Back in the ussr (errr, russia)

[xmurderx 0]

the article

so what do you guys think, a yay or neh for having the red star make a come back into russia?

now the ofp tanks will be up to date

[Bordoy 0]

its a yay. The red star is a tradmark of Russia very identifiable on aircraft and such.

[Bart.Jan 0]

Similar to http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....hl=star

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (xmurderx @ Nov. 29 2002,22:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the article

so what do you guys think, a yay or neh for having the red star make a come back into russia?<span id='postcolor'>

it's what's inside, not outside

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">now the ofp tanks will be up to date <span id='postcolor'>

yup, that's what i thought too.

on serious note, i really don't care. just because you have a change in sybols doesn't mean you are changed greatly.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Nov. 30 2002,00:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">on serious note, i really don't care. just because you have a change in sybols doesn't mean you are changed greatly.<span id='postcolor'>

In that case, when can we expect Germany to reinstate the swastika?

[NurEinMensch 0]

For the russians the red star is the symbol of their greates might. For us germans the swastika is the symbol of our greatest disgrace and shame.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Nov. 30 2002,00:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ Nov. 30 2002,00:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">on serious note, i really don't care. just because you have a change in sybols doesn't mean you are changed greatly.<span id='postcolor'>

In that case, when can we expect Germany to reinstate the swastika?<span id='postcolor'>

it represents the darkest day in humanity.

although symbols themselves do not greatly influence behaviour, the representation thereof, or what it represented still remains.

in case of RedStar, it represents communist state's military. but will it make Russian troops act like some idiotic communist because symbol changed? i doubt it.

in case of Swastika, changing back to it won't make BundesWehr act like Nazis. however, the symbol contained acts of violence, and putting it on BundesWehr would look like Germany is endorsing it.

[-TU--33ker 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NurEinMensch @ Nov. 30 2002,00:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For the russians the red star is the symbol of their greates might. For us germans the swastika is the symbol of our greatest disgrace and shame.<span id='postcolor'>

true

[FSPilot 0]

Symbols are kinda a sticky situation. Some have meaning, some don't. The Christian cross is a symbol of the crucifiction of Jesus and his sacrifice for us.

The red star on the other hand doesn't really mean much, unless your some kind of hard core oppressive communist or something.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

The Red star is a communist symbol, not a Russian symbol. It's reinstatement on Russian military equipment worries me a little, if that's all the same to you.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Nov. 30 2002,00:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Red star is a communist symbol, not a Russian symbol. It's reinstatement on Russian military equipment worries me a little, if that's all the same to you.<span id='postcolor'>

that's another point i did not touch on.

my comment was that just because they change a symbol, it doesn't mean that THEY will change.

your comment is about how others(including you) percieve such move.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Nov. 30 2002,00:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Symbols are kinda a sticky situation.  Some have meaning, some don't.  The Christian cross is a symbol of the crucifiction of Jesus and his sacrifice for us.

The red star on the other hand doesn't really mean much, unless your some kind of hard core oppressive communist or something.<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Red star is a communist symbol, not a Russian symbol. It's reinstatement on Russian military equipment worries me a little, if that's all the same to you.

<span id='postcolor'>

You both speak of things you don't know much about. I quote the article:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"The star is sacred for all servicemen," Ivanov said in remarks broadcast on Russian television as Putin sat behind him, frowning his brow. "Our fathers and grandfathers went to battle with the star."

<span id='postcolor'>

The Red Star is a symbol of Russia's greatest military sacrifices and achievements. True it is a communist creation, but not everyone who wished to bring it back is a communist. The Red Star represents to many Russians the sacrifices made by their fathers and grandfathers.

[cybrid 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">NurEinMensch Posted on Nov. 29 2002,18:29 For the russians the red star is the symbol of their greates might. For us germans the swastika is the symbol of our greatest disgrace and shame.<span id='postcolor'>

Wouldn't the swastika also represent great might. Just think about it, if executed correctly one nation could have domanated the entire planet. Not that I'm supporting nazism here.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Yeah, their fathers and grandfathers are the reasons why so many American families have rather extensive involuntary military service records. Have your fun with your red star, I'm going to go sign my enlistment papers.

