The Iraq thread 4

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]This young,beautiful blond really was one the good ones.Convincing the US military to help rebuild the homes they destroyed,compensate the famillies they've killed is what really makes a difference,when most people at her age are made only of words and always come short of delivering anything they talk so much about.

Her death is horrible but isn't that giving too much credit?

Quote[/b] ]It seems some people's lust for vengence has caused them to loose all ethical, moral or even religious perspective. Truly such peoples minds run to nothing but evil.

Sadly Walker

That article/page was created in 2002...

[SpeedyDonkey 0]

Oh I saw a thing about her on CNN only a couple of days ago

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Her death is horrible but isn't that giving too much credit?

Actually no,that was exactly what she did throughout her presence in Iraq and Afghanistan.It sounds incredible thinking she risked her life daily to visit famillies in troubled areas and most would think of her to be naive to try and do the things she excelled in,but yet there she was...

Link

Quote[/b] ]Thanks to Ruzicka, the U.S. agreed to help thousands of dirt-poor Iraqis and Afghans rebuild war-shattered lives - and proved that America was about more than guns, bombs and regime change.

"Marla wanted to make this world a better place and she lived that dream every day," said Tony Newman, a longtime friend and nonprofit group staffer.

....

Like a stunning apparition in the war zone, she traveled to dusty villages to personally document hundreds of cases of civilians killed or wounded by U.S. troops.

....

She once buttonholed Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Gen. Tommy Franks on Capitol Hill. While aides gaped, the young aid worker strode alongside the Pentagon powerbrokers and poured out information about a string of deadly incidents.

Soon after, the Pentagon agreed to help the victims.

"I was amazed by how completely incredibly effective she was," said Michael Shellenberger, 33, a friend and fellow activist. "It was a short life, but a life really well lived."

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]That article/page was created in 2002...

I think he was speaking of Avon's wierd need to post that. It's clear from the tone of the WJ page that they consider anyone who admires Fidel Castro and might be a socialist as completely evil, so everyone has their bias.

But the fact is, she was in Iraq and Afghanistan doing actual good out of tragedy, while the writer of Avon's opinion piece is not.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]That article/page was created in 2002...

I think he was speaking of Avon's wierd need to post that. It's clear from the tone of the WJ page that they consider anyone who admires Fidel Castro and might be a socialist as completely evil, so everyone has their bias.

Facts are anoying, especially when the tarnish those rosey images portrayed by an ignorant press.

I was responding more to what her mother said about her:

""I'll remember the love she spread around the world and the good ambassador that she was for her country."

She was defintely NOT a good ambassador for her country. She often rallied against the US.

Neither I nor the article I linked to listed her as "completely evil".

Quote[/b] ]But the fact is, she was in Iraq and Afghanistan doing actual good out of tragedy, while the writer of Avon's opinion piece is not.

LOL! Neither are you. So?

EDIT: Let me sum up by linked to an article whose title conveys what I agree with: Let Us Not Speak Ill of the Dead But Let Us Speak Accurately.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Neither I nor the article I linked to listed her as "completely evil".

She was defintely NOT a good ambassador for her country. She often rallied against the US.

Quote[/b] ]So what is this Global Exchange, which Filkins describes only as "an American organization"? A look at its Web site makes clear it's a far-left outfit that opposed any military intervention in Afghanistan. Blogger Michael Moynihan has more details on Marla Ruzicka, who turns out to be a fervent admirer of Fidel Castro. There's also a "report" on the 2000 election dispute from the World Socialist Web Site, which quotes her as suggesting Republicans are terrorists:

What is the point of the WJ including these parts if not to 1)discredit based on idealogy and 2)make it an evil thing...like being called "liberal"? But its not really surprising given that it is the Wall Street Journal. Not exactly a bastion of anti-capitalism.

Quote[/b] ]She was defintely NOT a good ambassador for her country. She often rallied against the US.

You don't think helping Iraqi's and Afghani's rebuild their home, and getting the military to help (who originally destroyed their homes) is a good thing, or perhaps gives a positive image of the US to those she is helping?

