Sudan Crisis

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]I am just asking myself what the hell they are thinking? Do they think some third world crap army can fight against an invasion by superior foreign troops?

It´s just sabre rattling. African leaders are often a bit exaggarated with their opinion on own troop capabilities and they want to project a status that is not existant.

All that promises made by the government in Sudan to Annan were not fulfilled. And in fact the governement supports the genocide.

That´s the point.

Everyone knows who is behind the systematic genocide and as a diplomatic approach will do nothing troops will be sent to protect camps , ensure medical supply during rain-period and guard the returned refugees who have already returned to their burnt villages with militias in sight.

Let me say it this way. Troops will not attack government forces first, but if governmental forces are involved in militia attacks on refugees, their villages and the guarding foreign troops they will be attacked and dealt with. Same with the government.

[Ironsight 1]

All that promises made by the government in Sudan to Annan were not fulfilled. And in fact the governement supports the genocide.

Yep, and the problem can only be solved by sending troops and making Darfur a DMZ controlled by the UN (alltough I doubt the UN will sent troops) or NATO. Since it seems the Sudanese government is not able to do something about the problem (if they want to do something about it).

[IceFire 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well, I will say this for France, atleast they TRY in Africa...France has been involved in trying to keep the continent of Africa from killing off itself for as long as history has been recorded.  The sad truth is because America has nothing invested in Africa so the politicans couldn't care less about genocide of a couple thousand black people period(Its sad but the truth.  Honestly could us Americans really sit here and say we would support going into Sudan militarily...for one we ain't got any more troops to go in there, second this nation is still trippin over Somalia.  Remember all the craziness that was on the news when the Marines went into Liberia a couple months back? Tears of the Sun had a very important quote at the end "the only thing needed for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing"  Sadly, we don't have a good man in the White House right now and I honestly don't know if Kerry would put boots on the ground either..this nation seems to only care when their own wants and desires are in danger or there is a Haliburton contract up for grabs...

Polls taken after the mog incident reported a majority still supported staying in Somalia but Clinton pull them out. Blame Clinton not Bush.

Yeah, and I don't see Bush either offering a helping hand to the victims in Sudan...

I find it hyppocritical that the entire world is going on about how the US should mind its own business and stop policing the world, but when someone is in trouble, they all scream about "Where are the Americans??".

You want us to save your butts, but afterwards you will say "get out". Do you want us to help you with your problems, or do you want us to mind our own business.

We can either stay home and mind our own business and quit policing the globe, or we can come and help.

But when half the time you are saying "Stay out of other peoples business" and the other half saying "We are in hot water, help USA!", then we decide to use our own judgment and do what we feel is right, good for us, or worth it for us.

We are not going to break our backs helping people who may only try to kill us in the future anymore.

[ozanzac 0]

Quote[/b] ]I find it hyppocritical that the entire world is going on about how the US should mind its own business and stop policing the world, but when someone is in trouble, they all scream about "Where are the Americans??".

I find it hypocritical that the so called 'war on terror' doesn't extend to terror on the african continent.

[Ironsight 1]

Quote[/b] ]I find it hyppocritical that the entire world is going on about how the US should mind its own business and stop policing the world, but when someone is in trouble, they all scream about "Where are the Americans??".

I find it hypocritical that the so called 'war on terror' doesn't extend to terror on the african continent.

A lot of American troops are stationed in Djibouti and American troops are also training troops of governments. Like in Chad

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]A lot of American troops are stationed in Djibouti

Last time I´ve been there they´ve only done logistics for their own troops there.

Quote[/b] ]I find it hyppocritical that the entire world is going on about how the US should mind its own business and stop policing the world, but when someone is in trouble, they all scream about "Where are the Americans??".

Noone is screaming for US troops in africa anymore.

But may I remind you what was going in in Liberia just a few months ago ? Wasn´t it G.W who had some troop carriers in front of the coast and only sent in some to evacuate own citizens ?

Quote[/b] ]You want us to save your butts

No , certainly not.

Quote[/b] ]Do you want us to help you with your problems, or do you want us to mind our own business.

