Soldier protection (dev branch)

[chortles 263]

No what that video showed looked horrible and very simiar to what we have in arma 3 right now.

Thank gosh for someone who doesn't worship VBS2 footage like a golden calf.

Solzenicyn, is there any way that we can get the plates (front and back, or "both" as a single item, whatever) as a separate item from the plate carrier itself, or would that also require a revision of the carrying capacity mechanics for the vest slot?

[progamer 14]

Thank gosh for someone who doesn't worship VBS2 footage like a golden calf.

I don't worship it. The VBS developers have had to solve a lot of the problems we have currently. That video I linked thoug is likely outdated to the current system in VBS3.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

Body armor also should not only take X amounts of bullets and then your dead. It's just stupid and in realistic. If it penetrates and kills, then so be it. But if it is not powerful enough to break the persons armor, don't let it break the armor.

It's a bit more complicated than that. Unless the armour stops the IMPACT completely it's still going to bruise and maybe break a bone. Repeated non-penetrating impacts may incapacitate or perhaps kill.

A new stamina system (so you can be winded to the point of collapsing, from bullet impacts) plus a more detail wounding system (where there's a difference between a bleeding wound and a big ol bruise) will be needed to get armour to a working somewhat realistic state.

If the armour was implemented realistically right now without the above you'd have this issue of people taking 8 rounds and not caring even more

[chortles 263]

Agreed but unfortunately I think we are going to have to deal will the damage dampening that is in place now. It can still work if implemented well.

In that case, how would you define and describe to Solzenicyn a system being "implemented well" within the context of "still based on damage dampening"? :)

[progamer 14]

If the armour was implemented realistically right now without the above you'd have this issue of people taking 8 rounds and not caring even more

That's not an excuse to be against making the body armor system better and more realistic. If the person gets hit hit were the plates are not located, they could be in for some serious trouble. Making this realistic could help add more pressure for an advanced medical system.

Body Armor does not make you some invincible tank. Currently it protect the entire soldier body. We need it to protect exactly were it is on the body and nothing more.

[chortles 263]

That's not an excuse to be against making the body armor system better and more realistic.

Nor was it meant to be. :rolleyes:

The whole point is that gameplay (in the sense of player behaviors) would need implementing of systems together instead of one or the other existing in a nominal vacuum.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

Body Armor does not make you some invincible tank. Currently it protect the entire soldier body. We need it to protect exactly were it is on the body and nothing more.

it currently does! I was testing this extensively last night and if I shot a Blufor soldier with 5.56 in a part of the body not covered by the platecarrier he immediately dropped while previously would take 5-6 shots

[-Coulum- 35]

it currently does! I was testing this extensively last night and if I shot a Blufor soldier with 5.56 in a part of the body not covered by the platecarrier he immediately dropped while previously would take 5-6 shots

Yes each armour covers a specific hitpoint, not the whole body. I am making a mission that displays the damages you have dealt to a unit so we can test things and get numerical results. It will be done soon.

The problems occur within each hitpoint - for example the helmet protects the whole of the head, not just the top.

[progamer 14]

Yes each armour covers a specific hitpoint, not the whole body. I am making a mission that displays the damages you have dealt to a unit so we can test things and get numerical results. It will be done soon.

The problems occur within each hitpoint - for example the helmet protects the whole of the head, not just the top.

Please also make sure you understand the resolution LOD is not synced with the FIRE LOD:

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=16115&nbn=6

There could be other things as will you may have to factor out of any tests done.

[chortles 263]

What matters then would be whether or not the aforementioned 5.56 by Kerc Kasha was also to the torso or not (there's no "below the waist" armor in-game so that's a moot point as far as armor implementation anyway), from which we can determine if what you, -Coulum-, describe is just the helmet/head hitpoint or whether it's something else re: the system as a whole.

Furthermore, -Coulum-, about this mission -- are you intending to have preset distances/weapon/armor combinations as part of this testing mission?

