The Iraq thread 4

[ralphwiggum 6]

puppet gov't? i guess when Iraqi gov't says that they think US troops are going to far, it's US administrators making them talk?

No,it`s just an obvious way to sqeeze more suport from the 90% of Iraqis who consider US an occupying force and to calm those who are torching Allawi`s politcal party in a dozen Iraqi cities.

then I guess Iraqis are so dumb they will fall for it huh? Nice to call them dumb.

Quote[/b] ]Is a top position in the Iraqi government power?He has already refused one.

This prefabricated picture of a power thirsty Al-Sadr is geting extremly ridiculous by now.Tell me what do you think Chalabi wanted when he spewed the lies about Saddam`s WMDs and returned to Iraq?What did Allawi want when he brandashed the now ridiculous 45 minutes threat claim?

More over Sadr already welcomed UN peacekeeping forces excepting USA and Britain to take control of the country until there will be free ellection(I can post sources if you want) ,so imposing his supreme wil over Iraq does not exactly stand,does it now?

Al sadr, in his own words wante d a muclim IRaq not just a Iraq. tell me. if something goes the way a person planned. isn't he the one in power? denial of the fact that al Sadr is going for power is as dangerous as Bush with a pretzel.

If you haven't noticed, Chalabi is on his way out. Iraqi Governing Counil already has a warant on him, he is now someone that even TBA is not willing to touch with a 100 mile pole. Considering this, Al Sadr is still in a good situation.

free election? i thought it was the puppet gov't setting it up so it would be under the imperialist rule forever?

Quote[/b] ]Like tens of millions of French thought the German forces during their 3 years of occupation?

Get it out of your mind that all Iraqis are a bunch of fanatics waiting for the "J" word to unleash rampage across the infidels.

Most are ordinary people just like you and me who just want to move past this horrid page of their lives without having to fight Abrams with 30 years old AKs and dodging hellfire missles even though they might be stunch supporters of Moqtada Al-Sadr.

J? J. Lo?

And you should also notice that most of people are not happy about Al Sadr either. they don't give a shit about his religious fanaticism. Just look at Fallujah. marines did not get a good fight because the whole city didn't like marines. comapred to that getting US forces close to the mosque shows that the resistance within the city is not as much as it is thought to be.

Quote[/b] ]Couldn`t have said it better myself.Look at the mess in Iraq,all because the wish of an overwelming majority of Iraqis to have the US soldiers gone from their country is ignored.

yeah and while US was getting harassed by just about all the nations before 9-11 doens't help it either. after 9-11, France literally pledged to help US. Who knows what motivated them, but it shows that everyone has blood on their hands.

nice of you to reveal the spin control at it core. Majority of want Iraqis want US out EVENTUALLY, not RIGHT NOW. you just posted, in your own words, that Iraqis want US out, but not regarding the fact that they also value US's presence as for now.

[billybob2002 0]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....tack_2p

Quote[/b] ]Iraq's South Oil Co. Headquarters Torched

38 minutes ago

BASRA, Iraq - Shiite militants loyal to radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr broke into the headquarters of Iraq (news - web sites)'s South Oil Co. on Thursday and set the company's warehouses and offices on fire, witnesses said.

The attack in the southern city of Basra came after the militants had threatened to sabotage Iraq's crucial oil infrastructure to protest the ongoing clashes pitting militants against U.S. and Iraqi forces in the holy city of Najaf.

The insurgents broke into the oil company compound late Thursday and burned its warehouses, holding drilling equipment and other gear, to the ground. The fire then spread to the company's offices

Al-Sadr is just digging a deeper hole.

[ralphwiggum 6]

/off to gas station to fill the tank up.