She can only be a good ambassador if she toes the US line? You can easily be a good ambassador by helping others you know....or obviously you don't.

Quote[/b] ]LOL! Neither are you. So?

LOL! I'm not the one trying to discredit or slander someone who is? So?

EDIT: By reading your second article I"m even more confused. So what if she was leftist or even *gasp* socialist? Whats the big deal? So what if she tried to network to get attention to her cause? Why is such information needed in mainstream press coverage?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Actually no,that was exactly what she did throughout her presence in Iraq and Afghanistan.It sounds incredible thinking she risked her life daily to visit famillies in troubled areas and most would think of her to be naive to try and do the things she excelled in,but yet there she was...

That articles fails to mention the reconstruction fund in which she did not create. The reconstruction fund existed before her lobbying. Furthermore, the article tries to demonize the US govt. by saying they do not care about iraqi people but Marla did. Hello...

[Akira 0]

So what if she didn't start the fund?? She drew attention and funds to it. So her good acts don't count because she didn't start it??

I must have missed the part where it demonizes the US. The US blows up people's houses. Marla tried to rebuild them (sometimes with the US help). So whats your point?

[billybob2002 0]

 

So what if she didn't start the fund?? She drew attention and funds to it. So her good acts don't count because she didn't start it??  

I must have missed the part where it demonizes the US. The US blows up people's houses. Marla tried to rebuild them (sometimes with the US help). So whats your point?  

Quote[/b] ]proved that America was about more than guns, bombs and regime change.

BS....taken from my previous post.

Quote[/b] ]The projects provide clean water, waste treatment facilities, roads, bridges, clinics, schools and infrastructure in eight key governorates. More than 360 projects valued at over $313 million are under contract and are employing approximately 5,000 Iraqis. Of these, 200 projects valued at over $52 million have been completed to date, with total work in place valued at over $145 million. The majority of these projects will be completed by July 2005. Those few projects that extend beyond July will be transferred to Iraqi control in order to build Iraqi management capacity.

They (media and others) her giving her too much credit. She gets credit for helping those people but the way how people are painting her is off. They are making her the beauty and the US govt an beast.

[Akira 0]

Riiiiiight...

Anyway, the first link is NY Daily News. You are surpised by the baised writing? I'm not surprised by that writing just like I wasn't surprised by the WJ bit.

In any case, she is helping people, she is rebuilding, and she is giving a good light to the US face...the opposite of the face that blew up the home in the first place. Whats the problem?

What I find priceless, is the demand for accuracy from those same people that didn't demand it at the start of the war.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]The projects provide clean water, waste treatment facilities, roads, bridges, clinics, schools and infrastructure in eight key governorates.

Thing is Billybob like it or not the media tends to give us the situation the ground as it is rather then surreal CentCom releases.US in Iraq is exactly about guns,bombs and regime change.Just like denoir said,your classical occupation by an invader scenario.

IRAQ: Doctors fear hepatitis outbreak

Quote[/b] ]

BAGHDAD, 18 Apr 2005 (IRIN) - Doctors in the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, fear an outbreak of hepatitis, following an increase in cases reported by the Infectious Diseases Control Centre (IDSC) last week.

Officials said the increase was due to poor sewage control, particularly in suburbs of the city.

Dr Abdul Jalil, director of the IDSC, told IRIN that there had been a 30 percent increase in hepatitis cases in March 2005 compared to the same period in 2004, and that open sewers and polluted water were exacerbating the problem.

Staff at the IDCC said that in March 2004, there were 615 cases of hepatitis registered, compared to 899 cases in the same month this year. In addition, last August, 1,298 cases were diagnosed, a sharp rise due to the weather conditions.

Jalil added that there had also been an increase in typhoid, tuberculosis (TB) and other water-borne diseases. He called for immediate action to control the situation.

"The system of sanitation in the capital should be fixed quickly. The Ministry of Public Works is moving slowly to solve this problem and it’s affecting the health of Iraqis," Jalil explained.

