The Iraq thread 4

[theavonlady 2]

Bals, I agree with some of your points and not with others.

Once again, what happened, what people saw, what people assumed - it's all speculation here.

For example, the speed. The soldiers on patrol have to make some estimate as to whether a car is speeding or not. Obviously 10kph is not. What about 50? Or 70? And on this road?

I'm not there - neither are you.

If the soldiers erred, address the problem, see if soldier's should/could react differently and implement changes in procedures accordingly.

If the Italians erred, was it intentional? Was it a lack of knowledge (posted speed? location? )?

I'm glad you all know in advance the Americans are guilty. I don't. Sorry.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Is it wrong to jump to one's country's defence AFTER most everyone else here has passed guilty judgement against it?

That´s not true !!!

And even if you repeat it 500 times it will be not true. Noone has made any judgement on the whole deal.

The only one making judgements right now is you.

If you don´t stop that anti US communism bull when you run out of ideas or ground to talk about, you better remain silent.

Edit:

Avon, the only one using the combination "Americans guilty" is you. Funny...not.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]

Is it wrong to jump to one's country's defence AFTER most everyone else here has passed guilty judgement against it?

That´s not true !!!

And even if you repeat it 500 times it will be not true. Noone has made any judgement on the whole deal.

From the very first post on the subject:

EDIT: Not to mention this was at a checkpoint during her being handed over to the US. An Italian intelligence officer killed to? <span style='color:red'>Sounds like an 18 year old itchy trigger finger to me.</span>

Judgement from post number one. And it doesn't take much to post the remaining kangaroo court judges opinions here as well.

Who are you fooling?

Quote[/b] ]The only one making judgements right now is you.

Yes. My judgement is that it's impossible to assign responsibility to either side without knowing the facts.

Quote[/b] ]If you don´t stop that anti US communism bull when you run out of ideas or ground to talk about, you better remain silent.

Another good communist trying to shut mouths. Congrats!

Quote[/b] ]Edit:

Avon, the only one using the combination "Americans guilty" is you. Funny...not.

No. I stated that as a possibility.

Bye folks. Rant on.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Judgement from post number one. And it doesn't take much to post the remaining kangaroo court judges opinions here.

Quote (Akira @ Mar. 04 2005,23:24)

EDIT: Not to mention this was at a checkpoint during her being handed over to the US. An Italian intelligence officer killed to? Sounds like an 18 year old itchy trigger finger to me.

And 8 Posts later...by me:

Quote[/b] ]Well, if they were indeed speeding towards a checkpoint, then there is little excuse for it. Though why anyone would still speed toward a checkpoint is beyond me.

What time does the sun set in Bagdad? Would "arm and hand" signals really be visible at 855pm?

And some 10 posts ago....again...by me:

Quote[/b] ]The bottom line is I imagine that both sides hold some culpability in the tragedy, but the American's have to stop being so damn free and quick to shoot anything that moves or "seems suspicious."

Quoted in your own reply.

Quote[/b] ] I've already stated that both are most likely at fault, but you seem incapable of even acknowledging that the Americans might have been at fault.

Perhaps you should show the whole history instead of the one that fits your needs and views? I know thats a tall order for you. So where exactly is my anti-American writing? I think you are too used to playing the "everyone's picking on me" card.

Quote[/b] ]Is it wrong to jump to one's country's defence AFTER most everyone else here has passed guilty judgement against it? You're one of the jumpers here - not me.

Again. Read above. Shows you don't actually read posts before you hit the reply button.

Quote[/b] ]I am counterposting people like you who are passing judgement based on pure speculation and that judgement consistantly is anti-American.

Again. I already stated in the post that you jumped on that both sides are to blame. Perhaps you should actually start reading?

Quote[/b] ]LOL! We should all shut up and accept your accusative questions - that's what they were.

Accusative? Since when is speculation "accusative"? Only in Avon's world I suppose where the American's will always be the white knights capable of no wrong.

Again. I wish you would actually read the posts you reply to.

Quote[/b] ]Yes. My judgement is that it's impossible to assign responsibility to either side without knowing the facts.

So then what is your point of pointing the blame consistently at the Italians? Sounds like you already have passed judgement to me.

Quote[/b] ]Another good communist trying to shut mouths. Congrats!

I see Avon has officially reverted to 10 years old.

Quote[/b] ]No. I stated that as a possibility.

As has everyone else. Equally about the Italians as well. You are the only one consistently stating and attempting to prove that the Americans could not possibly be at fault.

EDIT: Tags hate me

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]And it doesn't take much to post the remaining kangaroo court judges opinions here as well.

Do so, don´t talk about it, but do so.

And even the quote from akira is no judgement. So where´s your point ?

Quote[/b] ]Who are you fooling?

I´m only countering your biased, unfounded accusations and generalizations you never fail to offer us when you run out of debateable facts.

Quote[/b] ]Another good communist trying to shut mouths. Congrats!

Yeah whatever....

Avon as usual.

Quote[/b] ]No. I stated that as a possibility.

Why do you hate US so much ?

