The Iraq thread 4

[EiZei 0]

*EDIT: Oh a side not to let you think about what's going on. In early November Iran said It "will be announced as an established nuclear state during the 2007 Ten Day Dawn ceremonies." The "Ten Day Dawn Celebrations" is from Feb 1st-11th, which is basically right on the nose of when the USS John C. Stennis arrives. let it be noted than nothing in politics is accidental.

And a report by some americans Iran is 10 years away from having nukes...but better rush in now and ask questions later...a bit like Iraq

Why delay something you could do now?

(hey, maybe it's one of those invade two, get third for free-type of deals)

[Florida_Guardsmen 0]

NOTE: My above Post has been edited

Quote[/b] ]Not if Turkey, Iran and Syria have any say on it.

And who do you think will help Kurdistan? If they will be fighting terrorists (aside from Turkey) who do you think will jump in? I'm sure an agreement with Turkey will come up, though. They have been having troubles with illegal Iranian immigrants coming into Turkey. So much so that they closed off a mountain. I'm sure they wouldn't mind dumping their problems on the Kurds... as long as they don't encroach on Turkish soil.

But the Kurds do encroach on Turkish soil.

They are the primary source of terrorism in Turkey.

Actually its the other way around. The Ottoman Empire conquered the Kurdish region, and the Kurds want to be independant. The Turkish infringe on KURDISH territory, which was why the PKK engaged the Turkish military back in '99 (and then the Turks began destroying Kurdish villages, and forcing them into refugee camps) and also why the Kurds fought that uprising back in the early 1900s before the Great War.

[Baff1 0]

Choose your allies mate. I'm with the Turks.

When we took Iraq off the Ottomans we used WMD on the Kurds too.

[Florida_Guardsmen 0]

Choose your allies mate. I'm with the Turks.

When we took Iraq off the Ottomans we used WMD on the Kurds too.

You mean the British? When the Brits took that region in WWI, they didn't have those kind of weapons aside from gas weapons.

As for choosing allies: I'm not choosing either side. I believe in justice, and the Kurds should have their own home if they want it. The Turks took that land from the Kurds, so we should give it back to them.

(and as for "we" taking Iraq off the Ottomans, I am an American, as my display name should represent. The Americans didn't fight in the Mid-East during The Great War)

[Sophion-Black 0]

And a report by some americans Iran is 10 years away from having nukes...but better rush in now and ask questions later...a bit like Iraq

That flies out the window when Sergei Shmatko (A Russian) signs an agreement with Iran to ship fuel to a nuclear power plant it is building in Iran. And that Iran plans to install some 3,000 uranium enrichment centrifuges. Sounds like they are speeding off to get nukes doesn't it?

Sure... a decade, I'd say your generous 8 years. Iran is expected to have nuclear capabilities by the end of 2009. And its safe to say that if the US hasn't done anything by then Israel would be at Iran's throat. From the looks at it, they wouldn't be too afraid to use a few nukes either.

[Duke 0]

The way Iran's leader is, he would indeed like to use a nuke or 2. He has even said, that he would like to whipe isreal off the face of the earth. Why wait till the year he does have a nuclear weapon capable of hitting someone, and risk the chance of him using it, when we or another country could prevent it now and not have to worry about it later?. Everyone seem to think things like this can cure day/night.

[EiZei 0]

The way Iran's leader is, he would indeed like to use a nuke or 2. He has even said, that he would like to whipe isreal off the face of the earth. Why wait till the year he does have a nuclear weapon capable of hitting someone, and risk the chance of him using it, when we or another country could prevent it now and not have to worry about it later?. Everyone seem to think things like this can cure day/night.

While in the real world politicians have a tendency to use them for long-term strategic gains rather than fulfill every bullshit piece of rhetoric they have spouted over the last few years. Still, a very scary scenario indeed.

[Duke 0]

Many people would be thinking, "Why should we worry now? that's years down the road, let's worry about the here and now instead." Well, when we decide to wait and not do nothing now, and then actually watch them do something later, people will say, "Well why didn't they take care of this before hand when they could have, why did they wait till now?" *Sigh* Generations.

[Messiah 2]

Lmfao, respect for Saddam? Who intentionally killed over 1 Million of his own people? Wow, now I've seen it all. Why don't people just crown the fuckin guy and call him the true Warrior, when he was found in a spider hole. FFS.

no, respect for a condemed man, whomever it may be... but I'm sure the concept of respect for anyone who disagrees with your tastes is probably far beyond your capabilities.