[Tovarish 0]

Unwilling participants - Iraqi soccer players angered by Bush campaign ads featuring team

Quote[/b] ] PATRAS, Greece -- Iraqi midfielder Salih Sadir scored a goal here on Wednesday night, setting off a rousing celebration among the 1,500 Iraqi soccer supporters at Pampeloponnisiako Stadium. Though Iraq -- the surprise team of the Olympics -- would lose to Morocco 2-1, it hardly mattered as the Iraqis won Group D with a 2-1 record and now face Australia in the quarterfinals on Sunday.

Afterward, Sadir had a message for U.S. president George W. Bush, who is using the Iraqi Olympic team in his latest re-election campaign advertisements.

In those spots, the flags of Iraq and Afghanistan appear as a narrator says, "At this Olympics there will be two more free nations -- and two fewer terrorist regimes."

"Iraq as a team does not want Mr. Bush to use us for the presidential campaign," Sadir told SI.com through a translator, speaking calmly and directly. "He can find another way to advertise himself."

Ahmed Manajid, who played as a midfielder on Wednesday, had an even stronger response when asked about Bush's TV advertisement. "How will he meet his god having slaughtered so many men and women?" Manajid told me. "He has committed so many crimes."

The Bush campaign was contacted about the Iraqi soccer player's statements, but has yet to respond.

To a man, members of the Iraqi Olympic delegation say they are glad that former Olympic committee head Uday Hussein, who was responsible for the serial torture of Iraqi athletes and was killed four months after the U.S.-led coalition invaded Iraq in March 2003, is no longer in power.

But they also find it offensive that Bush is using their team for his own gain when they do not support his administration's actions in Iraq. "My problems are not with the American people," says Iraqi soccer coach Adnan Hamad. "They are with what America has done in Iraq: destroy everything. The American army has killed so many people in Iraq. What is freedom when I go to the [national] stadium and there are shootings on the road?"

At a speech in Beaverton, Ore., last Friday, Bush attached himself to the Iraqi soccer team after its opening-game upset of Portugal. "The image of the Iraqi soccer team playing in this Olympics, it's fantastic, isn't it?" Bush said. "It wouldn't have been free if the United States had not acted."

Sadir, Wednesday's goal-scorer, used to be the star player for the professional soccer team in Najaf. In the city in which 20,000 fans used to fill the stadium and chant Sadir's name, U.S. and Iraqi forces have battled loyalists to rebel cleric Moktada al-Sadr for the past two weeks. Najaf lies in ruins.

"I want the violence and the war to go away from the city," says Sadir, 21. "We don't wish for the presence of Americans in our country. We want them to go away."

Manajid, 22, who nearly scored his own goal with a driven header on Wednesday, hails from the city of Fallujah. He says coalition forces killed Manajid's cousin, Omar Jabbar al-Aziz, who was fighting as an insurgent, and several of his friends. In fact, Manajid says, if he were not playing soccer he would "for sure" be fighting as part of the resistance.

"I want to defend my home. If a stranger invades America and the people resist, does that mean they are terrorists?" Manajid says. "Everyone [in Fallujah] has been labeled a terrorist. These are all lies. Fallujah people are some of the best people in Iraq."

Everyone agrees that Iraq's soccer team is one of the Olympics' most remarkable stories. If the Iraqis beat Australia on Saturday -- which is entirely possible, given their performance so far -- they would reach the semifinals. Three of the four semifinalists will earn medals, a prospect that seemed unthinkable for Iraq before this tournament.

When the Games are over, though, Coach Hamad says, they will have to return home to a place where they fear walking the streets. "The war is not secure," says Hamad, 43. "Many people hate America now. The Americans have lost many people around the world--and that is what is happening in America also."

[ralphwiggum 6]

yeah posted that in US presidential election thread too. works in both threads but I was lazy...

There must be some sort of international conspiracy. Iraq soccer team is doing too well...maybe they are happy that Hussein is gone, or that they won't get bombed there.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]then I guess Iraqis are so dumb they will fall for it huh? Nice to call them dumb.

Nope,it did little to elevate Allawi`s picture among Iraqis.Choppers still have to hoover around him along with two dozen American contractors scanning the area when he visits a damaged pipeline in the desert.