[ralphwiggum 6]

on the question of hydroplaning(sp?), i've done it with speeds of 50mph on a local road. some purposely,(in my younger days ) some by sheer stupidity.

the condition of the road surface plays a part in whether you hydropane or not.

[SpongeBob 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ex-Marine Says Public Version of Saddam Capture Fiction

United Press International

A former U.S. Marine who participated in capturing ousted Iraqi President Saddam Hussein said the public version of his capture was fabricated.

Ex-Sgt. Nadim Abou Rabeh, of Lebanese descent, was quoted in the Saudi daily al-Medina Wednesday as saying Saddam was actually captured Friday, Dec. 12, 2003, and not the day after, as announced by the U.S. Army.

"I was among the 20-man unit, including eight of Arab descent, who searched for Saddam for three days in the area of Dour near Tikrit, and we found him in a modest home in a small village and not in a hole as announced," Abou Rabeh said.

"We captured him after fierce resistance during which a Marine of Sudanese origin was killed," he said.

He said Saddam himself fired at them with a gun from the window of a room on the second floor. Then they shouted at him in Arabic: "You have to surrender. ... There is no point in resisting."

"Later on, a military production team fabricated the film of Saddam's capture in a hole, which was in fact a deserted well," Abou Rabeh said.

Abou Rabeh was interviewed in Lebanon.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ex-Marine Says Public Version of Saddam Capture Fiction

United Press International

A former U.S. Marine who participated in capturing ousted Iraqi President Saddam Hussein said the public version of his capture was fabricated.

Ex-Sgt. Nadim Abou Rabeh, of Lebanese descent, was quoted in the Saudi daily al-Medina Wednesday as saying Saddam was actually captured Friday, Dec. 12, 2003, and not the day after, as announced by the U.S. Army.

"I was among the 20-man unit, including eight of Arab descent, who searched for Saddam for three days in the area of Dour near Tikrit, and we found him in a modest home in a small village and not in a hole as announced," Abou Rabeh said.

"We captured him after fierce resistance during which a Marine of Sudanese origin was killed," he said.

He said Saddam himself fired at them with a gun from the window of a room on the second floor. Then they shouted at him in Arabic: "You have to surrender. ... There is no point in resisting."

"Later on, a military production team fabricated the film of Saddam's capture in a hole, which was in fact a deserted well," Abou Rabeh said.

Abou Rabeh was interviewed in Lebanon.

Only person killed on Dec. 12, 2003 was in the 82nd AB.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/fallen/oif/oif-marines.html

Nobody died on the Dec. 12, 2003 was a Marine.

Anyway, it was the 4th ID (Army) that got him...

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Only person killed on Dec. 12, 2003 was in the 82nd AB.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/fallen/oif/oif-marines.html

Nobody died on the Dec. 12, 2003 was a Marine.

Anyway, it was the 4th ID (Army) that got him...

If the story about his capture is made up, then why would there be any mention of this "20 man unit" that he belonged to?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Only person killed on Dec. 12, 2003 was in the 82nd AB.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/fallen/oif/oif-marines.html

Nobody died on the Dec. 12, 2003 was a Marine.

Anyway, it was the 4th ID (Army) that got him...

If the story about his capture is made up, then why would there be any mention of this "20 man unit" that he belonged to?  

Quote[/b] ]

"We captured him after fierce resistance during which a Marine of Sudanese origin was killed," he said.

No Marine (doesn't matter what unit) was killed on that day or in that month.

I would think the Marines would had like to be ones that captured Saddam because of the pr. It is ridiculous that the Marines would allow the Army to take the credit.

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]No Marine (doesn't matter what unit) was killed on that day or in that month.

I would think the Marines would had like to be ones that captured Saddam because of the pr. It is ridiculous that the Marines would allow the Army to take the credit.

So would I, but the Marines would have little say about it, especially such a high-profile capture like Saddam, which would undoubtedly be controlled from up high.

Don't get me wrong, I think its rubbish, but the problem with the story is that it is not provable either way, and just adds to suspicion towards the US in Arab countries (as it is originally from an Arab paper).

[quicksand 0]

My instinct also tells me the story is bogus as it has the hallmarks of a clever lie build up-it discrediting US presence in Iraq even further but then again...

Army report confirms Psy-ops staged Saddam statue toppling

Quote[/b] ]Jul 3, 2004 - An internal Army study of the war in Iraq has confirmed that the infamous toppling of the statue of Saddam Hussein in Firdos Square in central Baghdad on April 9, 2003 was stage-managed by American troops and not a spontaneous reaction by Iraqis. According to the study, a Marine colonel first decided to topple the statue, and an Army psychological operations unit turned the event into a propaganda moment.

At one point during the stunt Marines draped the statue of Saddam Hussein with an American flag. When the crowd reacted negatively to that gesture, the US flag was replaced with a pre-1990 Iraqi flag, missing the words "God is Great," by a sergeant from the psychological operations unit. The Marines brought in cheering Iraqi children in order to make the scene appear authentic, the study said.

Allegations that the event was staged were made in April of last year, mostly by opponents of the war, but were ignored or ridiculed by the US government and most visible media outlets.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Berlesconi has just said the car had halted at the check point it was not even moving.

