The Iraq thread 4

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]You, billybob, try to put me into a line of america-haters, wich I am not.

No, I'm not. If you looked at my previous post, I said you were showing another side of Iraq, and not you are america- hater. I have talked to a america-hater before at my ex-college and you are not type of person (from reading your posts). You are reading to much in to the "modern day SS" because it was intended to be used as an visualization "adjective" (Akira) of bad or evil (and what people called them before and throw out the context), and not saying they are the SS (or accusing you).

[Balschoiw 0]

You´re just bobbeling, nothing else.

I can read and if you need to reexplain your posts you should think first and then write. I´m not stupid. And others here aren´t stupid also.

And even if there was a problem with any article I posted, why don´t you argue it ?

You just act like you wouldn´t have the chance to argue anything.

Do so, if you feel to but if you try to generalize and put a certain light onto someone because you are personally pissed, go away.

Facts is facts.

And facts is what counts.

I´m not willing to have a pop-up clown in this thread that deals about the Iraq war, a war that already has great influence on all this planet.

If you want to argue facts, no problem, if you want to abuse this thread for personal stabbings, you´re toast.

We´ve had this before, quite often. This thread is in permanet danger of getting closed or unpinned. I guess a lot of people contributed to this thread from day one.

And every now and then this smart hatred is started.

It has nothing to do with patriotism when you see that certain things in Iraq go goddamn wrong. Nobody scratches the US pride when reporting what is happening there.

You feel scratched, and the reason is false patriotism.

Wake up. Please.

[ralphwiggum 6]

.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/08/18/iraq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr announced Wednesday his militia will leave the Imam Ali Shrine after a threat by the Iraqi government to "liberate" the holy site in Najaf.

In a letter from al-Sadr's office in Baghdad, the cleric said he agreed to demands Tuesday night by a delegation from the Iraqi National Conference that he and his forces leave the mosque, disband his Mehdi Army and "enter into the mainstream political process."

Delegates to the Baghdad conference cheered when the letter was read Wednesday, but some were quick to point out that questions remained -- including when the militiamen would withdraw from the mosque.

Also Wednesday, the delegates picked a 100-person council to advise and oversee the interim government, the caretaker body running Iraq until a transitional national assembly is elected in January.

The development came on the fourth day of the meeting involving more than 1,000 delegates from across the country.

one word to describe him: wuss.

[Bernadotte 0]

How is it insensitive and disgusting? If you knew jackshit about what has happened in Iraq and the wot and used bals's post has a guide, you would be lead to think the US and the coalition are some bad people (bad=SS).

"Bad people"? I'm sorry Billybob, but you're displaying a striking ignorance about what the (Waffen) Schuetz Staffeln were. They were not "bad people", they were an organisation designed to supplement and eventually replace the 'neutral' military with ideological, indoctrinated nazi soldiers. They were an organisation tasked with the most vile of missions, e.g. running the death camps. They committed disgusting warcrimes while being fully aware of their criminal nature. But hey, those people were inferior right?

As you hopefully are beginning to see now, "bad people" as a description of the SS simply doesn't cut it. Anyone with even a mediocre knowledge of history is bound to have very strong feelings about the SS.

Following this train of thought, accusing someone of comparing the US military to the SS puts that person in a very bad light. By doing so, you question his good judgement and his rationality and simultaneously turn him into a mindless US-basher. A well-known tactic, but a petty and unfair one, especially since Balschoiw has done little more than quote official news sources and voice his opinion.

In my opinion comparing anything to the products of the Third Reich, or even accusing someone of doing so, is nothing but inflammatory and counterproductive.

I could not have said it better myself.

[turms 0]

Well if i remember right, waffen-ss were not the ones guarding the deathcamps, waffen ss was only for battle.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]one word to describe him: wuss.

His idea of americans storming the shrine was folded by the iraqi govt.

[Akira 0]

Well if i remember right, waffen-ss were not the ones guarding the deathcamps, waffen ss was only for battle.