Quote[/b] ]tell me. if something goes the way a person planned. isn't he the one in power?

You are right,you`ve also just acnkowledged that The Bush Administration is the one who is curently in power in Iraq hence a puppet government.

Quote[/b] ]Al sadr, in his own words wante d a muclim IRaq not just a Iraq.

He is a friggin cleric what did you expect he wanted a christian Iraq .

Quote[/b] ]denial of the fact that al Sadr is going for power is as dangerous as Bush with a pretzel.

Or as dangerous as not admiting that given the current situation,a democratic ellected government that would inherent it`s population opinons will be just as anti-American as Moqtada Al-Sadr.

Quote[/b] ]If you haven't noticed, Chalabi is on his way out. Iraqi Governing Counil already has a warant on him, he is now someone that even TBA is not willing to touch with a 100 mile pole.

Chalabi has done his intended purpose.An exiled Iraqi with a terrific english accent lieing through his theets about Saddam`s WMDs he recived more then enough media attention in USA.

You are also forgeting about the "betraying the hand that fed you part".

Quote[/b] ] Considering this, Al Sadr is still in a good situation.

Allawi "45 minutes threat man" isn`t doing very bad either is he now?

Quote[/b] ]And you should also notice that most of people are not happy about Al Sadr either. they don't give a shit about his religious fanaticism.

Oh,but they do.33% of Iraqis strongly suport him according to the latest polls and 40% somewhat suport them,after Sistani he was regarded as the most popular figure among Iraqis.

Quote[/b] ]Just look at Fallujah. marines did not get a good fight because the whole city didn't like marines. comapred to that getting US forces close to the mosque shows that the resistance within the city is not as much as it is thought to be.

Comparing Fallujah`s resistance with that of Najaf is simply put counter productive.Fallujah is a centre of unemployed army officers from the most proud and well trained batallions of the dismantled army.For them it was the battle of their life times where they had the chance to finally show their experience which they did.

In Najaf,we have a lot of ill equipped,poor trained fighters.Mostly ineffective against the US tanks and air power they come short of having the heavy equipment(IGLAs ,Katiyusha missles,modern RPGs) the Sunnis had at their disposal.So bottom line I don`t find it at all surprising the US marines got so close to the mosque.

Quote[/b] ]Who knows what motivated them, but it shows that everyone has blood on their hands..

Rubbish,Iraq had nothing to do with the good intentions of the countries that pledged to help USA on the war on terrorism.I fail to see how France,Germany and the majority of countries that didn`t join Bush "coallition of the willing" has the blood of tens of thousands of Iraqis on their hands.

Quote[/b] ]nice of you to reveal the spin control at it core. Majority of want Iraqis want US out EVENTUALLY, not RIGHT NOW. you just posted, in your own words, that Iraqis want US out, but not regarding the fact that they also value US's presence as for now.

You could be right on this one,a poll tallied 4 months ago will tend to get rusty in my mind.

And about value,they sure value US prsence.The fact that a majority of Iraqis agree with attacks on them says it all.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Nope,it did little to elevate Allawi`s picture among Iraqis.Choppers still have to hoover around him along with two dozen American contractors scanning the area when he visits a damaged pipeline in the desert.

you are completely missing the point. my point was that iraqis are not mind-controlled by US. they will elect whomever they see fit. they are not sheeps.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]tell me. if something goes the way a person planned. isn't he the one in power?

Congratulations,you`ve just acnkowledged that the The Bush Administration is the one who is curently in power in Iraq.

and you also acknowledge that Al Sadr wants that power under his belt.

Quote[/b] ]He is a friggin cleric what did you expect he wanted a christian Iraq.

You want a Taliban v.2.0 iraq?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]denial of the fact that al Sadr is going for power is as dangerous as Bush with a pretzel.