Quote[/b] ]Italy disputes US hostage account

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has said the car carrying an Italian agent killed by US fire had stopped as soon as it was signalled.

His statement contradicts US accounts of the incident in Iraq in which Nicola Calipari was shot taking freed hostage Giuliana Sgrena to Baghdad airport.

Mr Berlusconi said the US must accept responsibility to restore relations.

He said his government had demanded "maximum co-operation" from the US, and a joint inquiry had been promised.

The US military in Iraq has begun an investigation led by Brig Gen Peter Vangjel into Friday's shooting. It is expected to take up to four weeks to complete.

Relations between the US and Italy have been strained by the incident.

Speaking to the Italian Senate, Mr Berlusconi said: "Only a frank and reciprocal recognition of eventual responsibility is the condition for closure of the incident, which was so irrational and caused so much sorrow."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4333839.stm

Berlesconis is said to be real pissed at the US he was on the phone to the car as it was shot up. There are reports that the conversation that was recorded for the press and is going to be released. Some of the press are already demanding release of the tape apparently several copies were made for the original press release.

The report is also confirmed by the after action report of the surviving Italian agent:

Quote[/b] ]The prime minister said the US military had authorised the Italian journey to the airport.

An agent travelling in the car with Mr Calipari had given an account of events which conflicted with the version given by the US military, he added.

"A light was flashed at the vehicle from 10m away," Mr Berlusconi said. "The driver at this point stopped the car immediately and at the same time there was gunfire for about 10 or 15 seconds.

"A few shots reached the vehicle and another one reached and killed Mr Calipari," he said.

Ibid

Guess that kinda alters things

[edit1]Berlesconi is now saying the the US was fully warned of the Arrival of the freed hostage.

Quote[/b] ]Italian Leader Says U.S. Knew of Rescue Plan

Berlusconi Delineates Mission to Free Reporter

By Alan Cooperman and Walter Pincus

Washington Post Staff Writers

Thursday, March 10, 2005; Page A12

ROME, March 9 -- U.S. military officials in Iraq had approved an Italian intelligence officer's mission to free a kidnapped journalist and were expecting their arrival at Baghdad's airport last Friday when U.S. soldiers opened fire on the Italians at a checkpoint, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said Wednesday.

In a speech, Berlusconi provided new details of how the Italians worked over the past month to free journalist Giuliani Sgrena from her Iraqi kidnappers, only to have the effort end in the death of the Italian intelligence officer who arrived in Baghdad that day to receive her from her captors...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20088-2005Mar9.html

Further this

Quote[/b] ] ...In the weeks after Sgrena was taken hostage in Baghdad on Feb. 4, Italian intelligence officers worked to identify the kidnappers, determine that she was still alive, try to locate her and negotiate her release. Along the way, Fini said, there was a sharing of information with the U.S. Embassy's hostage working group in Baghdad.

Nicola Calipari, a senior intelligence officer familiar with working in Iraq, arrived with a colleague at Baghdad International Airport last Friday. Calipari spent 40 minutes contacting U.S. military authorities in charge of the airport to notify them of his mission and receive a safe-conduct document to move around the airport, according to the Italian leaders...

Ibid

and this

Quote[/b] ] Calipari put the journalist in the back seat of the car, and with his colleague driving, they headed toward the airport where a plane was waiting to take them back to Italy.

With the inside light on, Calipari sat alongside Sgrena and made phone calls to superiors to report his success. One was to an Italian official who was standing next to an American colonel at the airport, the prime minister said Wednesday, addressing the Italian Senate.

Calipari "therefore warned the American military officials of their immediate arrival in the airport zone," Berlusconi said.

Ibid

Totaly contradicts this

Quote[/b] ] U.S. Army Gen. George W. Casey, the top American commander in Iraq, said Tuesday in Washington that he had been unaware last Friday that Italian officials had entered Iraq to rescue Sgrena and said he had heard nothing since to indicate the Italians had told U.S. forces of the car's route...

Ibid

While this is at odds with the statement above from the surviving agent reported on the BBC

Quote[/b] ] In a statement after the shooting, the Army's 3rd Infantry Division said the Italians' car was "traveling at high speeds" and refused to halt at a checkpoint despite attempts by U.S. soldiers to warn the driver to stop "by hand and arm signals, flashing white lights, and firing warning shots in front of the car."

Ibid

Kind Regards Walker

[Akira 0]

RUHROH!

[walker 0]

Hi all

Berlesconi has turned up the heat on the US

Quote[/b] ]Italy demands US punish killers

Italy's foreign minister has demanded the US "identify and punish" those responsible for the death of an Italian intelligence agent in Iraq.

Gianfranco Fini said the US and Italy had different versions of what happened to Nicola Calipari, who died under US fire while escorting a freed hostage.

The US says shots were fired because the vehicle was speeding and did not heed troops' warnings for it to stop.

But Mr Fini said the car was travelling at no more than 40km per hour.

Calipari had also made "all the necessary contacts" with US and Italian officials about the hostage's release and the journey to the airport, he added.

The incident has intensified the already strong Italian opposition to the country's military presence in Iraq and put intense pressure on Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's government to find answers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4328551.stm

It may be that Berlesconi is looking to upcoming elections but this rapid cooling of relations needs more decisive action from TBA or they might be about to loose another ally on the war in Iraq.