[Bordoy 0]

Many people would be thinking, "Why should we worry now? that's years down the road, let's worry about the here and now instead." Well, when we decide to wait and not do nothing now, and then actually watch them do something later, people will say, "Well why didn't they take care of this before hand when they could have, why did they wait till now?"   *Sigh* Generations.

No doubt someone was born today, what should we do about the baby? It could grow up to be the next Hitler, Saddam etc. Under what you are saying, it should be killed.

Thats one baby, your talking about invading a country in which thousands will die (men, women and children).

[Duke 0]

I'm talking about a mad man, with a weapon(s) capable of doing things with.

[Duke 0]

A man that has been tried, convicted, and the evidence is there of his crimes, does not deserve any good treatment what-so-ever. If we would have let the Iraqi people have him, they would have done to him what he did to many people. They would have hanged him slowly, the slow tortureous way. But I forgot, We're "Civilized". People today are half the problem in this world. Everyone seems to think, "Don't convict a man that has donemany crimes, it's horrible". Too many soft people. If it weren't for the media and the way our people are, This war would be different.

Let's bring back the days of WWII, Where the people had more pride in their country and were a harder people.

[Balschoiw 0]

Ok, go kill GW. He´s started an illegal war with weekly changing justifications, made up things like the 911 Iraq tie, AQ in Airaq, etc and he´s guilty of sending 3000 servicemen and women to death. Hes also guilty of having killed about 100.000 iraqui civillians and he´s guilty of not having any plan on how to stop that mess. Kill him, by your reasoning that´s the only option left. He also threatened to use NBC weapons, so kill him. It´s more than a preemptive strike to do it, it´s a logic consequence of your own reasoning. On the big screen the US have been the ONLY ones to use nukes on civillians intentionally. I guess you are in NO position to tell otherts what to do, keeping in mind what a funny record on breaking chartas, agreements and international treaties you have lately.

You want global opposition. You already have it.

The US better shut up before pointing fingers again.

[EiZei 0]

Let's bring back the days of WWII, Where the people had more pride in their country and were a harder people.

One could argue that same "pride" eventually led to the whole damn thing in the first place.

[Duke 0]

Ok, go kill GW. He´s started an illegal war with weekly changing justifications, made up things like the 911 Iraq tie, AQ in Airaq, etc and he´s guilty of sending 3000 servicemen and women to death. Hes also guilty of having killed about 100.000 iraqui civillians and he´s guilty of not having any plan on how to stop that mess. Kill him, by your reasoning that´s the only option left. He also threatened to use NBC weapons, so kill him. It´s more than a preemptive strike to do it, it´s a logic consequence of your own reasoning. On the big screen the US have been the ONLY ones to use nukes on civillians intentionally. I guess you are in NO position to tell otherts what to do, keeping in mind what a funny record on breaking chartas, agreements and international treaties you have lately.

You want global opposition. You already have it.

The US better shut up before pointing fingers again.

And if the US doesnt? What are you going to do about it? I know what you'll do about it, Nothing.

As for Bush intentionally killing thousands and using Nuclear based weapons, When did he do this? Because I'm sure all these Liberals out here what have gotten a hold on that shit by now. They need every feeding reason they can to complain about what's right and wrong. The US used the Atomic Bomb on Japan in WW2, Why? Because there was no other option to break the Japanese spirit.

We attacked Al-Qeada's Stronghold (Afghanistan) after those cowards flew 2 airliners full of passengers into 2 buildings full of more innocent people. He said.. "You're with us or Against Us".

Fighting Al-Qaeda isn't going to be in just 1 country. Don't you know by now their are MANY, Al-Qaeda members in iraq? They are in more then 60 Countries. And, intentional killing thousands? uhh no, We never "intentionally killed thousands of innocents". But in War, people will die. Look at the tolls from Vietnam and other past conflicts compared to now, the death tolls, of civilians and govt personell. If "ALL" of the Iraqi people wanted us out of Iraq. They would have let us know. If people "loved" Saddam like they all showed when HE was around, why did they dance around his body?

This war in Iraq is a different kind of war. We are fighting in enemy that, is your friend one day, but picks a weapon up the next and shoots at you. So, how do you fight it? They are looking for more strategies. What do you think, We go into a country one day, fight, its over, and we go home? If you do, you don't know Jack Shit about life. Something like this takes time. It can't happen in all 1 day or night. Ask many of the soldiers overseas, they will even tell you, We are helping people that really need it. Schools are up in different areas of Iraq. Free voting is happening. They now have an Army that can almost country their own country, When that is complete, we will be out. As long as the terrorists kill their own people and make things harder, We will not leave.