[Kerc Kasha 102]

What I meant by 'shot wasn't covered by the plate carrier' I mean I still shot the torso just not where the platecarrier was.

A good + easy test is get a pistol such as the ACP .45, shoot a blufor or anyone in the face with it. They'll die. Reload, this time shoot them in the helmet. They'll survive. The actual physical armour is another hitpoint ontop of the default ones from the uniform so if you're able to hit a gap in their armour you usually get a killshot.

[-Coulum- 35]

Okay so I have made this little mission that gives you a selection of units from each faction to shoot, and unlimited weapons to choose from through VAS (though there are some error popups (I think due to devbranch changes) it still works).

You can download it here.

If there are any specific features or units you want me to add just let me know. I think it generally provides enough info to get a good idea of how the armour system works. There are many area of improvement for the armour system I have noticed so far but I will see.

A good + easy test is get a pistol such as the ACP .45, shoot a blufor or anyone in the face with it. They'll die. Reload, this time shoot them in the helmet. They'll survive. The actual physical armour is another hitpoint ontop of the default ones from the uniform so if you're able to hit a gap in their armour you usually get a killshot.

Unfortunately I have not found this to be true. Although there is such thing as glancing hit that do less damage, a direct hit to the upper head seems to deal basically the same damage to the lower head. When you use a .45 the helmet is not strong enough to keep the unit alivve unless the hit is glancing. If you use a 9mm you see that you can hit a unit point blank in the face and he will not die.

Edited December 13, 2013 by -Coulum-

[dnk 13]

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD]Weapon

[/TD]

[TD]Helmet Head[/TD]

[TD]Plate Carrier

[/TD]

[TD]Tac Vest[/TD]

[TD]Unarmored Chest[/TD]

[TD]Arm[/TD]

[TD]Leg[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]7.62 ABR[/TD]

[TD]17/45/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]29-35% (3-4)[/TD]

[TD]35-37% (3)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]25%[/TD]

[TD]44-50%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]6.5 MX[/TD]

[TD]32/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]10-25% (5-6)[/TD]

[TD]23-30% (4)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]17-22%[/TD]

[TD]31-36%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]5.56 SOAR[/TD]

[TD]17/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]7-15% (5-7)[/TD]

[TD]7-17% (5-7)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]5-10%[/TD]

[TD]16-19%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD].45 Vermin[/TD]

[TD]22/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]10% (7)[/TD]

[TD]12% (5)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]15-25%[/TD]

[TD]25%[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]9mm Pistol[/TD]

[TD]10/100% (2)[/TD]

[TD]5% (9)[/TD]

[TD]7% (6)[/TD]

[TD]100%[/TD]

[TD]10%[/TD]

[TD]5-13%

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

I've updated these numbers from further testing and a mistake regarding the 556 ammo (it was dual purpose originally, now STANAG).

There seems to be a scripting that occurs that forces a kill after X shots (in parentheses). I'd prefer it if the shots were just more powerful. I do not understand this at all - why auto-kill after 5/6 shots rather than make each shot more deadly?

[progamer 14]

Tonci87 made a interesting comment on the body armor system in another thread that might be valid for this one:

This system has some flaws. If I shoot at an heavy armored guy with a 9mm pistol in the chest, then I shouldn´t be able to kill him. Period. The armor won´t magically stop protecting somebody just because he was hit by x ammount of bullets. (You could argue that hitting the same spot twice will penetrate but we have no way to track that.) We also need a way to differentiate between a hit on the helmet that might actually stop, or deflect a bullet and a hit to the face wich is almost always lethal.

And we really need something better than the flinch animation when someone is hit.Why can´t the AI just go into ragdoll and then get back up again? I wouldn´t mind if this was forced on players as well, something like this would make them stay in cover.

Are there technical reasons why this can´t be implemented or is it just against BIS view on how the game should be??

[-Coulum- 35]

There seems to be a scripting that occurs that forces a kill after X shots (in parentheses). I'd prefer it if the shots were just more powerful. I do not understand this at all - why auto-kill after 5/6 shots rather than make each shot more deadly?