Kind Regards Walker

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]

Iraqis Find 41 Bodies Near Syrian Border

2 hours, 19 minutes ago Middle East - AP

By PATRICK QUINN, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Iraqi authorities found 41 decomposed bodies — some bullet-riddled, others beheaded — at sites near the Syrian border and south of the capital, and said Wednesday they included women and children who may have been killed because insurgents thought their families were collaborating with U.S. forces.

In Baghdad, a suicide bomber driving a garbage truck loaded with explosives and at least one other gunman shot their way into a parking lot in an attempt to blow up a hotel used by Western contractors. At least four people, including the attackers and a guard, were killed.

The U.S. Embassy said 30 Americans were among 40 people wounded in the blast. No Americans were killed. In an Internet statement, al-Qaida in Iraq (news - web sites) purportedly claimed responsibility for the attack on the Sadeer hotel, calling it the "hotel of the Jews."

While Sunni Arab insurgents have repeatedly targeted Westerners in Iraq, Shiite Muslims, top Iraqi officials and civil servants, even Muslim women are no longer safe.

Decapitated bodies of women have begun turning up in recent weeks, a note with the word "collaborator" usually pinned to their chests. Three women were gunned down Tuesday in one of Baghdad's Shiite neighborhoods for being alleged collaborators. And in the northern city of Kirkuk, a woman identified as Nawal Mohammed, who worked with U.S. forces, was killed in a drive-by shooting, police said.

The decomposed bodies were found Tuesday after reports of their stench reached authorities.

Twenty-six of the dead were discovered in a field near Rumana, a village 12 miles east of the western city of Qaim, near the Syrian border. Each body was riddled with bullets. The dead were found wearing civilian clothes and one was a woman, police Capt. Muzahim al-Karbouli said.

The other site was south of Baghdad in Latifiya, where Iraqi troops found 15 headless bodies in a building at an abandoned army base, Defense Ministry Capt. Sabah Yassin said.

The bodies included 10 men, three women and two children. Their identities, like the others found in western Iraq, were not known, but insurgents may have viewed them or their relatives as collaborators.

Yassin said some of men found dead in Latifiya were thought to have been part of a group of Iraqi soldiers who were kidnapped by insurgents two weeks ago.

The gruesome discoveries were among 58 new killings in Iraq announced Wednesday, including the death of a U.S. soldier in a Baghdad roadside bombing.

Iraq's interim planning minister, Mahdi al-Hafidh, a Shiite, narrowly escaped death Wednesday after gunmen opened fire on his convoy in the capital. Two of his bodyguards were killed and two others were wounded.

"I'm fine, just sorry about the death of the guards, who were still young," he told state-run Al-Iraqiya TV. "It is a part of the crisis that Iraq is living, but we will keep going for the sake of Iraq, to get rid of terrorism and build a democratic country."

Qataa Abdul Nabi, the director general of the Shiite Endowment, was shot to death Tuesday as he drove home — the second high-ranking member of the Shiite charity to be killed in a week.

A car bombing targeted an American checkpoint outside a base in Habaniyah, 50 miles west of Baghdad, and another exploded near U.S. troops close to Abu Ghraib, just west of the capital.

No other details were available, and the U.S. military could not be reached for comment. It was unclear if the dead U.S. soldier was killed in any of the attacks. The U.S. military said only that a soldier was killed and another was wounded by a bomb as they were patrolling around Baghdad.

As of Tuesday, at least 1,509 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count. At least 1,149 died as a result of hostile action, according to the Defense Department. The figures include four military civilians. The AP count is five higher than the Defense Department's tally, last updated at 10 a.m. EST Tuesday.

From

[quicksand 0]

Prisoners at Abu Ghraib Said Included Kids

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON - A boy no older than 11 was among the children held by the Army at Iraq (news - web sites)'s Abu Ghraib prison, the former U.S. commander of the facility told a general investigating abuses at the prison.

 

Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski did not say what happened to the boy or why he was imprisoned, according to a transcript of her interview with Maj. Gen. George Fay that was released by the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites).

The transcript of the May 2004 interview was among hundreds of pages of documents about Iraq prisoner abuses the group made public Thursday after getting them under the Freedom of Information Act.

Karpinski, who was in charge of Abu Ghraib from July to November 2003, said she often visited the prison's youngest inmates. One boy "looked like he was 8-years-old," Karpinski said.

"He told me he was almost 12," Karpinski said. "He told me his brother was there with him, but he really wanted to see his mother, could he please call his mother. He was crying."

Military officials have acknowledged that some juvenile prisoners had been held at Abu Ghraib, a massive prison built by Saddam Hussein (news - web sites)'s government outside Baghdad. But the transcript is the first documented evidence of a child no older than 11 being held prisoner.

Military officials have said that no juvenile prisoners were subject to the abuses captured in photographs from Abu Ghraib. But some of the men shown being stripped naked and humiliated had been accused of raping a 14-year-old prisoner.