Or as dangerous as not acnkowledging that given the current Iraqi opinion,a democratic ellected government that would inherent it`s population attitude will be just as anti-American as Al-Sadr.

if Iraqis vote for anti-US gov't they got a choice and made it. However, not giving a choice to begin with is worse idea. Add religious fanaticism, then you have muslim equivalent of fanatic catholics who decided to rule everything according to the good book.

Quote[/b] ]Chalabi has done his intended purpose.An exiled Iraqi with a terrific english accent lieing through his theets about Saddam`s WMDs he recived more then enough media attention in USA.

your argument was that Chalabi wanted power through US's intervention, making him just as bad as Al Sadr. Guess what Chalabi is now kicked out, but Al Sadr isn't.

Quote[/b] ]You are also forgeting about the "betraying the hand that fed you part".

make up your mind, should US support Chalabi to bitter end or drop him from doing further damage?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]And you should also notice that most of people are not happy about Al Sadr either. they don't give a shit about his religious fanaticism.

Oh,but they do.33% of Iraqis strongly suport him according to the latest polls and 40% somewhat suport them,after Sistani he was regarded as the most popular figure among Iraqis.

what is 100-33?

what is 100-40?

Britney spears is popular. but does that make her Aretha Franklin?(just had a chill down my spine thinking about that.....brrrrrr)

Quote[/b] ]Comparing Fallujah`s resistance with that of Najaf is simply put counter productive.Fallujah is a centre of unemployed army officers from the most proud and well trained batallions of the dismantled army.For them it was the battle of their life times where they had the chance to finally show their experience which they did.

In Najaf,we have a lot of ill equipped,poor trained fighters.Mostly ineffective against the US tanks and air power they come short of having the heavy equipment(IGLAs ,Katiyusha missles,modern RPGs) the Sunnis had at their disposal.So bottom line I don`t find it at all surprising the US marines got so close to the mosque.

I'm sorry, but when was not belonging to a group considered ineffective? They would have some training equal to that of Fallujah insurgents. I beleive Najaf residents were not exempt from military service during Hussein's time.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Who knows what motivated them, but it shows that everyone has blood on their hands..

Rubbish,Iraq had nothing to do with the good intentions of the countries that pledged to help USA on the war on terrorism.I fail to see how France,Germany and the majority of countries that didn`t join Bush "coallition of the willing" has the blood of tens of thousands of Iraqis on their hands.

again, you lost focus. I was talking about how majority can be wrong to while minority can be wrong/right. You tried to use my own words against me, but I countered that by showing there are times when minority can be right, while majority is wrong. majority ususally has right answer but not always.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]nice of you to reveal the spin control at it core. Majority of want Iraqis want US out EVENTUALLY, not RIGHT NOW. you just posted, in your own words, that Iraqis want US out, but not regarding the fact that they also value US's presence as for now.

You could be right on this one,a poll tallied 4 months ago will tend to get rusty in my mind.

And about value,they sure value US prsence.The fact that a majority of Iraqis agree with attacks on them says it all.

guess majority of Iraqis want to get carbombed for no reason or get crossfires? what did Iraqis say when US talks about pulling out? they say US's tropp need sto stabilize the country. You also said on occasiona that there are soooo many factions that it's hard to gauze which one is representation of Iraq. now you are saying they are representation of Iraq.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]you are completely missing the point. my point was that iraqis are not mind-controlled by US. they will elect whomever they see fit. they are not sheeps.

But your first point was that the Interm government is not a puppet to TBA because of some pale criticism against some US actions,my arguments were directed at that missconception.

Quote[/b] ]You want a Taliban v.2.0 iraq?

Ralph,I think better of you then this TBA apocalyptic prophicies of a civillian war ridden,terrorist heaven,taliban like Iraq if the enemies of USA prevail.

When Al-Sadr ordered his militia to stop fighting US forces and mobalise against Zarqawi,welcommed the blue helmetts to help hold free ellections and a Vatican envoy to negotiate peace do you think it was all part of a well carved plan of creating a taliban 2.0?