In addition, Baghdad still has old sewage and water channels which haven't been repaired. The channels often run beside each other and lack of electricity has caused water to be pumped at low pressure, causing sewage to seep into the fresh water delivery system.

According to Dr Haydar Shamari, director of the Iraqi National Centre for Blood Donation (INCBD), hepatitis was the first disease detected in contaminated blood samples. He added that hepatitis C, was very common, followed by type B, which is worrying doctors.

No vaccine is currently available to prevent hepatitis C and treatment for chronic hepatitis C is too expensive for most people in developing countries, according to the World Health Organization (WHO).

Jalil added that they were expecting a possible outbreak in suburbs of the capital because sewage systems had not been restored in many areas and the summer season would exacerbate the spread of the diseases since it creates a more suitable environment for the virus to thrive in.

The Ministry of Environment (MoE) is now responsible for sewage and water purification requirements in the country: a task that was previously assigned to the Ministry of Health (MoH).

This change has also developed a delay in work, according to MoH staff.

“They have to start everything from scratch since it’s a new experience for them. No one can be an expert on the first day and it will require time for them to specialise on this issue, but in the meantime Iraqi people are suffering," Youssef Sinawee, a senior officer at the MoH, told IRIN.

Officials are also concerned about lack of investment in the sector and very difficult communication between provinces, which can delay weekly reporting of hepatitis cases in the country.

Dr Munir Yehia, of the prevention department at the INCBD, told IRIN that as well as rubbish on the streets and open sanitation disposal systems, people who handle food at restaurants without any protection were also at high risk of spreading hepatitis.

"Our workers don’t know how to handle food properly and it’s the most common situation found in Iraq today. A law should be established to force them to offer food with more hygiene and safety in mind," Yehia added.

According to a United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) report from 2004, disruption to drinking water supplies during the 2003 conflict meant that roughly 20 percent of urban households had no access to safe water.

In addition, over 50 percent of loss in water distribution networks was due to old age and corrosion of pipes, illegal tapping of water and collateral damage from the last conflict and looting. In rural areas, more than half of households are without fresh water or adequate sanitation, according to the UNICEF report.

Jalil added that medicine for the treatment of patients, particularly for hepatitis B, could not be found in the country. He said they had asked Kimadia, the national drug company of the MoH, for help but there was a shortage of medicines and funds.

The WHO in Iraq told IRIN that it had offered to help the MoH by supplying tablets for water purification and awareness for families on how to prevent such diseases from spreading. But health officials maintain that all efforts are insignificant if the main cause of the disease, poor sewage treatment in the country, isn’t rectified.

Looks like the Iraqis in the capital are already seeing the "fruits" of the ambitious reconstruction project due to to be finished in no longer then 3 months.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]What I find priceless, is the demand for accuracy from those same people that didn't demand it at the start of the war.

At the time it was preceived accurate and has been noted it was not later on.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]She was defintely NOT a good ambassador for her country. She often rallied against the US.

So according to you being a good ambasador is blindly following you government's policy however clear it's mistakes and dare not question it's actions.

It goes in stark contrast with helping civillian victims of the countries you invaded,famillies which houses you've destroyed and children you orphaned.

If so,let me be the first to praise her for being a "bad ambasador to US".

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Thing is Billybob like it or not the media tends to give us the situation the ground as it is rather then surreal CentCom releases.US in Iraq is exactly about guns,bombs and regime change.Just like denoir said,your classical occupation by an invader scenario.

CentCom releases..lol That was the State department report, reported by law, to Congress.

Taken from NYT article... http://www.nytimes.com/2005....ct.html

Quote[/b] ]

The need for the reallocation of money grew not only from unanticipated security costs but also from what many experts said were flawed assumptions by Pentagon planners and Congress when they set out to pepper Iraq with large infrastructure projects built by American companies. The latest changes mean less money being spent on building new facilities and more on training and maintenance, with less reliance on expensive Western firms and more on smaller local firms.