The problems in Africa are not our problems as they are no US problems. They are african problems. But there is an obligation to stop genocide, don´t you think ?

Noone, neither the EU nor the UN is crying for US troop help in africa today. It´s not that they have the best reputation down there.

[Ironsight 1]

Quote[/b] ]A lot of American troops are stationed in Djibouti

Last time I´ve been there they´ve only done logistics for their own troops there.

I saw on a report on CNN that they moved out in chinooks with jeeps and were going to patrol the desert searching for terrorist.

[Balschoiw 0]

From Djibouti ?

I can hardly believe that. Djibouti is the major support base for a lot of armed forces. But according to my knowledge there are not much terrorists there

If US forces used it as a base for strikes in other african countries they would sooner or later run into big problems.

It´s a silent agreement that Djibouti can be used for military transfer of goods and troops but actions from the Djibouti ground are not part of the plan. Maybe the US have an extra agreement I don´t know about, but other troops stationed there are not allowed to strike from Djibouti ground.

[Ironsight 1]

From Djibouti ?

I can hardly believe that. Djibouti is the major support base for a lot of armed forces. But according to my knowledge there are not much terrorists there  

Why are they moving out with choppers on patrol then

Quote[/b] ]If US forces used it as a base for strikes in other african countries they would sooner or later run into big problems.

It´s a silent agreement that Djibouti can be used for military transfer of goods and troops but actions from the Djibouti ground are not part of the plan.

Seems like it is, because they told US forces used Djibouti as a base to strike in neighboor countries.

I think that they have agreements with those other countries that they are allowed to hunt for terrorists on their soil.

[Balschoiw 0]

Ok, if there are agreements I can believe it´s done but it´s funny as the Djibouti officials were very touchy at such issues over a long period. I have to get more info on that.

Edit : Found some info, but it doesn´t look like they have changed their general line:

US forces set up base in Djibouti

Quote[/b] ]800 US troops continue to erect military camp as key staging post in Washington's anti-terror campaign.

By Khaled Haidar - DJIBOUTI

Some 800 troops from the United States were working feverishly Friday on a strip of desert in the tiny east African nation of Djibouti, setting up a military camp aimed at bolstering the international war on terror.

On a vast stretch of sand near Djibouti's international airport, US soldiers have already laid tarmac and pitched two rows of large military tents.

Nearby, olive green military vehicles so new they have not yet been given their obligatory coating of camouflage paint, stood idle in the equatorial sun, as soldiers continued to erect the camp, a key staging post in Washington's anti-terror campaign.

Djibouti is part of the international fight against terrorism but has vowed it will not be used as a "base for an attack or aggression" against another country in the region, a government source said last week.

"We will not harm another country in the region from Djibouti," said the information ministry source, responding to media reports that US special forces were preparing to launch military operations against Yemen, separated from Djibouti by a 30-kilometer-wide (18 mile) strip of water.

Journalists have been barred access to the US camp in Djibouti, a former French colony sandwiched between Eritrea to the north, Ethiopia to the west and Somaliland to the south, with the mouth of the Red Sea to the east.

A group of reporters tried to snatch glimpses of the activity behind the heavily guarded gates to the camp, and to get information on any secret missions elite US forces might be planning against suspected members of the al-Qaeda terrorist network in Yemen.

US soldiers have built a wall of sand around the camp, preventing the curious from seeing anything more inside than the occasional helicopter rotor blade or raised water reservoirs and a rotating radar antenna.

A few feet away, two men stood guard near a surface to air missile.

Officials at the camp repeated the same message ad infinitum to hovering journalists: "We are not authorised to speak to you or to let you film... We are still awaiting orders from Washington."

A group of reporters tried to engage two US soldiers on board a four-wheel-drive vehicle in conversation, but the effort was thwarted by a French Mirage-2000 fighter jet screaming by overhead.

France has its largest military base in Africa in Djibouti, where some 2,500 troops are stationed. Pilots from the base regularly carry out exercises in the air space above the new US camp.

The United States set up military installations near the French base after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, and increased their presence after November, according to a diplomat based in Nairobi.

