The truth about Canadian peacekeepers.

[DarkLight 0]

I'm not saying those things never happened, and I'm quite sure those articles are speaking the truth. What I am saying is that the actions of those people don't represent the rest of the nation.

The actions of the major-general of the Canadian Army speak alot about Canada's Army.

Yes and Bush his actions clearly show that every american is puuuuuuure evil!

 

I COULD agree with you, Bush's actions could show that his "regime" is "evil" if you think he is evil.

but,

Bush never personaly commited a War Crime.

Sure I dont agree with the Iraq war, but there is nothing illegal about it.

I dont see anything Bush ever did that makes him "evil"

Only about 42% of Americans like Bush, the rest hate him.

In Canada, Lewis McKenzie is seen as a Hero. See the diffrence? The Majority love McKenzie in Canada, in America the Majority dont like Bush.

Calm down, calm down...

It was just an example, ok? No need to start freaking out because i called bush "evil". Just... an... example!

And who cares about the majority! It's like saying all black/white/... people are baaaad (pronounce it like a goat would)! That's just plain stupid, even if their majority is baaaaaaaad (goat) then it still isn't justified to call them all bad...

Oh well That's what i think... You being so enthousiastic about nuking people kinda frightens me so this is where i stop...

[Brutal_Impact 0]

God bless the USA, the UN is a joke. Im not born in America, but I moved here and I have to say, even if Im not the biggest fan of the current president; America is still the best. They now know better then to listen to UN bullshit.  Just look at Kosovo, serbia tried to do the same thing as Bosnia and the UN was all like, lets peacekeep again!

The USA just said f*ck you! and bombed the hell out of the Serbian army, saving probably hundreds of tousands of lives.

LMAO. Yeah, that's what happened. And the military intervention wasn't American - it was NATO.

Instead of writing things twice, I'll just quote myself from this thread.

As for the NATO intervention in Kosovo, it was the right thing to do, but it was done completely wrong. I was with KFOR in 2001, part of a team doing a post-conflict eval of "Operation Allied Force", so I can speak with some authority on the subject.

From a military perspective the bombing was utterly useless. Very little Yugoslav military hardware was destroyed. The exodus of Albanians accelerated both due to the bombings as well as the Yugoslav paramilitary forces stepping up their cleansing. Plus a lot of Albanians were killed by NATO bombs (refugee convoys mistaken for military forces etc).

The last phase of the bombing was after NATO command had realized that trying to take out individual tanks wasn't working. And it was the bombing of civilian infrastructure: electrial, water and heating plants, TV-stations, bridges etc

The idea was to make life as difficult as possible for the people in Serbia so that Milosevic would be forced to step down. By that time the Yugoslav paramilitary forces were nearly done with their ethnical cleansing so Milosevic could back down. The last phase of the bombing is IMO not justifiable in any way and neither was the bombing of Belgrade. Had it not been the strongest western countries involved then there would have been talk of war crimes.

Quote[/b] ]I hope you relize that the UN placed a weapon embargo on Bosnia, it said that Bosnians cant defend themselves, but the UN would protect them, 200,000 dead civillians later it says "we messed up"

Our good friends in Canada just said.. no.

Do you know who insisted on the embargo? Let me give you a hint: it starts with an 'A' and ends with an 'a' as well. Yepp, the US was the strongest proponent of the weapons embargo.

Germany for instance advocated that the weapons embargo be lifted.

You have some very twisted view of the UN and what it is. If the UN is a "joke" it is because its member countries make it a joke. The UN does not have a military of its own. Had the world powers supported an intervention in Bosnia then there would have been an invasion.  But all the major players including America did not want to go in, so nothing happened. In Rwanda about a million people were killed within a period of weeks and the world, would not call it 'genocide' because it meant that they had to act. And just like everybody else America championed doing nothing.

A counter example is the first Gulf War. Everybody loves oil and Saddam continuing to SA was unacceptable, so it was no problem slapping on the UN flag and charge. The Gulf War was a UN operation. It was what the major powers in the world wanted at that time so that's what the UN did.

When the war started, Bush was in office at that time.

France was the strongest proponent of the weapons embargo after 1993.

If America was so much a proponent for the embargo after 1993, then why did Clinton allow Iran and other sympathetic Islamic countries to "secretly" send in weapons after 1993? (when Clinton became president)

You know, France was a very good friend with Serbia, just like they were good friends with Saddam over a year ago.