The new documents offer rare details about the children whom the U.S. military has held in Iraq. Karpinski said the Army began holding women and children in a high-security cellblock at Abu Ghraib in the summer of 2003 because the facility was better than lockups in Baghdad where the youths had been held.

The documents include statements from six witnesses who said three interrogators and a civilian interpreter at Abu Ghraib got drunk one night and took a 17-year-old female prisoner from her cell. The four men forced the girl to expose her breasts and kissed her, the reports said. The witnesses — whose names were blacked out of the documents given to the ACLU — said those responsible were not punished.

Another soldier said in January 2004 that troops poured water and smeared mud on the detained 17-year-old son of an Iraqi general and "broke" the general by letting him watch his son shiver in the cold.

On another subject, Karpinski said she had seen written orders to hold a prisoner that the CIA (news - web sites) had captured without keeping records. The documents released by the ACLU quote an unnamed Army officer at Abu Ghraib as saying military intelligence officers and the CIA worked out a written agreement on how to handle unreported detainees. An Army report issued last September said investigators could not find any copies of any such written agreement.

The Pentagon (news - web sites) has acknowledged holding up to 100 "ghost detainees," keeping the prisoners off the books and away from humanitarian investigators of the International Committee of the Red Cross. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said he authorized it because the prisoners were "enemy combatants" not entitled to prisoner of war protections.

The ACLU has sued Rumsfeld on behalf of four Iraqis and four Afghans who say they were tortured at U.S. military facilities. Rumsfeld and his spokesmen have repeatedly said that the defense secretary and his aides never authorized or condoned any abuses.

Six enlisted soldiers have pleaded guilty to military charges for their roles in abuses at Abu Ghraib, and Pvt. Charles Graner Jr. was convicted at a court-martial this year and sentenced to 10 years in prison.

Karpinski, one of the few generals to be criticized in Army detainee reports for poor leadership, quoted several senior generals in Iraq as making callous statements about prisoners.

Karpinski said Maj. Gen. Walter Wodjakowski, then the No. 2 Army general in Iraq, told her in the summer of 2003 not to release more prisoners, even if they were innocent.

"I don't care if we're holding 15,000 innocent civilians. We're winning the war," Karpinski said Wodjakowski told her. She said she replied: "Not inside the wire, you're not, sir."

So let's all try to be objective on this.Apart from US invading a country under false pretenses,killing tens of thousands of Iraqi civillians,it's unability to keep any of it's promises such as security and reconstruction,the prisoners who were sodomised and humiliated in the most outrageous manner deemed by their religion,2 consequtive sieges that left yet thousands more Iraqis killed,a city in ruins and mosques destroyed..

Now we also have soldiers filmed killing a wounded Iraqi fighter in a mosque,beating one to death in Ramadi,juveniles being held prisoners,a 17 years old being held and tortured only because his father was a general,a pattern of widespread abuses with none of those involved punished except the scape goats who were stupid enough to photograph themselves doing so and an acknowledgment that it doesn't mather if 15,000 innocent civillians are held prisoners.

Only writing this sickens me all the way to the stomach because I myself was decived in thinking for some time that US is on higher moral grounds then the Iraqi insurgents and with every day more proof emerging that the only difference between them is that that one side's illegal and bloody invasion triggered the other's existance and response.

[Balschoiw 0]

Abu Ghraib will be transferred to Iraqui control because of the things that happened there under US control.

The 25 pages that were released yesterday on the torture allegations did clear the military of of "patterns" of torture. While the report is 400 pages only 25 pages were made public.

Did anyone expect anything different ?

And a little update for the checkpoint incident:

If it´s not Negroponte, shoot them to bits

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq - The temporary road checkpoint where American troops mistakenly killed an Italian intelligence agent last week was set up to provide extra security for U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte, a U.S. Embassy official said Thursday.

...

The embassy spokesman, Robert Callahan, said: "The mobile patrol was there to enhance security because Ambassador Negroponte was expected through." He confirmed a report that first appeared in the Italian newspaper La Repubblica.

It was not known if Negroponte, who was nominated last month by President George W. Bush to be the new director of national intelligence, passed through the checkpoint before the shooting. Senior U.S. officials usually travel by helicopter to avoid attacks in Iraq, but methods are varied so as not to be predictable.

...

Berlusconi told Italian lawmakers that Calipari had informed an Italian liaison officer, waiting at the Baghdad airport along with an American officer, that he was heading there with a freed hostage.

Berlusconi also said the car was traveling slowly and stopped immediately when a light was flashed at a checkpoint, before U.S. troops fired on the car.

The top U.S. general in Iraq has said he had no indication Italian officials gave advance notice of the route the car was taking.

So it was a temporarely set-up checkpoint by a mobile patrol.

This includes that it didn´t have all the bells and whistels a permanent checkpoint has.

I also appreciate, that we now know that the US forces indeed had knowledge of the transport, according to Berlusconi.

I also think it´s very funny that the top U.S general in Iraq says that they had no indication about the "route" of the car. I remember him saying that they had no knowledge of the transport at all. Now they had no knowledge of the route

There´s only one road to the airport, so what alternative routes should they have taken ?

A slice a day makes the pain go away....