Its not a shot limit to the legs. What happens is ever shot not only damages the body part hit, but also the body parts around in (very little) and the units overall health - so when the guy dies of 6 legs shots it because his overall health has been depleted.

Try this test mission and you will see.

[chortles 263]

Interestingly enough, I gave it a shot on stable branch (pun not intended) and what I noticed was how often I'd attempt to "get under the vest" with a torso or waist/pelvis shot only to do arm damage according to the hintbox... though legs were by far the most of what was taking damage. Ditto with three attempted neck shots (i.e. on "O_Rifleman_Harness") at 4 meters being treated as torso shots that dealt out some arm and leg damage, though also some (more) head damage.

In contrast, with "O_Fatigues", a single shot towards the center of mass at 2 meters dealt out 0.484 torso damage, 0.036 head damage (not near the neck)... and 0.008 arms damage; the second, fatal shot dealt head (0.009 more), arm (0.004 more) and leg (0.001) damage.

[-Coulum- 35]

Yeah, thats something I immediately noticed. Basically every hit damages a bit of every part of the body. I have no idea why BIS does this but that is what I have been finding.

And when it comes to skimming shots sometimes these "spill-overs" get tot be drastic. Once I shot a guy in the side of the arm just skimming it. Somehow it ended up killing him and in my hint box I was told that the majority of the damage was dealt to the head.

[dnk 13]

Right, I'm watching unit total health and delta total health for each shot. That's what the numbers are from, not just damage to the one body part. And these are chest shots, not leg shots (I didn't count leg/arm shots, but you can see in the table the typical shots-to-kill in parentheses).

It goes:

-16%

-16%

-16%

-16%

-36%

or:

-13%

-13%

-13%

-13%

-13%

-35%

After trying your mission, I see the same thing happening on the BLUFOR units (your mission is much nicer than mine :), but the same data is coming across).

Add a "hurt.sqf" to the folder, [this] execVM "hurt.sqf" to each soldier. Inside the hurt.sqf:

_oldhealth = 1;

_guy = _this select 0;

while {true} do {

sleep 1;

if ((_oldhealth)!=(getdammage _guy)) then {

_guy sidechat format["-%1, total %2",(getdammage _guy)-_oldhealth,(1- getdammage _guy)];

};

_oldhealth = getdammage _guy;

};

Shouldn't have different results, and we don't. It's just the weakly armored units (OPFOR particularly) that you don't see this, but for the BLUFOR they're clearly getting a "supershot" after the 4th or 5th round from the 6.5 to force a kill. It's especially present with headshots, where the first might do just 15% damage, and the second always kills.

---------- Post added at 12:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 AM ----------

On another note, I agree with the sentiment that if you're going to make the damage less for shots, you have to have some additional effects, like TPW fall or more than just a mild head jerk.

Edited December 13, 2013 by DNK

[-Coulum- 35]

Hmm, I don't find that. The overall damage done to a unit seems to be pretty consistent except for the last shot which is usuall less because the unit dies before the full damage can be done.ie.

.184

.184

.184

.184

.184

.08 was the damage dealt to a blufor rifle's upper leg with a rook 9mm.

For headshots, when the head is crippled, yes the overall damage will immediately jump to 1.

Edited December 13, 2013 by -Coulum-

[Kerc Kasha 102]

That's really strange that you have a different result than I, was this on stable or dev branch as I was testing it on dev. Every time I shot someone in the neck or face with a pistol, helmet or not it would instantly kill them.

[-Coulum- 35]

dev.

With a .45 yeah, one shot kill to the face and to the helmet. Multiple glancing hits to kill.

With a 9mm no, two shot kill to the face and two shot kill to the helmet. Multiple glancing hits to kill.

What I am seeing is the helmet protects the whole of the head, but the .45 is simply strong enough to punch trough that protection regardless. The lack of difference between the 9mm to the face and 9mm to the helmet indicates that the helmet protects the whole head.