Quote[/b] ]

In addition, American aid officials in Iraq now recognize that refurbished electrical and water plants do not help many people until new wiring and pipes are run into individual homes - less technological but in some ways more arduous tasks. Thus, between poor management of regional grids and chaotic local wiring, urban residents still suffer frequent blackouts even as electrical power capacity climbs.

Quote[/b] ]

As of March 29, about two-thirds of the $18.4 billion voted by Congress in 2003 had been committed to actual projects, and only $4.2 billion had been disbursed for work completed.Earlier in 2003, the administration spent an additional $2.5 billion of American funds on reconstruction, and the coalition authority also spent billions in Iraqi funds on oil field and other repairs.

Contractors have had to devote as much as 25 percent of their spending to security, and construction work often has been halted.

Quote[/b] ]The administration is "shifting work to Iraqi subcontractors that are somewhat less susceptible to insurgency attacks and are not burdened by the same heavy overhead expenses of foreign firms," the State Department report said.

Until the security problem is taken of, reconstruction will be slow.

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]What I find priceless, is the demand for accuracy from those same people that didn't demand it at the start of the war.

At the time it was preceived accurate and has been noted it was not later on.

Actually no, that's utter nonsense.  The intel on Iraq was NOT deemed accurate by the rest of the world and by MANY INTELLIGENCE ANALYSTS within our very own intelligence agencies and military.  There have been numerous documentaries that have found dozens of high ranking former civilian and military intelligence officials who have come out against Bush saying that they wrote VERY VERY strong reports against the pro-war intel reports that were paraded by the Bush administration before the war to the public and to the UN.   There also have been numerous reports of the CIA and other agencies forcing out analysts and employees who do not fully support the policies of the Bush administration.  This is a grey area because while technically the CIA's job is to support US military operations and foreign policy, it also is supposed to be a non-partisan entity.  These two goals are currently in opposition.  If the intelligence data gathered does not support Bush administration goals is that intelligence officer not following their duty to support US foreign policy?  Are they traitors because they're not concentrating on finding data that supports American foreign policy?  Is it their job to find accurate factual intelligence or their job to lie and make false reports if it fullfills the requirement of supporting our foreign policy objectives?

An example of this dilemma was when that crap about the report on the African Uranium smuggling by Iraq was made public.  This was when Condaliza Rice lied outright in front of the American people even though she was told beforehand that the intelligence was most likely fraudulent.  The former ambassador in charge of the investigation had his wife's CIA status made public by the Bush administration in retaliation for him coming forward and supporting the data that the intel report was fraudulent.   And yet conservatives Republicans still support Bush 120% even after he does these kind of ugly tactics that ultimately have created a very large rift between the CIA and the Bush administration.  This one reason why the Bush administration is strongly in favor of totally reorganizing or dismantling the CIA.   But if all they want is Pro-Republican, Pro War intelligence then they need to fire alot more analysts and have CIA recruiters who only hire CIA employees who are Bush supporters and treat all other applicants as security risks because they may not agree with current American foreign policy based upon factual evidence.

Akira hit the nail on the head.  It is pure hypocricy that you demand total accuracy and infact demonization of this woman when you conservatives REFUSE to hold your own Republican party and the Bush administration to that same standard.

She rallied against her government?  Big deal.  Guess what... Pro Life protesters are RALLYING AGAINST THEIR GOVERMENT.

Are they traitors to who should be demonized?  

She liked Castro?  Big deal.  There are some things about Castro's government that he has done right.  While his economic policies are miserable failures, and his human rights record is not rosy by any stretch of the imagination, his education and socialized medical programs are pretty damn efficient considering what they do with VERY little money.

Would it be better if she said that she admired a US supported dictator instead?  

Political disent is NOT unpatriotic.  Disent IS PATRIOTIC.  Without disent you get a authoritarian type of government with a population that obeys like a bunch of sheep like you had with Germans during WWII.  

In fact democracy is founded upon disent.  Without balance, bad things happen and miniority rights are trampled.  Right now that anti-fillibuster law that the Republicans want to pass is an example of the fight against checks and balances.

