Patriotism

[SirLoins 0]

Bn-880

Understood. All I want is legitimate discussion. I understand how quickly tempers can flare.

If we agree to disagree then at least the thought was put on the table.

I don't know if I'll change too many minds on this forum, as I seem to be in the minority.

Hell, it wouldn't be any fun to go to a forum where everyone agreed with me

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ Sep. 03 2002,12:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hell, it wouldn't be any fun to go to a forum where everyone agreed with me <span id='postcolor'>

That's what I always say. Even flamewars get interesting, get people to really spill out their thoughts.

[Sam Samson 0]

to get the thread back to the highbrow heights on which I started it, (now that the two of you kissed and made up):

for the record:

I define nationalism as the rather narrow and irrational view that my country is better than yours, simply because I happen to have been born into it.

patriotism on the other hand is pride in the honorable principles upon which my land was founded, its sensible laws, and its functioning institutions. patriotism is generally good. nationalism can be brutish.

let me elaborate:

the old greeks had 4 words for "love" which all emphasize a different aspect of our english word "love."

agape: that is divine love as exemplified by Jesus.

philia: that's friendship love or love between boys and girls. (not the same as infatuation.)

storge: this is family love, like towards children, granny, the rich uncle...

lastly there is eros.

no. the word is not just about sex. it actually refers to the strange and undefinable attraction we feel, like residuum said, for the home team, our country, our crowd or for a specific member of the other sex.

when you hear the hymn of your country, something just stirs.

when you hear the hymn of kiribati you just think: funny music.

when you see just any ole woman walk down the street, nothing stirs.

when you see HER it's gimmegimmegimme. (YAYEESSS SUH!

eros is not at all highfalutin like agape. eros is rooted in bias and personal predilection.

unchecked eros in a country can easily develop into brute, discriminate nationalism. it needs tempering by a good set of universally valid moral principles. it needs taming by being tied to a high standard, something like a faith that doesn't side in with the baser instincts of human nature.

I guess patriotism can give you valid reasons for why you think your country is great. nationalism can't.

[Sam Samson 0]

while I'm thinking of it:

it is almost perfect altruism when the US (or whoever) helps a nation and benefits from that help later on, like america did helping europe after ww2. so what if the US created a market for it's goods and grew rich by giving europe a hand?

who said a good deed is only good if the receiver benefits from it and not the doer? the best deed is the one where both make some winnin's.

it's a tenet of principled capitalism that everybody should gain by a transaction, and not one wins, one loses.

benign, principled capitalism creates win-win situations.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 06 2002,19:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">while I'm thinking of it:

it is almost perfect altruism when the US (or whoever) helps a nation and benefits from that help later on, like america did helping europe after ww2. so what if the US created a market for it's goods and grew rich by giving europe a hand?  

who said a good deed is only good if the receiver benefits from it and not the doer? the best deed is the one where both make some winnin's.

it's a tenet of principled capitalism that everybody should gain by a transaction, and not one wins, one loses.

benign, principled capitalism creates win-win situations.<span id='postcolor'>

prncipled capitalism

An oxymoron

Dont get me wrong, I am not some flaming communist But just like true communism, there isnt such a thing as principled capitalism. Man is too greedy and power hungry for that to ever really happen.

I do however agree with your definitions of nationalism and patriotism. However, I dont feel that either are negative aspects of our society until they become overwhelming.

[Guest]

I thinkt that what is most unpleasant with patrotism is how it is exploited by the politicians. Take the WTC attacks for instance. Most of the people in Europe sympathized with your loss intil you started with your frantic flag-waving.

I have two friends (Swedish) who lived in New York last year when the WTC attack took place.

After the attacks the situation became intolerable for them because of the wave of 'patriotism'. After the attacks it was very popular in NY to wear an American flag pin. One of these friends of mine wore a peace-sign pin instead. People were yelling at him in the streets and he almost got beat down on several occasions. In the end they both left USA with a very bad experience.

What you call 'patriotism' after 11/9 in America is what we would call nationalism or showinism in Sweden. This is way beyond cheering for the national team in sports. It is way beyond liking what your country stands for (an oxymoron really). It is about shoving your culture down the throat of others. And why? Because you are being politically manipulated by your government and your media. That is the sad part.

[Sam Samson 0]

denoir,

I'm familiar with heartland america. and I have to say that most people don't give a rip about politics. it's not like in europe, where politics is everything. (I'm fluent in german, so I know what I'm talking about.)

also, I don't see it as a problem that only 50% of voters turn out to cast their ballot. I think they are simply too fat and happy to care. as long as the economy humms along, nobody really cares about who's in charge. and as long as government stays out of people's personal lives.

their abstinence is a sign that all is well in their eyes.

and I don't doubt at all that your swedish friends didn't like it in newjack city. that is probably because ny is a lot like europe. (lots of highstrung, hectic people with strong moods).