And for someone to claim an "Illegal War". What is their "Illegal" about it? We gave Saddam many chances, he defied every one of them and didn't take us serious. He had it coming. And it was time that a Tyrant died.

[RedLion 0]

After so many years of UN sponsored sanctions and resolutions do oust Saddam, lethal force was the only option available. End of story. Saddam brought this fate onto him and all his criminal followers. This greater conflict has been in the making for many generations and unfortunately there are those who will agree with the actions taken and there are those who will not. We are by far perfect as a nation; just like all World states vying for global position the US is no different from the rest.

Peace will surface one way or another in this region of the world. The question is what can we do as a united front to expedite this process?

[fardwark 0]

The US used the Atomic Bomb on Japan in WW2, Why? Because there was no other option to break the Japanese spirit.

Really? What about the diplomatic talks that the civilian leadership of Japan had with the allies?

I would think that people whose spirits needed breaking (along with two of their largest cities and hundreds of thousands of civilians dying) would not engage in diplomatic talks to end hostilities, but I guess that's just me.

[Messiah 2]

Quote[/b] ]The US used the Atomic Bomb on Japan in WW2, Why? Because there was no other option to break the Japanese spirit.

more like they needed to see what damage it could do... testing on the Yucca flats is one thing, exploding it over an inhabited city is another - one looks impressive, one gives you a true indication of the power of such a weapon - Hiroshima was the guine pig, Nagasaki... another guinea pig, as the two bombs used two different methods to create a nuclear explosion

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]We attacked Al-Qeada's Stronghold (Afghanistan) after those cowards flew 2 airliners full of passengers into 2 buildings full of more innocent people. He said.. "You're with us or Against Us".

Where are the US troops today ?

Apart from being a collective punishment for the people of Afghanistan little has changed. In fact over the last months the situation in the south of Afghanistan has turned into such a mess that the ouztcome of the ISAF mission as a whole is pretty much in danger as even the civillian population that had no sentiments about the ISAf troops at the start of the mission now turn against them in numbers. The US bombing mentality has made the people of Afghanistan an enemy. The Taleban-civillian-kill ratio is the reason number one why the country is in such turmoil now.

Quote[/b] ]I'm sure all these Liberals out here what have gotten a hold on that shit by now. They need every feeding reason they can to complain about what's right and wrong.

You only show that you have a very limited mindset. In europe we don´t have a black-white view on politics or military actions. Fact is that Bush declared a self-defense war on Iraq without having put it through the UN security council which makes per definition a war of agression against a souvereign country and therefore he broke several international treaties. As a republican who puts himself into a messanger-of-god-like-position, he should know better than that. Even after the war was started the top-priority for him should have been to protect the civillians but as we have learned from Fallujah and other places of civillian slaughter where incendiary ammunition has been used we only know that he gave rats about civillian casualties and still does. The US are only busy with stealing money from the Iraquis and putting their fingers on the constant stream of oil. There is no record on humanitarian progress as there never really was an intention to do humanitarian aid. Check electricity , sewage systems and medical support. Than come in again. Talking about schools is ridiculous. Show me numbers.

Quote[/b] ]Don't you know by now their are MANY, Al-Qaeda members in iraq?

In case you´ve missed it, your president was the first to open the doors for them when he chose to disband all border-guards. There was NO AQ presence in Iraq prior to the war, the US have invited them to Iraq and provided them with a country in anarchy.

Quote[/b] ]And, intentional killing thousands? uhh no, We never "intentionally killed thousands of innocents".

Of course "you" did (maybe not you, teenagers are not sent to war, iraqui teenagers have a little less luck there as you brought war to them). Sealing of Fallujah, prohibiting amulances to transport wounded civillians and using incendiary ammunition on civillian areas is intentional killing of thousands. Shoot first, ask later. This sentence has also been heard alot from the guys who took part in US massacres on Iraqui soil. You say it´s not true? Check your facts.

Quote[/b] ]This war in Iraq is a different kind of war. We are fighting in enemy that, is your friend one day, but picks a weapon up the next and shoots at you.

So what ? Over 160 UN peacekeeping/enforcing missions have been and are that way. If you have a knowledge-gap there it´s a flaw in your educational and military-training system, but not the foult of average Iraqui-Joe who gets fired upon by some gun-ho americans who have no idea on how to deal with such situations. You´re troops have been to Somalia, they should have learned that firing into populated areas with chainguns will produce civillian unrest. So don´t keep running and whining that you didn´t know. Everyone knows that. That´s how´s war nowadays, not just since you invaded Iraq.