It will almost certainly come back to haunt the Republican party once the Democrats get back into power...unless of coarse the pussy democrats refuse to reform the electronic voting system which currently is totally open to electronic voting fraud on the part of the voting machine manufacturers.

But I guarantee you that if democrats get back into power, Republicans will hate themselves for taking away the power of the miniority to fillibuster.  This will give the power of any future liberal majority the power to saturate the government with ultra-liberal appointees.   I can guarantee you that when that happens, conservatives will be crying and whining like babies about not having the fillibuster.

But back to Marla Ruzicka...

In my opinion this young woman is a FANTASTIC REPRESENTATIVE of the United States.  These programs holding the US military accountable for innocent deaths is EXACTLY what is needed in Iraq.  Her death is a MASSIVE blow to the efforts to win over hearts and minds of Iraqi victims of the war in Iraq.  

Yes there was reconstruction funds but who else was brave enough to collect the data on innocent Afghanis and Iraqis who were injured, killed, or lost property from US military action?  

To me this woman is a true American hero and an international hero for doing what she was doing.  Would you rather see Iraqis who were hurt by US military action treated all as terrorists?  

We can continue to do so and if we do that is in fact what they will become.   Her efforts faught against this mentality and the fact that she was never kidnapped and wasn't the target of that suicide bombing speaks volumes of her work and the trust Iraqis had in her.

It seriously pisses me off that many of you conservatives here are trying to portray her as an American traitor.  

If she is a traitor, then half of all Americans who oppose the war and all those who question the holy grail of American style capitalism are traitors.  All those who dare suggest socialized anything are then traitors.  

I seriously hope American never turns into that kind of country where individuals who care more about humanity then nationalistic pride and agendas are demonized and treated as traitors.   If that ever happens, then in my opinion America is no longer America.  It would then be a fascist government ruled by fear and intimidation.

I prefer to fight to build an America that honours freedom of political expression, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, seperation of church and state, and that is the standard bearer for human rights and who is at the forefront in the fight against oppression in the world.

I am proud that my country stood up against Serbian extreme nationalism although I'm not that proud of some of the stupid ways in which we did that.  But our heart was in the right place and the results have been worth the costs because we did it for the right reasons and people are not killing each other like mad over there now (although tensions remain). Lessons learned were then applied successfuly by the late Macedonian president (whos name I forget) to thwart KLA style Albanian seperatists.  I am also proud of the American role in kicking out the Taliban in Afghanistan and putting Afghanistan on a path towards democracy.  Its just a shame that such a worthy venture has been totally undermined by our needless war in Iraq which has sucked away billions of dollars desperately needed in Afghanistan not to mention in American itself.

At any rate, I can promise you that if I am hired by the US government, and if I am sent to Iraq, I will to the best of my ability try to encourage many of the same projects that Marla Ruzicka was pushing.  She may have not organized all of the projects but from most reports she was instrumental in showing where existing funding could be best utilized...this was done by her actually risking her life and doing research amongst people who very easily could have killed her if they didn't trust her.

I don't care if she didn't raise the funds.  I don't care if she had parties in Kabul.  The US military, NGO's, and pretty much all foreigners in Afghanistan have plenty of parties.  Does that make them less legitimate?  The fact of the matter is that these funds were going to where they were needed and unless you can document that this is a lie it is pointless to try and smear her name and portray her as some kind of traitor to her country just because some blog calls her a traitor.    She was a humanitarian first and foremost and that goes beyond any petty politics.  So to me she is most definitely a hero and a true martyr for humanity.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]What I find priceless, is the demand for accuracy from those same people that didn't demand it at the start of the war.

At the time it was preceived accurate and has been noted it was not later on.

That's nonsense. It was perceived as unfounded speculation, and that was exactly what it was.

That Saddam had no WMD wasn't a certainty either, but there was no evidence that he had. And the last UN inspections (when they really had access to everything) strongly indicated that Saddam didn't have any significant WMD resources.

It was quite obvious early on that TBA wasn't interested in the actual situation - that they were making accusations that was nothing but empty rhetoric. And this was obvious well before Powell's UN speech. You can check the pre-war Iraq thread for plenty of evidence of that.