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]Just noticed the story is from Al Jazeera. Pass me a grain of salt, please

There's one interesting thing about Al Jazeera and that it is in fact the only really independent news service in the Arab world. Yes, they do have a bias, just like western news agencies have theirs. It is still however a giant leap for the Mid East - it's the first tv station that is not state controlled. And the various regimes in the region absolutely hate it. It has been banned and censored from a number of countries.

So in an odd way, Al Jazeera is probably the most important player in the democratization of the Mid East. The reason why this isn't obvious is because people automatically expect that a democratic Arab country will be friendly to America/the west. In reality, there is quite a real possibility with fully democratic systems that despise the west.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]Just noticed the story is from Al Jazeera. Pass me a grain of salt, please

There's one interesting thing about Al Jazeera and that it is in fact the only really independent news service in the Arab world. Yes, they do have a bias, just like western news agencies have theirs. It is still however a giant leap for the Mid East - it's the first tv station that is not state controlled. And the various regimes in the region absolutely hate it. It has been banned and censored from a number of countries.

So in an odd way, Al Jazeera is probably the most important player in the democratization of the Mid East. The reason why this isn't obvious is because people automatically expect that a democratic Arab country will be friendly to America/the west. In reality, there is quite a real possibility with fully democratic systems that despise the west.

I agree with everything you say about AJ, maybe only slightly to a slightly lesser extent.

To get a taste of "modern" anti-west Arab democracy to come, read this:

Quote[/b] ]Egyptian Feminist Dr. Nawal Al-Sa'dawi Announces Candidacy for Presidency; Explains Women Can Lead Countries; Calls on 70 Million Egyptians to Fight the U.S. and Israel

In two interviews in the Arabic press and in an article in the London Arabic-language daily Al-Hayat, the renowned Egyptian feminist and author Dr. Nawal Al-Sa'dawi gave her views on women's issues such as supporting female suicide bombers; allowing women such as herself to lead Arab countries; as well anti-American and anti-Israel views including calling on all Egyptians to participate in a political, and military struggle against the U.S. and Israel.

Dr. Al-Sa'dawi in Kul Al-'Arab: 'Are We to Criticize a Woman Who Loads Herself up with Explosives and Blows Herself Up?'

Dr. Nawal Al-Sa'dawi was interviewed in the Israeli Arabic-language weekly Kul Al-'Arab. The following are excerpts from the Interview: [1]

Question: "Do you support Palestinian suicide operations?"

Al-Sa'dawi: "Israel and the West call resistance operations 'terrorism.' The Iraqi resistance has now turned into 'terrorism' and so has the Palestinian resistance. Are we to castigate those who fought with their own bare hands and died [doing so]? Are we to criticize a woman who loads herself up with explosives, blows herself up, and dies? Are we to castigate her for having blown herself up after having seen her father and her brothers killed? If I were in her place I would load myself up with dynamite and blow myself up… How can I castigate the victim? There are those who [ask] why [the martyrs] don't blow themselves up in army bases [rather than targeting civilians]. [but] many of them did blow themselves up at checkpoints and made every possible effort to do something worthwhile. I do not criticize the victim; I criticize the true criminal…"

'We Need to Change the Egyptian and Arab Way of Thinking'

Question: "First of all, Dr. Nawal, there is no doubt that your candidacy [in the Egyptian presidential race] has a message to it. What is the message that you would like to get across?"

Al-Sa'dawi: "My candidacy for the office of president of Egypt is meant to get across an ideological and political message – that we need to start to change the Egyptian and the Arab way of thinking, to encourage critical thinking, and to base educational values on debate, dialogue, and critical thinking, and not on obedience and subjugation… In addition, we must change the philosophical [basis] of the regime, so that there will not be a centralized regime and so that the regime will not be based on a single person, but rather on collective leadership… I want to repeal the law of immunity, since the more authority one has the more one has to be answerable [for one's actions], and not the opposite. I want to amend the law and to separate between religion and state in all of the laws, including the personal status law – this, together with a free market and a war on American-Israeli-European imperialism…"

Question: "Someone interested in presenting their candidacy for president of the republic [of Egypt] needs the signatures of two-thirds of the MPs, but you demand that the constitution be amended to allow the president to be elected directly by the people."

Al-Sa'dawi: "Perpetuation of the current situation will [guarantee] that anyone who runs in the presidential elections will lose. Everyone knows this. The ruling party holds 90% of the mandates in parliament, and therefore none of the candidates will succeed [in winning] unless the constitution is amended. We are fighting in order to amend the constitution and to bring about public pressure to this end, so that the people can elect the president directly, and not by way of the parliament."

Question: "Do you foresee an increase in the popular demonstrations demanding a change before the elections in September 2005?"

Al-Sa'dawi: "It is likely that there will be popular demonstrations for change before the elections in September 2005, and we may hope that they will be even stronger, that the people will make their voice heard, and that the [various] organizations, parties, and institutes will express their opinion."

'Killing Me Won't Help Anybody; Everyone Knows I Won't Win – I'm Not a Dangerous Candidate'

Question: "Don't you fear for your life? Especially [now,] when you are entering a campaign that isn't going to be easy – after all, in the past you have been threatened."