Quote[/b] ] They now have an Army that can almost country their own country

Best joke ever. You maybe want to read what the US guy who is responsible for recruiting the army says about it.

Quote[/b] ] We gave Saddam many chances, he defied every one of them and didn't take us serious.

Rewriting history, or simply lack of knowledge ?

Iraq was fully compliant with the UN at the time US started the war, that´s why the UN labeled this war illegal.

[SPQR 0]

We are by far perfect as a nation;

...

The question is what can we do as a united front to expedite this process?

Did I understand well the sentence ? You are really a perfect nation ?  

Should we choose between the green fanatism and the Stars 'n Stripes hypocrisy*, between a Shaitan dressed in green and a Satan dressed in white ?

I'd rather become muslim, applying the Jihad on myself in order to improve myself, than becoming a Yankee's puny boot-licking pet

* Some famous exemples:

- Abu Graib,

- missing WMDs,

- "Oups, I did it again, killing tens of iraqi civilians with my bomb, nevertheless they died free in a new democratic state" glorious military actions,

- introduction of a new form of free speech called over there civil war,

- pedophilic republicans protected by their own vertuous kinsmen,...)

[Duke 0]

The U.N. has been against us since we were attacked. Those fuckin idiots didn't even want us attacking the Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. Oil? Wow, that's the typical excuse every liberal or Anti-American uses for such bullshit. Why don't some of you visit Iraq for yourselves, instead of listening to News Medias which only give you what they want you to know, and see for yourselves what the civilians there say/do, and what is being accomplished? The majority of people today are just followers. Not having any in depth knowledge as to what is going on, they just choose to believe in what others believe in.

Oh before I forget. Messiah, We used to Atomic bomb just for shits and giggles to test its power huh? We didnt use it as our last resort to show Japan we werent fuckin around and that we wanted a comply?. I'd like to see what you would have done during those times. We lost men day by day, hour by hour, in those hot jungles, on those fortified islands, in the sands of many hell holes. We were not getting very far, like we were in the European Theatre. Our last resort was giving Japan an example, forcing them to acknowledge the situations of the war. We didnt want to lose anymore men, and we wanted the war ended. Do you think the pilots of the Enola Gay really wanted to drop that bomb? Do you really think our leaders wanted to kill that many people? They tried everything to avoid it. They knew it was our only hope, and they knew what had to be done to end the war. I'd love to have seen what the bitches in the U.N said back then to us after making japan glow in the dark. I could just hear their bitching now. *Yawns*

[Sophion-Black 0]

Quote[/b] ]The US bombing mentality has made the people of Afghanistan an enemy

Thats a bunch of crap and you know it, both the Iraqi and Afghani civvilians are impressed by the precesion of the bombs. the only thing that needs touching up is the intell. that in itself would give the accuracy a perfect status.

Quote[/b] ]The Taleban-civillian-kill ratio is the reason number one why the country is in such turmoil now.

1) The ratio is very differant than what you create. Most of the Talaban is killed while leaving the cities. All the US has to do is have eyes in the sky and hunt them down when they leave. Thats how it was when the US first invaded Afghanistan. The Talaban would simply try leave, but they were killed tired.

2) The only turmoil I hear is that the Talaban is boarder hopping in the south. The rest of the country is relitiveley calm. but there are occasional suicide bombings.

Quote[/b] ]Fact is that Bush declared a self-defense war on Iraq without having put it through the UN security council which makes per definition a war of agression against a souvereign country and therefore he broke several international treaties.

The United States has the right to defend itself. We DO NOT need to pass everything by the UN. The United States itself is a soverign nation. The UN has NO athourity over any nation. To be honest, no one gives a damn of what the UN says. They can piss in their ears till their eyes float and nobody would care. When it comes down do it, the UN is for diplomacy only. and that is what the US did. It pointed out that Iraq was still not in compliance to several resolutions. And took the initiative, along with other soverign nations of the world.

Quote[/b] ]Even after the war was started the top-priority for him should have been to protect the civillians but as we have learned from Fallujah and other places of civillian slaughter where incendiary ammunition has been used we only know that he gave rats about civillian casualties and still does.

It was! you didn't see carpet bombers turn Iraq into a huge crater. You didn't see tanks going through random buildings for the hell of it. you didn't see riflemen barge into common buildings like mosques or schools. They had to get permission from top brass to even think about it. And if you think for a second that there was civillians slaughtered at Fallujah you have one hell of an imagination. US Marines swept through the town waiting to be shot at. they couldn't do a damn thing untill they had concrete proof that their life was in danger.