Now, it is true that the American public and media was fairly convinced - especially after the Powell speech, but not the rest of the world. Not really surprising given the enormous amount of propaganda that the US public was bombarded with. I'm not ruling out that the Bush regime actually started believing their own spin and lies, but that was certainly not true for the rest of the world.

As a little flashback, I found these in my image directory. I posted them on 2003-02-04, a day or so after the Powell presentation, mocking his silly and unconvincing PowerPoint presentation:

[Akira 0]

Oh my god that is priceless!!!

Good one denoir!

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]What I find priceless, is the demand for accuracy from those same people that didn't demand it at the start of the war.

At the time it was preceived accurate and has been noted it was not later on.

Good ole Thesaurus

Quote[/b] ]Entry Word: perceive

Function: verb

Text: 1 to have a vague awareness of <I thought I perceived a problem, but I wasn't sure> -- see FEEL 1

2 to make note of (something) through the use of one's eyes <perceived that it was going to be a nice day> -- see SEE 1

3 to recognize the meaning of <I perceive your point, but I still disagree> -- see COMPREHEND 1

TBA believed in set of intel and others believed in to another being accurate. Furthermore, by using believed, I'm guessing because I cannot read the minds of TBA.

Quote[/b] ]It is pure hypocricy that you demand total accuracy and infact demonization of this woman when you conservatives REFUSE to hold your own Republican party and the Bush administration to that same standard.

My Republican Party...bah. Anyway, how did I demonize that woman? I only commented what was said in that article. Just because I did not like beauty and the beast crap does not mean I demonized that woman. I gave credit to her for her actions. Jesus, you are starting to blend avon's post with mine. Anyway, I have criticize Bush before on this board on one thing, illegal immigration. And that is only one of my issues with him. BTW, I'm not conservative. Just because I voted for Bush (that hurts doesn't it) does not make me a conservative. I like some democrats...

Quote[/b] ]It will almost certainly come back to haunt the Republican party once the Democrats get back into power...unless of coarse the pussy democrats refuse to reform the electronic voting system which currently is totally open to electronic voting fraud on the part of the voting machine manufacturers.

Cannot accept that Republicans win/won "fairly".

Quote[/b] ]She liked Castro? Big deal. There are some things about Castro's government that he has done right. While his economic policies are miserable failures, and his human rights record is not rosy by any stretch of the imagination, his education and socialized medical programs are pretty damn efficient considering what they do with VERY little money.

Not to compare/piss people off but that saying like Hitler had a bad human rights record but he helped turn around poor ole Germany with little/none outside support. I hate it when people point to Castro's education and medical programs. Without those programs, his ass would of been gone along time ago.

[miles teg 1]

Won fairly???  Dude... have you tried looking at some of the stastical differences between exit polls and actual votes.  In many key districts they are WAAAAY higher then was ever seen before in past elections.  There was some messed up stuff going on but its impossible to prove because guess what.  Diebold electronics makes most of the voting machines and there is NO paper trail and NO access to the operating system except by Diebold electronics employees.  Kinda funny when Diebold electronics is a HUGE Republican party contributor.  

But enought that.  You're happy your boy is in office so I'm sure you don't care cuz the guys with the "white hats" are in in your opinion.

As for your disagreements with Bush's immigration policies... well good for you.  I hope you seriously begin to examine Bush's economic ideologies that drive his views on immigration.  I can say for one thing that he is not anti-Immigration because he knows that cheap Mexican labor = maximum profits for corporations.

Its really as simple as that and anyone in the construction industry in Texas can tell you as much.

Also comparing Castro to Hitler (or anyone to Hitler) is a REALLY old and very lame attempt at delegitimizing one's arguement.  Generally when people starting comparing someone to Hitler that's a pretty good sign that they can't debate the matter.  Hitler killed MILLIONS of people.  Yeah Castro killed some people but nowhere even close to the horrific numbers that Hitler had killed nor for anything even close to the reasons that Hitler had all those people killed.  Castro's executions were politically based...Hitler's genocide was racially/hatred based.   Do you have information on the failure of Castro's education and medical systems?  If so feel free to post.  Educate me.   If not, don't try to demonize me now for saying Castro has a well thought out education/medical system when I very cleary said that his human rights record is NOT good.   I'm not some crazy Marxist Castro supporter.   I am a strong supporter of him resigning and passing on the reigns to reform minded Cuban leaders,  however I must give credit where credit is due.  