The arrival of US soldiers, and the presence in Djibouti of troops from Germany, Spain, Britain and Italy, who have been allowed by Djibouti to use its airport facilities, has given the local economy a serious shot in the arm.

The US army is using local civil engineering companies to help build its base.

Hotels in the capital, Djibouti, are posting record occupancy rates, and car rental firms have run out of vehicles.

The US troops pay "top dollar" to rent air-conditioned four-wheel-drive vehicles, one of the car hire firms said, adding that it had no more vehicles available and has been asking private owners to lend it their cars for rental to the foreign soldiers.

Private owners can rent out their four-wheel-drive vehicles through a rental agency and earn themselves 400,000 Djibouti france (2,250 dollars/euros) a month.

One Djiboutian entrepreneur brought back 20 four-wheel-drives from Dubai, with a view to hiring them out once he was back in Djibouti.

He immediately found takers for all of them.

[Ironsight 1]

I have to get more info on that.

Me too, only saw it when I was zapping around on tv

[Ironsight 1]

Here is more info, it's the article I saw on tv

From CNN.com

Quote[/b] ]Assignment Djibouti: Where?

'You can fry an egg out in the sun'

By Jeff Koinange

CNN

Thursday, December 19, 2002 Posted: 2:29 PM EST (1929 GMT)

DJIBOUTI, Djibouti (CNN) -- After banging my head in frustration searching for a place called Djibouti on the map, I'm almost at the point of giving up when I spot a tiny country the size of Massachusetts sandwiched neatly between Somalia, Ethiopia and Eritrea.

Wow, that's it? Looks like a spillover of the other three countries, as if someone said, "OK guys, you can have that little triangle there. We don't need that part."

Turns out that was a big mistake: Djibouti is strategically located at the entrance to the Gulf of Aden, the all-important sea route for oil tankers plowing through the choppy waters transporting its cargo to destinations around the world.

And military experts say it's also strategically located for other more sinister reasons: It's an hour's boat ride from Yemen and nine miles from the Somali border -- two nations with what the U.S. State Department says are known terrorist links.

It's here that the United States and coalition forces have decided to set up shop in their stepped-up war against terror. (Rumsfeld in the Horn of Africa)

Welcome to Camp Lemonier, 80 acres of dry, dusty desert sand about to be transformed into a high-tech command center for U.S. Special Forces launching missions into neighboring countries.

To say it's hot here is an understatement. Average temperatures hover around 130 degrees Fahrenheit (54 degrees Celsius). "You can fry an egg out in the sun," quips a U.S. Marine who's sucking down a bottle of water. He's one of the recent arrivals, as is his friend who adds, " Damn, I didn't know Africa was so hot. I'm melting here."

About 900 U.S. military men and women in chocolate-chip camouflage uniforms now are deployed on this former French military base. They include personnel from the Marines, Army, Navy and various Special Forces. Rangers and Deltas are here, too; you don't get to see them but they're definitely here. Helicopter gunships and Humvees kick up a dust storm as the camp slowly comes to life.

Full article

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Call France.....America is busy at the moment......

[Ironsight 1]

About 900 U.S. military men and women in chocolate-chip camouflage uniforms now are deployed on this former French military base. They include personnel from the Marines, Army, Navy and various Special Forces. Rangers and Deltas are here, too; you don't get to see them but they're definitely here. Helicopter gunships and Humvees kick up a dust storm as the camp slowly comes to life.

Maybe they can send some of these 900 soldiers

Quote[/b] ]Call France.....America is busy at the moment......

Send a MEU, there must be one available right now.

However maybe France can help. If they care what happens in former european colonies off course

[ran 0]

We already have commitments all over Africa, in the Balkans and in Afghanistan ...

[Balschoiw 0]

France alone is not the one who is responsible for everything that happens on the african continent. As I already said, a combined EU force with support from Russia and possibly some support from the Aussies would do the trick. It´s an international responisibility not the responsibility of a few.

We talk about genocide here.

[Ironsight 1]

The only countries who are responsible for what happens in Africa are the former colonial powers -> England, France, Germany and Italy. I am not saying they need to send troops immediately but they have been robbing Africa for decades so they are responsible for Africa as it is now.