Quote[/b] ]Add religious fanaticism, then you have muslim equivalent of fanatic catholics who decided to rule everything according to the good book.

You mean sharia like the one imposed in Saudi Arabia,go figure.

In Iraq the only one who wants a fundamentalist Iraq is Zarqawi who recived death treaths from Sunni insurgents and Al-Sadr,would you have guessed...

Quote[/b] ]your argument was that Chalabi wanted power through US's intervention, making him just as bad as Al Sadr. Guess what Chalabi is now kicked out, but Al Sadr isn't.

My argument was that both Chalabi and Allawi wanted power through US's intervention.Chalabi has maverously done his purpose pre-war wise at least and he became overdue,Allawi the "45 minutes claim man" on the other hand..

Quote[/b] ]make up your mind, should US support Chalabi to bitter end or drop him from doing further damage?

"Betraying the hand that fed you" was directed at Chalabi's affair with Iran for which TBA never forgived him as in his betrayal;USA hand.

Quote[/b] ]what is 100-33?

what is 100-40?

Britney spears is popular. but does that make her Aretha Franklin?(just had a chill down my spine thinking about that.....brrrrrr)

Nope,but it sure makes her better then [insert pop star worst then Britney].So a person that has 33% suport from the population is a more legitimate representative then an untrusted self imposed interim government.

Quote[/b] ]'m sorry, but when was not belonging to a group considered ineffective? They would have some training equal to that of Fallujah insurgents. I beleive Najaf residents were not exempt from military service during Hussein's time.

Ralph,it`s a documented fact that when Saddam`s regime prepared the guerilla war they`ve hided most of the weapons in the Sunni triangle and aroound Baghdad where his suport was the highest.The Mahdi army is managing with alot less in their effort.

Another fact,Mahdi militia men are geting sloughtered.In Fallujah every encounter led to atleast a Marine dead,tanks got bogged down,choppers brought down until it was decided to switch to night raids,also the fighters knew how to protect themselves atleast to the possible extent.Compare the rates with Najaf where Al-Sadr supporters get killed 30-40 at a time.

Quote[/b] ]again, you lost focus. I was talking about how majority can be wrong to while minority can be wrong/right. You tried to use my own words against me, but I countered that by showing there are times when minority can be right, while majority is wrong. majority ususally has right answer but not always.

Here is what you wrote:after 9-11, France literally pledged to help US. Who knows what motivated them, but it shows that everyone has blood on their hands.

So are you saying France suporting USA after caming under terrorist attack while refusing to endorse the agression against Iraq which had nothing to do with the war on terrorism was a wrong thing to do or what?Yes I fail to see how France has blood on it`s hands Iraq related.

Or are you saying that the fact that France jumped to help USA after it came under attack prooved that it had blood on it`s hands in which case I can argument my disagreement .

Quote[/b] ]what did Iraqis say when US talks about pulling out? they say US's tropp need sto stabilize the country.

Do you mean the unellected,undendorsed by Iraqis,US appointed government,I fail to remember any referendum among Iraqis on this issue.

Quote[/b] ]You also said on occasiona that there are soooo many factions that it's hard to gauze which one is representation of Iraq. now you are saying they are representation of Iraq.

I stand by my claim.The polls are extremly unreliable judging by the Iraqi mixt ethnic nature and other existent factors but unfortunatly it`s all we have even though in reality Al-Sadr suport could be at 65% or at 10%.So we can trust them or go flipping the coin on what Iraqis want and like.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]you are completely missing the point. my point was that iraqis are not mind-controlled by US. they will elect whomever they see fit. they are not sheeps.

But your first point was that the Interm government is not a puppet to TBA because of some pale criticism against some US actions,my arguments were directed at that missconception.

then are you saying current admins in Iraq is puppet gov't? I showed you that it is not the truth, and you posted in previous reply about situation where puppet gov't is filled with anti-US representatives. if the puppet gov't is there how can it happen?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]You want a Taliban v.2.0 iraq?