About Kosovo, at least they acted right away.

What can you do? America's Air Force is overrated, its only effective against poor "brown" countries.

After the war, most Albanians moved back to their old towns and villages, so even if the cleansing was done, it was undone after the war.

About the "UN is a joke comment"

Its true, all their missions have been unseccessfull or only partialy successfull. They say they protect the people, but do nothing to protect them.

[Brutal_Impact 0]

Quote[/b] ]The main problem here is that the leader of the Canadian army over there.

Anyway, just about all the other facts are true. Can you give a link to what happend "for real" at that camp.

Can you give any links that prove the guilt of the Canadian officer in question? Some proof would be nice.

And no, the account of just one Serbian prison guard doesnt quite cut it.

notice I say alleged most the time?

They tried to sue him, but the Canadian goverment wont let him comment or anything, they are protecting him.

Its hard to have witnesses since all those Serbian guards liked him.

Only one of them would come out and tell people what he saw.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]About the "UN is a joke comment"

Its true, all their missions have been unseccessfull or only partialy successfull. They say they protect the people, but do nothing to protect them.

You know shit man.

Another no-brainer.

This is a grown - up forum , so if you claim something you have to provide a credible link. Foxnews propaganda or redneck hearsay does not reflect reality.

[Brutal_Impact 0]

Quote[/b] ]About the "UN is a joke comment"

Its true, all their missions have been unseccessfull or only partialy successfull. They say they protect the people, but do nothing to protect them.

You know shit man.

Another no-brainer.

This is a grown - up forum , so if you claim something you have to provide a credible link. Foxnews propaganda or redneck hearsay does not reflect reality.

Explain to me how I am wrong?

[Balschoiw 0]

I´m not the one who should do that as it was you who claimed that:

Quote[/b] ]Its true, all their missions have been unseccessfull or only partialy successfull. They say they protect the people, but do nothing to protect them.

So it´s you who has to come up with some credible details on it, not me.

I serve for the UN core force for a hell lot of time now and comments and claims like yours just make me feel that some people on this planet have no idea what they are talking about.

Have you ever been to a military UN mission anywhere ?

[Brutal_Impact 0]

I´m not the one who should do that as it was you who claimed that:

Quote[/b] ]Its true, all their missions have been unseccessfull or only partialy successfull. They say they protect the people, but do nothing to protect them.

So it´s you who has to come up with some credible details on it, not me.

I serve for the UN core force for a hell lot of time now and comments and claims like yours just make me feel that some people on this planet have no idea what they are talking about.

Have you ever been to a military UN mission anywhere ?

Can you name one UN operation that has been 100% sucessfull since the Korean war?

I mean sucessfull as fullfilling all its promises.

[denoir 0]

When the war started, Bush was in office at that time.

Yeah, and America's policy then was that Yugoslavia should remain one country - that Milosevic would be allowed to retake the republics that broke free.

Quote[/b] ]France was the strongest proponent of the weapons embargo after 1993.

Together with America, yes. They very much agreed on that one.

Quote[/b] ]If America was so much a proponent for the embargo after 1993, then why did Clinton allow Iran and other sympathetic Islamic countries to "secretly" send in weapons after 1993? (when Clinton became president)

Clinton didn't "allow" it. It happened against the wish of the countries that insisted on the embargo, which included America.

I'm not saying its all America's fault - it was an international clusterfuck. But trying to whitewash America's role in it is not realistic. It was first aroind '95 that the world started getting little involved. Before IFOR the UN troops did not have a mandate to act.

Quote[/b] ]You know, France was a very good friend with Serbia, just like they were good friends with Saddam over a year ago.

Yupp, as was Britain and Russia - the old entente cordial  pals. No secret there.

Quote[/b] ]About Kosovo, at least they acted right away.

Milosevic's crackdowns in Kosovo started in 1989. The real war in Yugoslavia started in 1991. The intervention was at best 8 years late.

Quote[/b] ]After the war, most Albanians moved back to their old towns and villages, so even if the cleansing was done, it was undone after the war.

Ah, yes, but that wasn't thank's to NATO bombing. That was because of KFOR's peacekeeping (on a UN mandate) and the UN establishing the political infrastructure.

Quote[/b] ]About the "UN is a joke comment"

Its true, all their missions have been unseccessfull or only partialy successfull. They say they protect the people, but do nothing to protect them.