Hell, without the current Cuban embargo (toughened under Bush Jr.) Castro's ass would be gone from power. End the Embargo and open up Cuba to trade and watch American influence blossum quicker then you can say McDonalds... followed quickly by a new brand of Cuban Euro-style mix of capitalism and socialism.

But back on topic. Maybe Avon Lady dispised her more then you, but you seemed to not have a very high regard for Marla Ruzicka.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Also comparing Castro to Hitler (or anyone to Hitler) is a REALLY old and very lame attempt at delegitimizing one's arguement. Generally when people starting comparing someone to Hitler that's a pretty good sign that they can't debate the matter. Hitler killed MILLIONS of people. Yeah Castro killed some people but nowhere even close to the horrific numbers that Hitler had killed nor for anything even close to the reasons that Hitler had all those people killed. Castro's executions were politically based...Hitler's genocide was racially/hatred based. Do you have information on the failure of Castro's education and medical systems? If so feel free to post. Educate me. If not, don't try to demonize me now for saying Castro has a well thought out education/medical system when I very cleary said that his human rights record is NOT good. I'm not some crazy Marxist Castro supporter. I am a strong supporter of him resigning and passing on the reigns to reform minded Cuban leaders, however I must give credit where credit is due.

I didn't say his education/medical programs were a failure but the reason he still has power/influence. How I'm demonizing you? I just hate it when people bring up those programs. Furthermore, I said Hitler had bad human rights record and also his actions/influence changed the German infrastructure (roads and etc.). Castro is still a bad guy in my eyes.

[theavonlady 2]

But back on topic.  Maybe Avon Lady dispised her more then you, but you seemed to not have a very high regard for Marla Ruzicka.

I never said I despised her but, yes, I do not have a high regard for her, even for all the good she did. That's all.

And I'm just laughing at the election exit poll conspiracy being dug up from the crypt.

[Balschoiw 0]

At least she uncovered another US lie just before she died. BTW Avon, you are somehow funny. You have a nice, political correct link in your sig

It´s funny that you have no respect for what that women did. I guess once you´ve reached that level of devotion to the matter you can speak again...

Anyway, here is what she has to tell us:

Aid worker uncovered America's secret tally of Iraqi civilian deaths

Quote[/b] ]20 April 2005

A week before she was killed by a suicide bomber, humanitarian worker Marla Ruzicka forced military commanders to admit they did keep records of Iraqi civilians killed by US forces.

Tommy Franks, the former head of US Central Command, famously said the US army "don't do body counts", despite a requirement to do so by the Geneva Conventions.

But in an essay Ms Ruzicka wrote a week before her death on Saturday and published yesterday, the 28-year-old revealed that a Brigadier General told her it was "standard operating procedure" for US troops to file a report when they shoot a non-combatant.

She obtained figures for the number of civilians killed in Baghdad between 28 February and 5 April, and discovered that 29 had been killed in firefights involving US forces and insurgents. This was four times the number of Iraqi police killed.

"These statistics demonstrate that the US military can and does track civilian casualties," she wrote. "Troops on the ground keep these records because they recognise they have a responsibility to review each action taken and that it is in their interest to minimise mistakes, especially since winning the hearts and minds of Iraqis is a key component of their strategy."

Sam Zia-Zarifi, deputy director of the Asia division of Human Rights Watch, the group for which Ms Ruzicka wrote the report, said her discovery "was very important because it allows the victims to start demanding compensation". He added: "At a policy level they have never admitted they keep these figures."