Ralph,I think better of you then this TBA apocalyptic prophicies of a civillian war ridden,terrorist heaven,taliban like Iraq if the enemies of USA prevail.

When Al-Sadr ordered his militia to stop fighting US forces and mobalise against Zarqawi,welcommed the blue helmetts to help hold free ellections and a Vatican envoy to negotiate peace do you think it was all part of a well carved plan of creating a taliban 2.0?

no a ploy to buy time, save face. I'll beleive that he is sincere when he lays his arms down and tries to win votes, not ammo crates.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Add religious fanaticism, then you have muslim equivalent of fanatic catholics who decided to rule everything according to the good book.

You mean sharia like the one imposed in Saudi Arabia,go figure.

In Iraq the only one who wants a fundamentalist Iraq is Zarqawi who recived death treaths from Sunni insurgents and Al-Sadr,would you have guessed...

you mean same sunnis who loved Hussein? go figure. are you siding with oppressing? be my guest(see my sig )

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]your argument was that Chalabi wanted power through US's intervention, making him just as bad as Al Sadr. Guess what Chalabi is now kicked out, but Al Sadr isn't.

My argument was that both Chalabi and Allawi wanted power through US's intervention.Chalabi has maverously done his purpose pre-war wise at least and he became overdue,Allawi the "45 minutes claim man" on the other hand..

45 minute claim was from where? UK not US. Powell just quoted it.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]make up your mind, should US support Chalabi to bitter end or drop him from doing further damage?

"Betraying the hand that fed you" was directed at Chalabi's affair with Iran for which TBA never forgived him as in his betrayal;USA hand.

So Chalabi decides to do whatever he wants to do. he will have to face consequence, and no one is welcoming him right now.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]what is 100-33?

what is 100-40?

Britney spears is popular. but does that make her Aretha Franklin?(just had a chill down my spine thinking about that.....brrrrrr)

Nope,but it sure makes her better then [insert pop star worst then Britney].So a person that has 33% suport from the population is a more legitimate representative then an untrusted self imposed interim government.

read between the line. there are 66-67percent more who don't support him. if i do something for sake of 33 percent while disregarding 66-67 percent that's not democracy.

Quote[/b] ]Ralph,it`s a documented fact that when Saddam`s regime prepared the guerilla war they`ve hided most of the weapons in the Sunni triangle and aroound Baghdad where his suport was the highest.The Mahdi army is managing with alot less in their effort.

Another fact,Mahdi militia men are geting sloughtered.In Fallujah every encounter led to atleast a Marine dead,tanks got bogged down,choppers brought down until it was decided to switch to night raids,also the fighters knew how to protect themselves atleast to the possible extent.Compare the rates with Najaf where Al-Sadr supporters get killed 30-40 at a time.

given the fact that in urban combat the attacking side usually sustains more casualty, i say the Najaf insurgents are not that stupid. they at least know how to make some dent.

Quote[/b] ]So are you saying France suporting USA after caming under terrorist attack while refusing to endorse the agression against Iraq which had nothing to do with the war on terrorism was a wrong thing to do or what?Yes I fail to see how France has blood on it`s hands Iraq related.

Or are you saying that the fact that France jumped to help USA after it came under attack prooved that it had blood on it`s hands in which case I can argument my disagreement .

oy, miscommunication at its finest.

France has been(along with Russia) the biggest guys who could harass US, and they did so until 9-11. France always tried to piss of US, until they realized that their action could be wrongly interpreted in international perspective.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]what did Iraqis say when US talks about pulling out? they say US's tropp need sto stabilize the country.

Do you mean the unellected,undendorsed by Iraqis,US appointed government,I fail to remember any referendum among Iraqis on this issue.

check back to 4 month old statistics. it had nothing to do with interim gov't, more with how Iraqis percieved their situation. it was run by 'liberal' media

Quote[/b] ]I stand by my claim.The polls are extremly unreliable judging by the Iraqi mixt ethnic nature and other existent factors but unfortunatly it`s all we have even though in reality Al-Sadr suport could be at 65% or at 10%.So we can trust them or go flipping the coin on what Iraqis want and like.