Waffen SS were part of the Wehrmacht and thus part of the fighting units.

Err..so you are right.

[turms 0]

Consept of pre-emptive strikes seems to have spreaden. From Al-Jazeera

Quote[/b] ]

Iranian Defence Minister Ali Shamkhani has warned that Iran might launch a pre-emptive strike to prevent an attack on its nuclear facilities.

He said this in an interview with Aljazeera TV on Wednesday.

"We will not sit (with arms folded) to wait for what others will do to us. Some military commanders in Iran are convinced that preventive operations which the Americans talk about are not their monopoly," Shamkhani said when asked about the possibility of a US or Israeli strike against Iran's nuclear facilities.

[-MT- 0]

Well if i remember right, waffen-ss were not the ones guarding the deathcamps.

Not sure of this but I think it was the Ubelfezen (Sp?) Kommando's that guarded the Death Camps.

[ralphwiggum 6]

.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/18/congressman.iraq/index.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Breaking ranks with his party and reversing his earlier stance, a senior retiring Republican lawmaker said Wednesday the military strike against Iraq was "a mistake," and he blasted a "massive failure" of intelligence before the war.

The unexpected four-page statement came from Rep. Doug Bereuter of Nebraska, who until earlier this month was the vice chairman of the House Intelligence Committee -- a panel that reviewed much of the evidence the administration cited before going to war.

"I've reached the conclusion, retrospectively, now that the inadequate intelligence and faulty conclusions are being revealed, that all things being considered, it was a mistake to launch that military action, especially without a broad and engaged international coalition," Bereuter wrote in a four-page letter to his constituents.

"The cost in casualties is already large and growing, and the immediate and long-term financial costs are incredible."

Bereuter was particularly critical of the pre-war intelligence, which described an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. But no such weapons have been found since the U.S.-led invasion.

Bereuter voted in support of an October 2002 resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq, but he said that vote was based on what he had been told about the WMD threat from Iraq.

"Left unresolved for now is whether intelligence was intentionally misconstrued to justify military action," Bereuter said.

[Balschoiw 0]

The Waffen SS is an expression formed in 1940. It covers some different troups, amongst them the "Totenkopfverbände" who were responsible for guarding and running KZ´s.

So the Waffen SS did indeed guard KZ´s and fight at the front with extreme brutality.

60.000 men of the Waffen SS did serve in KZ´s.

According to a statistic from the 15th january 1945, the SS guards at KZ´s did have  37.674 men and 3508 women serving in KZ´s.

So the Waffen SS was responsible for ethnic cleaning in germany , the KZ´s and abroad in so called "Säuberungsaktionen" wich left whole regions burnt and thousands of ethnical different people dead or deported.

SS guards at KZ Belzec

Quote[/b] ]Consept of pre-emptive strikes seems to have spreaden.

I guess we talked about that over a year ago. The USA gave a very bad example with their preemptive strike ideology. An example that will be used against them or against their allies oneday. I´m too lazy to dig it out, but I´m sure I´ve posted exactly this.

[ozanzac 0]

In regard to Ralph’s recently posted article. You know what I find funny.

The intelligence agencies in Australia warned against the government to participate in an invasion of Iraq as they believed the accusations of Iraqi WMD procurement and possession were false.

The government had this information; ignored most of it, spin doctored it, and used it to justify our nation’s participation in the war. In the lead up to the war, one of the top intelligence men, quit in protest to the government supporting the blatant lies, stating he would not bear the load of going to war under false intentions. As a result to his resignation and public outburst, the government said the officer in question was mentally unstable at a press conference. The questioning of his mental stability was later retracted and an apology made.

The truth about the shaky grounds for the invasion is now widely known and proven, and the intelligence officer in question who left the Office of National Assessments in disgust, Andrew Wilkie, is now challenging John Howard in his home electorate in the upcoming Australian Federal election. How sweet the revenge will be if he unseats so-called 'Honest' John Howard.

