brief flare ups of conflict ensue in those spots? At any rate. The Ansar Al Sunnah army has claimed to have captured three marine translators... which unfortunately are the really dangerous bunch, them and tawhid and jihad and all those other allah nutbars. Those people I don't consider legitimate insurgents. They kill civilians. All of those crazy beheading groups. They're murderers.

[python3 0]

some group has claimed to have captured 35 troops alredy. it has not been confirmed yet. so far the battle is smooth. i personally think most insurgents opted to move out of fallujah to disperse since the knew twice as many americans and much more heavy equipment would be used in the 2nd assault. I doubt they will find zarqawi, and the attacks in iraq wont stop just because fallujah is  under US contral.

Samarra is much smaller and is the "model" for the fallujah invasion. A week later they managed to strike police stations there, imagine much larger fallujah, especially if they are planning to have iraqi's police the city. Forget about it.

[bn880 5]

Yeah well in general it is better for insurgents to stay as insurgents, not some sort of major combined force. For them to inflict the most damage, they need to keep seperated and disguised until it is time for a hit and run or IED detonation...

So I would say that for the insurgents or resistance (whatever you call it), it is terrible to fight at a well defined front, it is their weakness.

[denoir 0]

They are going in with 12,000 men (10,000 US soldiers, 2,000 Iraqis). The opposition is estimated to be between 3,000 - 5,000 resistance fighters although they are saying that a significant number might have slipped away.

Either way, it seems like they are going by the book on this one. A rule of thumb is that in urban combat, the attacker has to go in 3:1 in numbers.