I can assure you that although statistics is not a big superstar, it does have its merit. the problem is setting up the damn survey.

[billybob2002 0]

This is getting strange....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....9213007

Quote[/b] ]

Al-Sadr Tells Militia to Turn Over Shrine

39 minutes ago  Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo!

By ABDUL HUSSEIN AL-OBEIDI, Associated Press Writer

NAJAF, Iraq - Radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr ordered his fighters Thursday to hand control of a revered Najaf shrine to top Shiite religious authorities, hours after U.S. forces bombed militant positions and Iraq (news - web sites)'s prime minister made a "final call" for the cleric's militia to surrender.

..........

[ralphwiggum 6]

flip flop flip flop flip flop....this is worse than daytime soaps...

[walker 0]

Hi all

I was just watching the live feed from Najaf on the BBC big battle taking place. AC 130s in use along with tanks and bombs. Big fires in the city.

Quote[/b] ]Explosions shake Iraqi holy city

A series of loud explosions has rocked the holy Iraqi city of Najaf as radical Shia cleric Moqtada Sadr continued to defy calls to end his insurgency.

Orange flashes lit up the night sky as US warplanes flew overhead and thick black smoke rose from the old city, where Mr Sadr's militiamen are based.

The blasts came after Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi made a "final call" on Mr Sadr to end the fighting.

One report said shelling was the heaviest in the two-week stand-off.

The BBC's Kylie Morris in Najaf said the bombardment by US planes had been intense, leaving a smoky haze that stretched across the night horizon.

The bombing went on for more than 30 minutes, and the explosions could be heard several kilometres away.

A large cloud of smoke was seen rising near the Imam Ali shrine, from where Sadr supporters have been fighting US troops.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3580728.stm

Meanwhile I also saw the film from Bahgdad of a destroyed Abrahms and a hunk of twisted metal that may at one time have been a bradley. To me it looked like they got hit by a giant road side bomb. If it was a roadside bomb I dont think the crews survived.

I have not found pictures on the web yet only seen it on some exclusive BBC film.

Sadly Walker

[Bernadotte 0]

Al sadr, in his own words wanted a muslim IRaq not just a Iraq.

And what's wrong with that?  

Quote[/b] ]if something goes the way a person planned. isn't he the one in power?

I planned that today would be sunny, and it was.  Guess that makes me real powerful, huh?  

[walker 0]

Hi all

Anyone got links to the pictures of the destroyed US tanks they are showing on the BBC News 24.

Kind Regards Walker

[bn880 5]

I do not, but days ago I saw pictures of wiped out bradley(s)... and probably more than one humvee, hard to tell.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]if something goes the way a person planned. isn't he the one in power?

I planned that today would be sunny, and it was.  Guess that makes me real powerful, huh?  

you speculated that today would be sunny, not planned. planned is used in my post as something that is thought out to achieve objective(s) upon execution of it.

[Bernadotte 0]

Ok Ralph, let's use your exact words (again):

Al sadr, in his own words wanted a muslim IRaq not just an Iraq. tell me. if something goes the way a person planned. isn't he the one in power?

Now let's change them as I'd suggested in my example:

Quote[/b] ]Bernadotte, in his own words wanted a sunny day. tell me. if something goes the way a person planned. isn't he the one in power?

Sounds kinda silly, doesn't it?

Just because it's going Sadr's way doesn't mean he had any more control over it than I had over the weather.

And please try to answer my other question too, okay?

[ralphwiggum 6]

actually, no. read the latter portion of my post again. I used the term planned, as something that is upon execution, can meet objective.

Bernadotte does NOT have the power to change weather. thus he cannot plan the weather.