And incendieary munitions, the US hasn't used them since the signing of Protocol III in 1980 put a stop to it. Because of that, US troops ar NOT issued anything of incendieary nature. In fact your so-called slaughter of civilians in Fallujah amounts to 294 killed by US gunfire, airstrikes, artillery, and armor. That's 16.8% considering the population is 175,000 (most estimites put the current population at around 150,000-200,000). And that is the current count.

more later... but in need to eat  

[Messiah 2]

Quote[/b] ]that's the typical excuse every liberal or Anti-American uses for such bullshit.

thus isnt it reasonable to suggest that everything you say is a typical excuse of a pro-american uses for such bullshit?

there are two sides of the coin remember

Quote[/b] ]Oh before I forget. Messiah, We used to Atomic bomb just for shits and giggles to test its power huh? We didnt use it as our last resort to show Japan we werent fuckin around and that we wanted a comply?. I'd like to see what you would have done during those times. We lost men day by day, hour by hour, in those hot jungles, on those fortified islands, in the sands of many hell holes. We were not getting very far, like we were in the European Theatre. Our last resort was giving Japan an example, forcing them to acknowledge the situations of the war. We didnt want to lose anymore men, and we wanted the war ended. Do you think the pilots of the Enola Gay really wanted to drop that bomb? Do you really think our leaders wanted to kill that many people? They tried everything to avoid it. They knew it was our only hope, and they knew what had to be done to end the war. I'd love to have seen what the bitches in the U.N said back then to us after making japan glow in the dark. I could just hear their bitching now. *Yawns*

I didnt say it was the only reason, it was one of many, but it was a new device that needed to be tested, Japan presented that option.

Your last resort? To what? Were Japan in any serious state to launch an attack anywhere near US mainland or even the Hawaiian islands... no. It wasnt a last resort, it was an attack, only those of deluded ideology would see it otherwise.

I dont doubt didnt want to attack those citys... but why not a naval base, why not an army base... surely those were in consideration. They attacked those cities because they were large enough to test, and large enough to make an impact for the surrender. A simple army base wouldnt have cut it.

Quote[/b] ]We lost men day by day, hour by hour, in those hot jungles, on those fortified islands, in the sands of many hell holes. We were not getting very far, like we were in the European Theatre

everyone lost men day by day, you just seem to take pride in your blind patriotism to the US... there were other countries involved in the war you know... I'll even give you a freebie, please, just say it, I know you're dying to make some comment about how the war would have been lost without the US, and we'd all be speaking German if it wasn't for you... spare me.

Duke, I mean no illtowards you, we dont share the same beliefs or ideologies, its something to do with our education, our up bringings and our general genetic make up. Unfortunatly you seem blindly bound to defend your countries actions whatever the reasoning you can muster. Its not a bad thing, patriotism is somewhat lost in this day and age, but if you want to enter a arena of discussion you need to leave your tunnel and accept other viewpoints...

america isnt always right you know - but I've realised how horribly I've dragged this topic off course, so If you feel the need to continue a discussion on the topic, I'm more than happy to do so via IM, or perhaps via a WW2 thread (if such one exists) - You have your opinion on the matter, I have mine. Neither of us were alive or present to experience the actual event, so everything we say we say as our own feelings on the subject. If we dont agree, then so be it - that is the way of the world

[Baff1 0]

Ok, go kill GW. He´s started an illegal war with weekly changing justifications, made up things like the 911 Iraq tie, AQ in Airaq, etc and he´s guilty of sending 3000 servicemen and women to death. Hes also guilty of having killed about 100.000 iraqui civillians and he´s guilty of not having any plan on how to stop that mess. Kill him, by your reasoning that´s the only option left. He also threatened to use NBC weapons, so kill him. It´s more than a preemptive strike to do it, it´s a logic consequence of your own reasoning. On the big screen the US have been the ONLY ones to use nukes on civillians intentionally. I guess you are in NO position to tell otherts what to do, keeping in mind what a funny record on breaking chartas, agreements and international treaties you have lately.

You want global opposition. You already have it.

The US better shut up before pointing fingers again.

And if the US doesnt? What are you going to do about it? I know what you'll do about it, Nothing.

We will stop buying your goods, stop holidaying in your country. We will stop investing in your companies. Stop propping up your economy.

We won't do it on a national level, we will do it on a personal level.

That's all it takes.

[Baff1 0]

Quote[/b] ]The US bombing mentality has made the people of Afghanistan an enemy

Thats a bunch of crap and you know it, both the Iraqi and Afghani civvilians are impressed by the precesion of the bombs. the only thing that needs touching up is the intell. that in itself would give the accuracy a perfect status.

I don't think they were impressed in a good way.