Al-Sa'dawi: "No, I've already passed the stage of being scared. Taking my life will not help anybody. Everyone knows that I won't win – I'm not a dangerous candidate."

Question: "Do you expect the ruling regime in Egypt to make use of the religious movement, which is opposed to you?"

Al-Sa'dawi: "It would only be natural. They have already used this movement against me; they ran a smear campaign against me and put me on their hit list. I was forced to live in exile for two years, and I cannot teach at the University of Cairo. On the other hand, I do teach in Europe, America, Africa, and Asia, and therefore, my candidacy is based on a demand for social justice, progressive culture, and the encouragement of critical thinking, creativity, and reflection. Education needs to be founded on freedom of expression."

Question: "If that is so, are you trying to fight against the culture of fear that has made its way into the Arab mind?"

Al-Sa'dawi: "Yes. We want a true democracy, and that power should be in the hands of the people in the sense that they will be able to express themselves, to express criticism, and to bring down the government and to disband the parliament…"

Question: "The Egyptian media is not a free media. Is it enlisted in the service of the rulers?"

Al-Sa'dawi: "Yes. Egyptian television keeps silent, as does the Al-Ahram newspaper. I can't write in Al-Ahram, since I wrote an article criticizing Ibrahim Nafi', CEO and Chief Editor of the newspaper, and he has stopped printing my articles…"

'As Muslims We Must Believe in Christianity, Judaism, and a Just World'

Question: "There are progressive Islamic movements in Egypt. Can they meet with progressive-secular and liberal movements?"

Al-Sa'dawi: "Islam, Christianity, and Judaism uphold justice, equality, and human dignity. As Muslims, we must believe in Christianity, in Judaism, and in a just world…"

The Veil Originated in Judaism, and Christian Nuns Inherited it from Them

Question: "You have expressed criticism of [wearing] the veil and of the most important tenets of Islam. How are you to gain the support of the people, who for the most part are Muslim and conservative?"

Al-Sa'dawi: "That isn't important. Egypt is the most tolerant state in terms of religion. I studied in primary school together with Copts, Jews, and Muslims. We are a tolerant society, and if Islam encourages us to believe in Judaism and Christianity, why should we discriminate against others on the basis of their religion?

"In addition, the veil has nothing to do with Islam. Historically, we will see that the veil's origins are in Judaism, and that Christian nuns inherited it from them. So why do people say that the veil is Islamic dress when in fact this is not the case…?"

Dr. Al-Sa'dawi in Al-'Arabi: 'I Believe in a Political and Military Struggle [Against the U.S. and Israel]'

In an interview with the Egyptian opposition weekly Al-'Arabi, Dr. Nawal Al-Sa'dawi declared her support for the struggle against the U.S. and said she is not opposed to the establishment of religious parties. The following are excerpts from the article: [2]

Question: "How did your idea of running for the office of president of Egypt arise?"

Al-Sa'dawi: "… We need intellectuals now who will suggest solutions to our suffering, and who will succeed in arousing the 70 million Egyptians. From this the idea arose that the educated elite must regard the fight against despair positively and must encourage the people to fight the U.S. and Israel. If there is no military struggle, at least there should be a political struggle. I believe in a political and military struggle."

Question: "What happened during your meeting with [two other candidates for the presidency, Dr.] Sa'ad Al-Din Ibrahim, and Muhammad Farid Hasanein?"

Al-Sa'dawi: "We met in Muhammad Farid Hasanein's office, and agreed on the need for change in the constitution, but there were differences of opinion between us regarding my election platform, which deals with the U.S. and Europe. They thought the U.S. should be dealt with neutrally, but I refused, asking them how [we could do so, since] it is killing us and robbing us daily. What, then, would be the difference between us and the rulers? The rulers are afraid of the U.S. because they want to remain on their chairs [of power]. Why are the nations afraid? It is essential to clash with the U.S. and Israel politically, and if necessary – militarily as well. The occupation will never leave except through battle, and it is essential to mobilize the 70 million Egyptians and to rely upon them.

Question: "Do you [support] freedom in the establishment of parties, even religious ones?"

Al-Sa'dawi: "[My] platform explicitly states the cancellation of all the restrictions and conditions on the establishment of parties, professional unions, and associations, and I am not opposed to the establishment of religious parties. Let's leave the choice to the people."

Dr. Al-Sa'dawi in Al-Hayat: Women Should Be Allowed to Hold Government Leadership Positions

In an article published in the London daily Al-Hayat, Dr. Al-Sa'dawi explained why women are fit for leadership positions. The following are excerpts from the article: [3]

"The news of my candidacy for the presidency of Egypt … aroused great debate among the people, in senior political circles, and in religious circles – to the extent that Sheikh Al-Azhar Dr. Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi issued a ruling permitting women to serve as president of the Egyptian republic. Al-Azhar's religious authorities took various different positions, with some opposing Sheikh Tantawi and others supporting him – including Secretary-General of the Academy of Islamic Research, Sheikh Ibrahim Al-Fayyumi, who said: 'Islam does not differentiate between men's activities and women's activities, and it allows one to opt for activities that suit their own nature [i.e. both men and women].'