[LowLevelFunctionary 0]

We must remeber the swastika was an ancient religious symbol... its only because of Hitler that it has become the symbol of hatred....

So really symbols mean nothing, and again the only reason the red star reminds us of communism is that someone wanted it to be a star. It could of been a planet or a moon ...

Seeing the red star again shows just how much Putin cares for his country...

[vade_101 0]

its a worry, especially when you take it combination with a slight rise in the popularity of the "ultra-conservative" far-right in russia, who tend to marry what are seen as "Fascist" ideologies (including anti-semitism) and traditionalist conservative/nationalist rhetoric (regard for a near "mythical" past) with the symbols and signifers of russian communism, but with little or no regard to the ideologies of communism or socialism.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

As long as they dont whack a hammer and sickle underneath the red star I think it will be all right. Anyway, I see no problem with the red star as a military icon. Just becuase the regime has changed dosnt mean they have to give up a decent symbol.

[Tovarish 0]

6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Nov. 30 2002,016)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yeah, their fathers and grandfathers are the reasons why so many American families have rather extensive involuntary military service records. Have your fun with your red star, I'm going to go sign my enlistment papers.<span id='postcolor'>

That comment can go both ways. And incidentally, this is not at all unlike the issue of some southern states using the Confederate Flag.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As long as they dont whack a hammer and sickle underneath the red star I think it will be all right. Anyway, I see no problem with the red star as a military icon. Just becuase the regime has changed dosnt mean they have to give up a decent symbol.

<span id='postcolor'>

Actually the entire Red Banner has been brought back officially as the military's flag. Not that it mattered much anyways, it has been widely used unoficially by the army after the fall of the USSR. It's more tradition than anything.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Nov. 30 2002,02:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Nov. 30 2002,01<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yeah, their fathers and grandfathers are the reasons why so many American families have rather extensive involuntary military service records. Have your fun with your red star, I'm going to go sign my enlistment papers.<span id='postcolor'>

That comment can go both ways. And incidentally, this is not at all unlike the issue of some southern states using the Confederate Flag.<span id='postcolor'>

How many times during the Cold War did NATO have a 3 to 1 manpower advantage in Europe? But whatever, the point is academic- moving on: We aren't putting the Stars and Bars on our main battle tanks- besides, I think that flying it is pretty tasteless myself. I don't understand how you would want a symbol as infamous as the red star to be reinstated though.

[Balschoiw 0]

Please dont get on with national likes or dislikes as it is the souvereign decision of Rus military to use the star again. I have no prob with it as my mind is not fixed to symbols. If you ever go to India you´ll see loads of swastikas around, but it has nothing to do with Nazis at all. Anyway there would never be a guy in germany who would hop onto the train and join the idea of reinstating the swastika again, as the current sign goes back further more and carries a lot of proud memories also.

It´s in the heads, not on a tank, plane, helo, whatever...

I am more worried about the usage of the "southern states war flag" in private gardens in the US than using the red star on army vehicles.

[Badgerboy 0]

Tex is just worrid that he might start finding commie-pinkos under his bed again.....

Thats what brooms are made for. Beat the ghost of Stalin out of that bastard! If you get too worried, remember that the Star is a good aiming point on a MBT!

On another note, I expect that quite alot of Russian equipment still has the Star painted on it. It'll work out cheaper like this, it'll take ages to paint the Russian flag on everything else.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Nov. 30 2002,03:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How many times during the Cold War did NATO have a 3 to 1 manpower advantage in Europe? But whatever, the point is academic- moving on: We aren't putting the Stars and Bars on our main battle tanks- besides, I think that flying it is pretty tasteless myself. I don't understand how you would want a symbol as infamous as the red star to be reinstated though.<span id='postcolor'>

The Cold War was not really a war. The conflict was ideological and political, not military.

In the last 'real' international conflict, the Soviet Union was our ally.

I have a couple of pictures of M4A1 Sherman tanks with red stars on them. The Soviets called them 'Emcha'. Whoa.. an American tank with a Red Star. How terrible How about them P-39's?