Andrew Wilkie

An extract from his book about his and the Australian governments actions leading up to the war in Iraq can be read here.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]one word to describe him: wuss.

Is this better?

Fierce fighting in Najaf,Sadr defiant

Quote[/b] ] NAJAF, Iraq (Reuters) - Fierce fighting erupted in the city of Najaf on Thursday after a rebel Shi'ite cleric defied an Iraqi government threat to attack his stronghold in a holy shrine and rejected demands that he end his uprising.

Thick black smoke poured into the sky from near the Imam Ali Mosque, soon after Moqtada al-Sadr spurned the ultimatum from interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi. U.S. aircraft and tanks pounded the area around the shrine.

It was not immediately clear if the government's threatened offensive was under way at the mosque, where the radical cleric and his Mehdi Army militia have holed up.

Away from the mosque area, three mortar bombs hit a Najaf police station in quick succession, killing seven police and wounding 21 others, police said.

Sadr reverted to his trademark defiance after two days in which he had appeared to be willing to disarm his militia and leave Iraq's holiest Shi'ite shrine.

Asked about the latest government demands, Sheikh Ahmed al-Sheibani, a senior Sadr aide and Mehdi Army commander, told reporters inside the mosque: "It is very clear that we reject them."

The two-week rebellion has badly dented Allawi's authority, killed hundreds and rattled world oil markets. Oil prices hit a new record of $47.95 for a barrel of U.S. light crude.

Iraqi Minister of State Kasim Daoud told a news conference in Najaf the government had exhausted all peaceful means to persuade Sadr to back down and was determined to impose a military solution unless the cleric surrendered.

He said the scion of a respected Shi'ite clerical dynasty was facing his "final hours" before an attack.

Daoud vowed to liberate the Imam Ali but declined to say whether the government would storm the site itself.

Any such assault could provoke outrage among Iraq's majority Shi'ite community, especially if U.S. forces are involved.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Sadr reverted to his trademark defiance after two days in which he had appeared to be willing to disarm his militia and leave Iraq's holiest Shi'ite shrine.

Asked about the latest government demands, Sheikh Ahmed al-Sheibani, a senior Sadr aide and Mehdi Army commander, told reporters inside the mosque: "It is very clear that we reject them."

now he is a liar, and a stupid

[bn880 5]

I told you guys (heh), it is just a game to get Sadr to come out somehow, they are going to get rid of him by force if he does not give up all powers, it is the only way they feel the Iraqi puppet govt. can function with control.

[ralphwiggum 6]

I told you guys  (heh), it is just a game to get Sadr to come out somehow, they are going to get rid of him by force if he does not give up all powers, it is the only way they feel the Iraqi puppet govt. can function with control.

puppet gov't? i guess when Iraqi gov't says that they think US troops are going to far, it's US administrators making them talk?

wonder how Bremer's doing in Iraq.......oops.

[bn880 5]

Ha, it's all a nice game to remove Sadr without an uprising.

[ralphwiggum 6]

duh! if Sadr decided to disarm, do you think he would be dead? AFAIK, he was offered amnesty if he gave up fighting.

oohhh...seems like no journalists are in Najaf for information control.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/08/19/iraq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]Journalists inside the mosque were led there with the help of the Najaf governor, and had to pass through a cordon of U.S. tanks surrounding the outskirts of the mosque and then through defense positions of the Mehdi militia.

Quote[/b] ]On Wednesday, al-Sadr issued a conciliatory statement indicating that he was willing to have his forces disarm and withdraw from the compound.

An al-Sadr spokesman said Thursday the cleric had not agreed to negotiate with the Iraqi interim government, but only with the Iraqi National Conference.

translation: I, al Sadr, want to be a power holder.

Remember a few months back when he started causing ruckus and we saw that it was because he wanted power, not liberation fron the Big Satan?

[bn880 5]

Keep building strawmen, the situation is dynamic, and even if someone wants informational control it doesn't always work out.