Do you get the same results as in this video?

[Kerc Kasha 102]

dev.

With a .45 yeah, one shot kill to the face and to the helmet. Multiple glancing hits to kill.

With a 9mm no, two shot kill to the face and two shot kill to the helmet. Multiple glancing hits to kill.

What I am seeing is the helmet protects the whole of the head, but the .45 is simply strong enough to punch trough that protection regardless. The lack of difference between the 9mm to the face and 9mm to the helmet indicates that the helmet protects the whole head.

Do you get the same results as in this video?

I'll test it out when I get home but I think it may have been a glancing hit or something similar, sort of sucks that it didn't work the way I thought it did.

[-Coulum- 35]

Yeah well try it again anyhow. I know I had the same thing happen to me when I started testing armour a while back. The first time I tried it I was all like "wow this works really well". but then after more testing I began to find out that it wasn't so much the case.

That's not an excuse to be against making the body armour system better and more realistic. If the person gets hit hit were the plates are not located, they could be in for some serious trouble. Making this realistic could help add more pressure for an advanced medical system.

But there isn't that much detail in arma at the moment. In reality armoured plates are quite small and cover about 40-50% of the upper body (waist up) at most. In arma however the plate cover 100% of the upper body. This means that people will not be in "serious trouble" if hit in certain locations.

I seriously doubt the devs are going to add more hitzones to combat that problem at this point (though I would be pleased if they did).

So keeping that in mind, it probably isn't such a horrible thing to have damage build up for the reasons similar to this:

If the armour was implemented realistically right now without the above you'd have this issue of people taking 8 rounds and not caring even more

Furthermore there are reasons why "dampened but culminating damage from nonpenetrating hits" is realistic, ie.:

• After repeated hits to a plate the integrety of the plate decreases - multiple hits leads to eventual penetration. In game multiple hits would lead to death.
  
• Though a non penetrating hit won't tear up tissue, it can still cause damage. Bruising and pain are definitely going to happen and more serious internal bleeding and broken bones are possibilities as well (though not for smaller munitions). The way damage culminates in game can represent this to a degree.
  
• 
  

So although there is merit to the "it penetrates and kills or deflects and does nothing" train of thought, its not 100% true. There is also realistic enough reasons for "dampened culminating damage". And I think that in the end the devs are not going to have much choice but to use it. So might as well start discussing how we can get the most realistic results out of that system. I believe it is very possible.

[Bouben 3]

I would like to inquire how you're checking that these multiple consecutive shots are coming from the same individual opposing MGs/team leaders? This sounds like a way more useful line of inquiry... no sarcasm.

I absolutely don't care who (how many enemy soldiers) shoot those shots to be honest. All I care is that without TPW I get killed more often on the spot than with "automatictakecovermechanismbyTPW". A truth. Period.

[dnk 13]

Hmm, I don't find that. The overall damage done to a unit seems to be pretty consistent except for the last shot which is usuall less because the unit dies before the full damage can be done.ie.

.184

.184

.184

.184

.184

.08 was the damage dealt to a blufor rifle's upper leg with a rook 9mm.

For headshots, when the head is crippled, yes the overall damage will immediately jump to 1.

Note that this is a higher damage than what I was referencing (and also at the 5-shot mark)... Try it with a weaker weapon or heavier body armor (plate carrier is best I think). You'll see it happens very often. Also note that I'm disussing the torso, not the leg. I have not noticed this with legs, but I haven't tested it for legs either.

Eh, I am really hating this new patch. It's turned PvP into more spray&pray than tactical shooting now, especially with everyone sprinting around still and the lag issues. Plus I'm crashing once an hour now. I might just leave off for a few weeks until they fix it (hopefully) in the next patch. I've been meaning to go back to America's Army 2.5 (personal gold standard for tactical play) for a while now. Guess it's time :/

Edited December 13, 2013 by DNK