And I really hope England is going to send those 5000 troops soon. Maybe with support of US forces in Djibouti or a MEU.

[ran 0]

The only countries who are responsible for what happens in Africa are the former colonial powers -> England, France, Germany and Italy. I am not saying they need to send troops immediately but they have been robbing Africa for decades so they are responsible for Africa as it is now.

Belgium anyone ?

[Ironsight 1]

The only countries who are responsible for what happens in Africa are the former colonial powers -> England, France, Germany and Italy. I am not saying they need to send troops immediately but they have been robbing Africa for decades so they are responsible for Africa as it is now.

Belgium anyone ?

And Belgium off course

[ran 0]

The only countries who are responsible for what happens in Africa are the former colonial powers -> England, France, Germany and Italy. I am not saying they need to send troops immediately but they have been robbing Africa for decades so they are responsible for Africa as it is now.

Belgium anyone ?

And Belgium off course

When will belgium commit troop then ? (backed by other logistic European meens already on spot naturally).

I only see really limited comittments in Congo, Afghanistan, Kosovo and Baltic sea, I'm sure an army even the size of Belgiums's can do better.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]The only countries who are responsible for what happens in Africa are the former colonial powers -> England, France, Germany and Italy.

Huh ? What rock are you living under ?

You may want to check the nationalities of the companies nowadays that exploit africa. It´s a worldwide cake.

And the current genocide in Sudan has different roots.

It´s not a formerly colony problem but genocide by belief and race.

[Ironsight 1]

Quote[/b] ]The only countries who are responsible for what happens in Africa are the former colonial powers -> England, France, Germany and Italy.

Huh ? What rock are you living under ?

You may want to check the nationalities of the companies nowadays that exploit africa. It´s a worldwide cake.

But when these countries left Africa they left an instable country with a weak and unstable government wich is part of the problems in Africa.

This conflict is about belief and religion and supported by the government, isn't it the fault of the countries who left Africa, (and who actually put the government there) that they left the country with so many problems?

And now you have modern imperialism by compagnies instead of countries. Wich obviously plays a big role in the problems too.

[ran 0]

But when these countries left Africa they left an instable country with a weak and unstable government wich is part of the problems in Africa.

They asked for their independance, some fought for it, we did our best not to leave them helpless and ressourceless ... now, you see what happens when you let the power go into the hands of corrupt irresponsible individuals. It's not our fault if some of them have a problem with democratic institutions and democracy itself (along with human values).

-edit-: not that we didn't put our share of ruthless regimes in charge, but even those haven't been ale to uphold to our own interests and their alliance without an European military presency on their soil.

There's no way to fix what has been done 150 years ago or 50 years ago. All we can do is try our best to prevent them from killing each-others, to starve and to catch diseases, now don't come pissing on our boots as it's what we've been doing for decades now.

The only way for these countries to stand up again is to learn some kind of self-leadership and self-assurance. Some initiative such as the ECOWAS are a step in this direction.

[Ironsight 1]

But when these countries left Africa they left an instable country with a weak and unstable government wich is part of the problems in Africa.

They asked for their independance, some fought for it, we did our best not to leave them helpless and ressourceless ... now, you see what happens when you let the power go into the hands of corrupt irresponsible individuals. It's not our fault if some of them have a problem with democratic institutions and democracy itself (along with human values).

That's a bit too easy

Quote[/b] ]There's no way to fix what has been done 150 years ago or 50 years ago. All we can do is try our best to prevent them from killing each-others, to starve and to catch diseases, now don't come pissing on our boots as it's what we've been doing for decades now.

I agree with you on that

Quote[/b] ]The only way for these countries to stand up again is to learn some kind of self-leadership and self-assurance.

Also the African Union is a good step in the right direction. African countries are NOT totally helpless, but I think this conflict is a bit too much to handle. And that the Western governments should interfere.

[Ironsight 1]

I think the only reason that western countries wait to interfere is that the majority of the people who are living in Sudan are Muslim. If you overtrow the regime Muslims (extremists) will see this as an attack on the Muslim world. This will lead to more tensions between Muslims and Western people.

And a second Iraq is born