The UN has had many sucessful missions. If you look at the end results both Bosnia and Kosovo are valid examples. After the war it was the UN that set up the political structure in agreement with all parties. And both Bosnia and Kosovo work politically (Kosovo needs more time though).

There  are plenty of other examples, ranging from East Timor to Namibia, Cambodia and El Salvador.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Hey Bals, you seem to have been to a lot of places. So what do you say about the somalia mod? You should be able to judge it!

[Balschoiw 0]

Haven´t seen it yet. I only have seen a Moog map once, must have been at least a year ago and it was not that good.

[mr_rOk 0]

@ denoir

I live very close to both Kosovo and Bosnia and can tell you that if peacekeepers pulled out today there would be at least skirmishes if not something bigger in a matter of days.

[denoir 0]

@ denoir

I live very close to both Kosovo and Bosnia and can tell you that if peacekeepers pulled out today there would be at least skirmishes if not something bigger in a matter of days.

I don't think Slovenia qualifies as "close" to Kosovo and Bosnia.

In Bosnia there are a total of 7,000 peace keepers, which is basically nothing.

In Kosovo which is still not fully normalized there are about 30,000 troops.

So Bosnia is fairly normalized. Kosovo will take some more time but it's progressing.

[mr_rOk 0]

It qualyfies as very close to both Bosnia and Kosovo in terms of refugees and their stories.

Get real, you have newspapers i heard people.

Ever heard of the great Albania?

[denoir 0]

Get real, you have newspapers i heard people.

I have served in Kosovo and I have friends in both SFOR and KFOR. I would say that my sources are a bit better than gossip you hear from other people.

[mr_rOk 0]

You have gossip too.

Furthermore from the people who have/had no understanding of the culture, mentality, language etc.

Great Albania, would you care to comment?

[denoir 0]

Listen, SFOR is down to 7,000 from > 50,000 that it was once upon a time. They'll be gone in two years. In a population of 4 million, 7,000 is nothing. There are more cops in just Sarajevo than  that. Bosnia is a done deal.

Kosovo still has some issues, but they're improving. Back in 2001 when I was there it was a national sport of shelling KFOR bases and shooting at UN staff. It doesn't happen any more. Apart from the temporary violence a couple of months ago, things are looking bright.

That's the situation. And it's not gossip, it's a solid military  intelligence estimate.

Quote[/b] ]

Great Albania, would you care to comment?

Not going to happen. And the Kosovo Albanians have already realized that. What needs to be done is peacefully reintegrate with Serbia. Lots of work there, yes, but it is moving forward.

[mr_rOk 0]

Well i think it's not going to happen too, but from my experience with Kosovo Albanians I find that they are a very resentful nation. They'll hold something against you for the rest of your life.

And as my info (media info) goes there are very little Serbs in Kosovo right now, mainly by the border with Serbia.

That opens up a vacuum which the Albanians would like to exploit. You shouldn't forget that neighboring Macedonia has a 40% ethnic Albanian population and their army has already been fighting "insurgents" from Albania who tried to capture grounds in the E part of the country. UCK is dormant, they're just waiting for a chance.

btw you said you served in Kosovo. Wasn't there an "action" to collect all the weapons from civilians?

Wanna take an uneducated guess how many didn't turn it in?

The ones that have gave, gave Chinese AK's whilst still having a Steyr scout rifle @ home=>and that's an example of "gossip" reinforced by pics of my neighbour who went to visit the remainder of his family (Albanian families are big) to Kosovo last year.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Can someone please clearly identify the "achievements" of Nato actions vs. the achievements of KFOR actions in that conflict?

[Donnervogel 0]

Can you name one UN operation that has been 100% sucessfull since the Korean war?

I mean sucessfull as fullfilling all its promises.

100% successful? You're kidding right. Such a thing doesn't exist in such large scale operations. There are always failures and successes involved with large operation. Get real.

And another thing. Get away of the thinking the UN is a military force. If you look at UN missions you have to look at the countless missions they do without military force. Responsible for it are mostly UN sub-organisations like UNESCO, UNICEF and many more. These missions often are permanent. So they didn't stop yet and are likely not to stop for decades. Still you can count it as success when they give thousands of people (and children) in a region access to water, hospitals and education. You can count it as successy when they manage to feed people who had to flee their homes because of war, disasters and such. Maybe you don't notice what they do. But be aware that they are working their asses off.