"… Is there a difference between men's and women's characters? Does the difference lie in mental capabilities, in muscles, in biology, in the soul, or in other areas? Is there a difference in character between American and European women on the one hand, and Egyptian and Arab women on the other? If so, how is it that Margaret Thatcher ruled Britain for many years with an iron fist? I used to see her walk tall, with Arab leaders, heads of state, kings, and sultans from the Third World walking after her with their heads hanging low and obediently accepting her British imperialist dictates.

"[but] why look as far as Thatcher? Condoleezza Rice acts like Thatcher, only more so. Just like Madeleine Albright and Golda Meir, and like Hillary Clinton, who was only a president's wife and not a head of state. Women have held rule in neighboring Muslim countries and in others, such as Indonesia, Pakistan, the Philippines, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and others. In Arab countries, the wives of leaders have many powers that at times are equal to those of the president, the king, or the emir.

"And now some religious figures, among them the Mufti of Egypt, Dr. 'Ali Jum'ah, and Dr. Yousef Al-Qaradhawi, are leading the opposition to Sheikh Al-Azhar's decision and are completely ruling out a woman's presiding as a head of state. Why is this, honorable sirs? They answer: because of a woman's physiological disposition and her suffering during menstruation. My goodness, did menstruation prevent Margaret Thatcher from presiding as head of state? Does it prevent Egyptian peasant women from working the fields like men, from dawn to dusk? Does it prevent young female athletes from participating in Olympic competitions, where they play and compete with men? Who says that menstruation is an illness that interferes with a woman's work? What is more, pregnancy and childbirth don't interfere with women's work in the fields, in factories, in offices, and in embassies … the word 'menstruation' sounds strange and even ridiculous when men say it, especially when most women involved in politics, in presidential elections, and in other elections are over fifty years old, so that menstruation is irrelevant…

"Even more preposterous was the statement from Sheikh 'Abdallah Mujawwir, Secretary of the Council of Religious Legal Rulings at Al-Azhar, that he supports a woman's presiding as head of state, since Islamic law is not opposed to this, so long as the woman will not be in seclusion with a man. My God! How can a woman be head of state without [ever] being in seclusion with a man? Is she to work only with women? Is she not to be allowed to sit with a prime minister or with another senior official and discuss a certain issue? It is ridiculous to hear this from religious figures in senior positions at religious institutions, and it would be proper for them to address public opinion in our country and overseas, and not just by way of the television stations.

"Even the women who sit mounted on the seats [of power] in the Egyptian religious establishment have donned a veil over their minds, which is worse than covering one's hair, and toe the line of those clerics who opposed Sheikh Al-Azhar. These women's personal attacks against me are much harsher than the men's attacks against me. One of them, Dr. Amna Nuseir, said that she was opposed to Nawal Al-Sa'dawi's candidacy for the position of president of Egypt because [Al-Sa'dawi] disregards many principles of Islamic religious law and because she lacks the qualities [necessary] for this position and ignores the principles of Islamic law [ Shari'a ]."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Kul Al-'Arab (Israel), December 24, 2004.

[2] Al-Arabi (Egypt), January 9, 2005.

[3] Al-Hayat (London), December 30, 2004.

[Wilco 944]

Only writing this sickens me all the way to the stomach because I myself was decived in thinking for some time that US is on higher moral grounds then the Iraqi insurgents and with every day more proof emerging that the only difference between them is that that one side's illegal and bloody invasion triggered the other's existance and response.

First time I've ever heard "illegal" used in warfare (I know there have been many "illegal" events like genocide and concentration camps in WWII, but talking about an invasion), and you're saying it's bloody?  Well last time I checked war wasn't pretty  

Just sayin'.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]To get a taste of "modern" anti-west Arab democracy to come, read this:

And what does this have to do with Iraq ?

Or is it another try to get the focus distracted ?

Quote[/b] ]Well last time I checked war wasn't pretty

Sure Wilco, but we are talking about civillians, imprisoned, tortured, kids, people held without proof and such. They are / were not part of a war-party.

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]To get a taste of "modern" anti-west Arab democracy to come, read this:

And what does this have to do with Iraq ?

Or is it another try to get the focus distracted ?  

Besides responding to a point (I understand that this is done quite often on discussion forums), use your imagination to connect it to Iraq.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Well last time I checked war wasn't pretty

Sure Wilco, but we are talking about civillians, imprisoned, tortured, kids, people held without proof and such. They are / were not part of a war-party.

And just how do you know this?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]And just how do you know this?

News ?

Abu Ghraib abuse and torture cases ?

Civillian deathtoll ?

Reports from respectable international organizations and the iraqui health ministry ?

Red Cross report ?

Human rights watch ?

Shall I go on , or do you accept those for the start...

[theavonlady 2]

Quote[/b] ]And just how do you know this?

News ?  

Abu Ghraib abuse and torture cases ?  

Civillian deathtoll ?  

Reports from respectable international organizations and the iraqui health ministry ?

Red Cross report ?

Human rights watch ?

Shall I go on , or do you accept those for the start...  

How many out of how many captives were abused? And I still don't know how you know that all of them were "not part of a war-party".