Exactly how many Iraqi civilians have been killed in the last two years is unclear. Iraq Body Count, a group that monitors casualty reports, says at least 17,384 have died. But the group bases its totals only on deaths reported by the media, and says it can therefore only "be a sample" of the total actually killed. Its website says: "It is likely that many if not most civilian casualties will go unreported by the media. That is the sad nature of war."

A peer-reviewed report published last year in The Lancet and based on an extrapolation of data suggested that 100,000 civilians may have been killed during the invasion and its aftermath. One of the report's author, Dr Richard Garfield, professor of nursing at Columbia University, said: "Of course they keep records and of course they pretend they don't. Why is it important to keep the numbers of those killed? Well, why was it important to record the names of those people killed in the World Trade Centre? It would have been inconceivable not to. These people have lives of value.

"We are still fighting [to record] the Armenian genocide. Until people have names and are counted they don't exist in a policy sense."

Ms Ruzicka, from California, was killed in Baghdad after her car was caught in the blast of a suicide bomber who attacked a convoy of security contractors on the road to the city's airport. She was in Iraq heading, Civic, the organisation she set up to record and document civilians killed or injured by the US military, and to seek compensation. She carried out a similar project in Afghanistan.

In her report, she wrote from Iraq: "In my dealings with the US military officials here, they have shown regret and remorse for the deaths and injuries of civilians. Systematically recording and publicly releasing civilian casualty numbers would assist in helping the victims who survive to piece their lives back together."

Colleagues of Ms Ruzicka at Civic (Campaign for Innocent Victims In Conflict) have vowed to continue her work. April Pedersen, a friend, said: "We are all committed to ensuring the work that Marla did is going to continue." Ms Ruzicka, whose funeral service is to be in California on Saturday, was also remembered on Capitol Hill where Senator Patrick Leahy, with whom Ms Ruzicka worked to achieve almost $20m in appropriations to help victims in Afghanistan and Iraq, paid tribute to her.

He said: "I want to... pay tribute to a remarkable young woman from Lakeport, California. In my 31 years as a United States Senator I have met lots of interesting and accomplished people from all over the world. We all have. Nobel prize winners, heads of state, people who have achieved remarkable and even heroic things in their lives. I have never met anyone like Marla Ruzicka." Meanwhile the Pentagon maintained its position that it did not keep numbers of civilians killed in Iraq.

'The public must know how many have died'

This is an edited extract of an article written by Marla Ruzicka a week before her death:

In my two years in Iraq, the one question I am asked the most is: "How many Iraqi civilians have been killed by American forces?" The American public has a right to know how many Iraqis have lost their lives since the start of the war and as hostilities continue.

In a news conference at Bagram air base in Afghanistan in March 2002, General Tommy Franks said: "We don't do body counts." His words outraged the Arab world.

During the Iraq war, as US troops pushed toward Baghdad, counting civilian casualties was not a priority for the military. Since 1 May 2003, when President Bush declared major combat operations over and the US military moved into "stability operations", most units began to keep track of civilians killed at checkpoints or during patrols by US soldiers.

Here in Baghdad, a brigadier general explained to me that it is standard procedure for US troops to file a spot report when they shoot a non-combatant. It is in the military's interest to release these statistics.

A number is important not only to quantify the cost of war, but as a reminder of those whose dreams will never be realised in a free and democratic Iraq.

Civil aid workers are often a pain in the ass for local military contingents as they do monitor what they do. But their primary motivation is and was to help those who don´t have the voice to make themselves heard. This is what she did and she was very good in her job. So my respect goes to to the actions she did. To undermine her personality has nothing to do with the good things she actually achieved. Maybe you can separate that one day....

She found out that US military indeed keeps a record of killed civillians and she wanted the military to publish those facts as families could demand money from the US for their killed relatives. Bad thing ?

[theavonlady 2]

It´s funny that you have no respect for what that women did.

That's a lie. Go ahead and show us where I said that.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ] I do not have a high regard for her, even for all the good she did.

Wish granted.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ] I do not have a high regard for her, even for all the good she did.

Wish granted.

Not having high regard form someone while stating that she did good is NO respect for the "good she did"?

Twist things around a little more, please.