Basicly in every war there are huge masses of refugees fleeing the country. (This also applies for wars the US started)

It's mostly the UN that gets things going and builds the camps and gives those people food. Often other organisations like the red cross do the same. But the UN usually stays even after the imminent threat is gone. And this is as important than the initial help.

This also happens with disasters like those massive floods in Africa or the indian subcontinent. They also take care of diseases like AIDS and SARS and try to coordinate the efforts and get the rich countries helping the poor (big problem when it comes to AIDS). Still all these efforts are successes for those people that don't have to die because of it.

But since you think more of military interventions. Well East-Timor is IMHO a success. Of course it started very nasty but in the end it succeeded.

There are other missions that I don't really remember that were successes or are going on well. I'm sure you can find informations on them on the UN webpage if you're interested.

You just have to see that the UN is no fighting force. The fighting is ususally left to organisations like NATO or selected emmber states.

What the UN itself and the blue helmet troops do is supervision of peace deals and such. So the parties of a conflict have FIRST to agree to stop fighting themselfs. They must be willing to stop. ANd then the UN comes in and say: Ok we're here to look that everyone complies to the peace deal. They're like a neutral party. But if the the conflict parties don't WANT to keep the peace and start conflict again the UN can't do much. That's when UN troops become useless. This is because of the UN isn't a military organisation. In that case the UN must pull them back and it can ask a real military power or NATO to enforce peace again.

And to change this situation that the UN could enfoce peace itself one would have to convince the world powers first. But in our time this seems to be a futile effort. As it is now all permanent security council members would probably oppose this. (Yes that includes the US). They never allowed the UN to become a powerful organisation and it's not likely that they would start now. They wanted to keep the UN weak and thus it is weak.

[denoir 0]

btw you said you served in Kosovo. Wasn't there an "action" to collect all the weapons from civilians?

Yupp. I was never involved in the weapons collection but I have friends that were. And they had some amusing stories to tell. For instance they raided one guy's house once a week and every time without exception found a huge cache of weapons. The guy would then loudly complain about why they are always after him. And this went on week after week.

The black market in Kosovo was wonderful in 2001. From what I've heard there have been some serious crackdowns on it so it ain't as good as it used to be.

I was part of a survey team that mostly visited old JNA sites and interviewed people (we were doing a post conflict evaluation of the 'allied force' and 'joint guardian' ops). Per protocol we were supposed to be unarmed most of the time, which was pure insanity. So we got a lot of our hardware from the black market - you could get anything - the latest western models.

So yeah in '01 there was a shitload of weapons floating around.

And sure Kosovo is far from being a normal country, but at least people don't kill each other on a regular basis and they don't shoot up KFOR either. And things are moving forward. What is most needed now is a return of the Serbian refugees and a normalization of the Albanian-Serbian relationships. It'll take time. But give it 5-10 years and you'll see it will be just fine.

But that's Kosovo. Bosnia is a fairly normal place. Sure they still have economic and political troubles, but nothing too serious. The remnants of SFOR will be soon be withdrawn etc Republika Srpska is of course an issue, but given their actions lately it seems like they want full integration too.

[denoir 0]

Can someone please clearly identify the "achievements" of Nato actions vs. the achievements of KFOR actions in that conflict?

First, KFOR is NATO (plus some countries, but under NATO command (actually Russia had a say too, but let's leave it at that)).

But the story goes:

"Operation Allied Force": NATO bombed Serbia to stop Milosevic from his onslaught on the Kosovo Albanians. Little was achieved militarily, but a lot of infrastructure in Serbia was destroyed, which forced Milosevic to agree to the conditions of the cease fire agreement  (aka Military Technical Agreement - MTA. (This was though after the exodus of Albanians from Kosovo was more or less complete)

"Operation Joint Guardian": KFOR is formed. NATO + others troops under a joint NATO-Russian command send in ground troops on a UN mandate as agreed by the MTA. Role: demilitarization and peace enforcement

In addition: civilian UN staff coordinating  and leading rebuilding and the administration of Kosovo.

"Allied Force" was not a very successful operation. The initial idea was to take out Yugoslav forces in Kosovo - directly in the field - to prevent them from persecuting the Albanians. This failed big time - very few Yugoslav military assets were destroyed. For example, out of 500-700 tanks that were present in Kosovo between 10-20 were destroyed/disabled. Refugees were mistaken for soldiers and shot up on a regular basis. The Serbs had anticipated an attack so all the military bases had been emptied and reallocated etc Anywyay, when NATO command saw that it wasn't working the plan was changed into targetting civilian infrastructure so that Milosevic would get domestic pressure to stop the war.