However, Ralph can eat the whole can of glue. He DOES have power to do so, this he can plan to eat a whole can.

on the other question, the answer is that Iraqis can, and should be given chance to choose, not by a cleric, but bythemselves. If Iraqis want Al Sadr as president, then they can vote so.

however, having a religious doctrine attached to political decision is a bad idea. Just look at Bush. just implying about Christianity brings problem.

anyways, today is one year after the UN headquarter in Baghdad was attacked. RIP.

http://www.un.org/events/memorial/19august/

edit: ah crap..missed by a day...

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]edit: ah crap..missed by a day...

May they RIP. Did not the bunhole's friends videotaped the aftermath (like filming Millo's body or something) ? My memory is very shot, tonight...my bad, this morning...

[bn880 5]

Bernadotte does NOT have the power to change weather. thus he cannot plan the weather.

There you go with your assumptions again.

Quote[/b] ]

However, Ralph can eat the whole can of glue. He DOES have power to do so, this he can plan to eat a whole can.

on the other question, the answer is that Iraqis can, and should be given chance to choose, not by a cleric, but bythemselves. If Iraqis want Al Sadr as president, then they can vote so.

Seriously, I think that Bernadotte is using that as an example to highlight that a statement like that can not be considered absolute "proof" or conclusion, just a generalization or assumption.

Anyway, ~77 people reported killed today in the morning in Najaf fighting, and there are more and more ruins, this may get interesting with time.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArt....6029584

Additionally Sadr offered to hand over the SHrine to another muslim cleric (forget name), no takers it seems so far, but we'll see.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Bernadotte does NOT have the power to change weather. thus he cannot plan the weather.

There you go with your assumptions again.  

how come denoir can get away with it and not me?

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]However, Ralph can eat the whole can of glue. He DOES have power to do so, this he can plan to eat a whole can.

on the other question, the answer is that Iraqis can, and should be given chance to choose, not by a cleric, but bythemselves. If Iraqis want Al Sadr as president, then they can vote so.

Seriously, I think that Bernadotte is using that as an example to highlight that a statement like that can not be considered absolute "proof" or conclusion, just a generalization or assumption.

purpose of my statement was to show that Al-Sadr is NOT a margianl figure so far. he has been able to incite some problem.

[quicksand 0]

Fudge,my long reply to RW just got timed out and I really can`t be arsed to rewrite it now .No mather,you and I both know that our debate would just have gotten to a tireing ten pages argument with no worthwhile result for either of us,so for now I will call it a day

[Ares1978 0]

Al sadr, in his own words wanted a muslim IRaq not just a Iraq.

And what's wrong with that?  

1. There are muslims and then there are muslims.

2. Some muslims are more muslim than others.

3. Other muslims are more muslim than some muslims.

4. Some muslims will try and take power away from other muslims, by force if necessary.

5. Other muslims will try and stop some muslims from doing it.

6. Muslims will win, muslims will go taleban.

Never EVER give power to religious fanatics.

[Bernadotte 0]

Al sadr, in his own words wanted a muslim IRaq not just a Iraq.

And what's wrong with that?  

1. There are muslims and then there are muslims.

2. Some muslims are more muslim than others.

3. Other muslims are more muslim than some muslims.

4. Some muslims will try and take power away from other muslims, by force if necessary.

5. Other muslims will try and stop some muslims from doing it.

6. Muslims will win, muslims will go taleban.

Never EVER give power to religious fanatics.

Except for number 6, I could substitute Muslim with Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc., in every one of your statements and still end up saying, "So what?"

But would you mind explaining how you come up with number 6 ?  And I'd also like to know how a Muslim Iraq has anything to do with giving power to religious fanatics.  In case you haven't noticed, the country is already Muslim.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Fudge,my long reply to RW just got timed out and I really can`t be arsed to rewrite it now    .No mather,you and I both know that our debate would just have gotten to a tireing ten pages argument with no worthwhile result for either of us,so for now I will call it a day  

I can help you with that. how about perm ban?

just kidding.