And as tasteless as you might find the Confederate flag, there are a lot of southern Americans who would likely be more than happy to fly it on their National Guard gear. There are a lot of symbols people find offensive.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Nov. 30 2002,04:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Cold War was not really a war.  The conflict was ideological and political, not military.

In the last 'real' international conflict, the Soviet Union was our ally.

I have a couple of pictures of M4A1 Sherman tanks with red stars on them.  The Soviets called them 'Emcha'.  Whoa.. an American tank with a Red Star. How terrible  How about them P-39's?

And as tasteless as you might find the Confederate flag, there are a lot of southern Americans who would likely be more than happy to fly it on their National Guard gear.  There are a lot of symbols people find offensive.<span id='postcolor'>

Please don't patronize me Warin. I may be young but I am not an idiot. I know that the Cold War wasn't a real war, and that the Soviet Union were our allies in WWII. I also know that we didn't maintain a large, near combat-ready military presence in Europe for almost 50 years to guard against the Dutch. The conflict may have been ideological in nature, but I can think of few ideologies I would less like to see be rekindled than the Soviet doctrine of state-supremacy. I could care less what symbol the Russians want on their equipment, and I certainly am not offended by it. I'm just a little concerned with the thinking that may have accompanied the official decision to reinstate the red star.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Nov. 30 2002,04:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Please don't patronize me Warin. I may be young but I am not an idiot. I know that the Cold War wasn't a real war, and that the Soviet Union were our allies in WWII. I also know that we didn't maintain a large, near combat-ready military presence in Europe for almost 50 years to guard against the Dutch. The conflict may have been ideological in nature, but I can think of few ideologies I would less like to see be rekindled than the Soviet doctrine of state-supremacy. I could care less what symbol the Russians want on their equipment, and I certainly am not offended by it. I'm just a little concerned with the thinking that may have accompanied the official decision to reinstate the red star.<span id='postcolor'>

I wasnt exactly patronizing you. And it certainly has nothing to do with your age.

It has to do with being at a point where I am sick of certain nations believing that they can dictate to the world, in spite of what other nations may want. Yeah...they may have the military might... but with great power comes great responsibility..and some of these people dont seem to think that they have to take responsibility for how their government stomps around the world.

And might doesnt always make right.

BTW: Republican Senate + Republican Congress + Republican President = Totalitarian Government. Bush and cronies can pretty much do whatever the hell they want, and without a new American Revolution, there really isnt a damn thing that can be done to stop them. Think about it.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I wasnt exactly patronizing you.  And it certainly has nothing to do with your age.<span id='postcolor'>

Then maybe you should advance a little bit beyond world history for 1st graders in your attempts to educate me on how the world really works.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It has to do with being at a point where I am sick of certain nations believing that they can dictate to the world, in spite of what other nations may want.  Yeah...they may have the military might...  but with great power comes great responsibility..and some of these people dont seem to think that they have to take responsibility for how their government stomps around the world.

And might doesnt always make right.<span id='postcolor'>

Amazing. After 6 months of defending American actions against members who only "Have divergent opinions on US policy", I cannot believe that you could say something like the above when I merely expressed my ambivelance towards Russia reinstating a symbol that has such an awful connotation to so many people, not just in America, but in Europe and in Asia also. And all I'm doing is "Disagreeing with Russian policy". I'm not dictating jack-shit to Russia; hell, I'm just some guy posting on an electronic message board, and I doubt that my government will even release a statement on the subject, since Dubya and Putin are such great pals.

As for "with great power comes great responsibility", there are few better poster children for abuse of power than the army that marched under the red star. From there on in your post seemed to degenerate into a semi-coherent rant against the powers that be (presumably the USA) so in the interest of staying ontopic I wont respond.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW: Republican Senate + Republican Congress + Republican President = Totalitarian Government.  Bush and cronies can pretty much do whatever the hell they want, and without a new American Revolution, there really isnt a damn thing that can be done to stop them.  Think about it.<span id='postcolor'>

Like it or not, that's what Americans voted for. We have complete control over who we want in power- at the moment America prefers the Republicans. You might think that's a bad thing, but the fact is that America gets to decide who leads America, not Europe, Canada, or the UN. But anyways, this is completely offtopic.