One of the more debated conclusions of the campaign is that Milosevic got to stay in power for an extra 6 months. He was on the way out already - he had fucked over Serbia badly economically and politically. The NATO campaign boosted a national feeling which gave Milosevic support. (It is however disputed - some analyst say that Milosevic's fall was accellerated by losing Kosovo)

KFOR's achievement is that people don't shoot each other on a regular basis any more. Security in Kosovo, on the ground, has been KFOR's task from the moment the bombs stopped dropping until now. This includes securing the return of refugees. Disarming the civilan population and enforcing the terms of the MTA ).

UN's acheivement is political and humanitarian. Providing food after the war. Helping and financing the rebuilding. Administering Kosovo and setting up democratic elections etc

[DracoPaladore 0]

Quote[/b] ]On March 4, 1993, Canadian soldiers shot down two unarmed, fleeing Somalis. Wounded and struggling, both were shot again from behind; one, Ahmed Afraraho Aruush, died. Two weeks later, a hungry teenager named Shidane Arone entered the Belet Huen aid camp, hoping to be fed. Instead, he was grabbed, beaten all night, and tortured to death by drunken soldiers.

That story isn´t true.

The two guys wanted to get into the Belet Huen camp near the ammo storage and were warned and finally shot at. Business as usual. You just can´t allow people cutting through the wire near the ammo depot. That should be clear to everyone.

And the teenager "hoping to be fed" did exactly the same thing. He managed to cut some wire and a flare that was attached to the wire went up. He had serious injuries when he tried to get out of the wire in panic. He was taken out of the wire but died of the heavy blood loss.

That´s the story.

Not to mention that the first incident with the Canadian Airborne ended with the disbandment and annihlation of the Airborne.

I can't explain, defend, or even care for the actions of these individuals mainly because I'm in a situation that I do not have the ability to. With no experience in the military, or limited resources and time, I don't particularly care what you think anyways since you clearly seem grounded in your beleifs that Canada is full of pshycopaths. Except for Hockey Players, I know this is untrue and I doubt any word you say will suddenly make me hate or become disloyal to the Army.

And AFAIK, Lewis McKenzie ain't seen as a hero. I must have missed that parade past Parliment.

[mr_rOk 0]

Regarding the black market issue.

I had been offered an AK for a meagre price, i think calculated it would be 80 euros,TT pistol for 50, beretta for 150, Zolja launcher (similar to RPG) for 300 etc...all from the old JNA warehouses, well except berretas, they were imported by some of the Territorial guards just before the breakup.

About Serbia and Kosovo

Serbs regard Kosovo as "holy land", albeit it eludes me why 'cos the lost a battle against the Turks on Kosovo polje=>paradox in itself

I hear radicals are climbing to power again (Vojislav Seselj) on claims(one of them) that they will bring Kosovo back to Serbia

About Bosnia

That's the most fragile state i have ever seen, although I guess the people are sick of fighting and just wanna live their lives.

Let's hope in 10 years time there won't be an individual claiming that there was an unjust distribution of land between the Bosnians, Croats and Serbs.

Oops hope I ain't too much OT this being a Canadian thread.

[Longinius 1]

Quote[/b] ]notice I say alleged most the time?

Yes, which means it is unconfirmed, unproven and not a fact. Yet you present it as such.

Quote[/b] ]They tried to sue him, but the Canadian goverment wont let him comment or anything, they are protecting him.

Its hard to have witnesses since all those Serbian guards liked him.

Only one of them would come out and tell people what he saw.

Who tried to sue him? Why isnt the ICC sniffing around it, after all, Canada doesnt control the ICC, right?

[bonko the sane 2]

Quote[/b] ]notice I say alleged most the time?

Yes, which means it is unconfirmed, unproven and not a fact. Yet you present it as such.

Quote[/b] ]They tried to sue him, but the Canadian goverment wont let him comment or anything, they are protecting him.

Its hard to have witnesses since all those Serbian guards liked him.

Only one of them would come out and tell people what he saw.

Who tried to sue him? Why isnt the ICC sniffing around it, after all, Canada doesnt control the ICC, right?

Nope, but as far as im aware, USA military personnel is "immune" to charges brought up by the ICC   That says a lot...