The point is, Sadr wants power so if he doesn't give it up they will try to take him out, and to try and avoid an uprising in the city and elsewhere, they are going to use Iraqis who have literally sold out.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Keep building strawmen, the situation is dynamic, and even if someone wants informational control it doesn't always work out.

The point is, Sadr wants power so if he doesn't give it up they will try to take him out, and to try and avoid an uprising in the city and elsewhere, they are going to use Iraqis who have literally sold out.  

bear in mind that al Sadr has been branded as an outlier even by modest clerics who don't like to be shown next to Bremer. Najaf is not Iraq's representation. If al Sadr was a representation of Iraq, evety able-bodied people would fight US forces, not just some nuts wholed up in Mosque.

So I guess it would be better to have a fascist controling dictator for good of Iraqi people?

[bn880 5]

It does not really matter, you are trying to push the idea of democracy on these people, who believe that Islam can do fine on it's own. So majority or minority is not relevant, even in Canada the government is not supported by a majority either, nor are people really elected by a majority.

You have this idea of the Western world, where the government is the government and religion is seperate, it's not the way people want it there.

[ralphwiggum 6]

It does not really matter, you are trying to push the idea of democracy on these people, who believe that Islam can do fine on it's own.  So majority or minority is not relevant, even in Canada the government is not supported by a majority either, nor are people really elected by a majority.  

yeah and they can choose to be like Taliban or secular like how it was under Hussein. However, al Sadr is NOT representation of Islam.

saying "majority or minority is not relevent" is the kind of idea that will bring more trouble. it is between least of numerous evils, but sometimes having a bit of integrity can go further, especially comparing to anarchy.

[bn880 5]

We'll see what happens, it's quite complicated.

Hey, you are too anti-bn880 today, I don't like you!

[quicksand 0]

puppet gov't? i guess when Iraqi gov't says that they think US troops are going to far, it's US administrators making them talk?

No,it`s just an obvious way to sqeeze more suport from the 90% of Iraqis who consider US an occupying force and to calm those who are torching Allawi`s politcal party in a dozen Iraqi cities.

Quote[/b] ]Remember a few months back when he started causing ruckus and we saw that it was because he wanted power, not liberation fron the Big Satan?

Is a top position in the Iraqi government power?He has already refused one.

This prefabricated picture of a power thirsty Al-Sadr is geting extremly ridiculous by now.Tell me what do you think Chalabi wanted when he spewed the lies about Saddam`s WMDs and returned to Iraq?What did Allawi want when he brandashed the now ridiculous 45 minutes threat claim?

More over Sadr already welcomed UN peacekeeping forces excepting USA and Britain to take control of the country until there will be free ellection(I can post sources if you want) ,so imposing his supreme wil over Iraq does not exactly stand,does it now?

Quote[/b] ] If al Sadr was a representation of Iraq, evety able-bodied people would fight US forces, not just some nuts wholed up in Mosque.

Like tens of millions of French thought the German forces during their 3 years of occupation?

Get it out of your mind that all Iraqis are a bunch of fanatics waiting for the "J" word to unleash rampage across the infidels.

Most are ordinary people just like you and me who just want to move past this horrid page of their lives without having to fight Abrams with 30 years old AKs and dodging hellfire missles even though they might be stunch supporters of Moqtada Al-Sadr.

Quote[/b] ]saying "majority or minority is not relevent" is the kind of idea that will bring more trouble.

Couldn`t have said it better myself.Look at the mess in Iraq,all because the wish of an overwelming majority of Iraqis to have the US soldiers gone from their country is ignored.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Look at the mess in Iraq,all because the wish of an overwelming majority of Iraqis to have the US soldiers gone from their country is ignored.

Let me give you one reason why they are still there: Al-Sadr acting up. Furthermore, he might piss off Al-Sistani for dropping the peace deal. I guess the 36th Battalion (SF trained) might have to enter the shrine.