European Union (Fictional - ArmA III Setting)

[jinzor 31]

Hi there,

I've been wanting to get started on a project to enhance my concept art/2D (texture)/3D skills, and I've been interested in the idea of creating a mod to fit with ArmA III's setting (near-future (2035), Europe in economic troubles, facing increased isolation from the United States (i.e. they're pulling out a lot of their military from Europe to focus on the Pacific. This is because the USA are in roughly the same boat economically and can't afford to look after Europe as much as it used to. This, in turn, creates a more unified European continent, which in turn creates a more unified European military), the east (particularly CSAT) threatening Europe's security). I thought that maybe a fictional European Union military force could be a good idea. However, I would want to try and fit it with ArmA III's setting as much as possible (not too futuristic, believable, yet unique).

However, in order to achieve the "believable" side of this, I am asking for the community's help on technical issues I may encounter with ArmA III/weapon tech specs or for your own ideas on how this faction could be portrayed (gear, weapons, maybe backstory). I plan on creating the actual soldiers and weapons first, above all else (otherwise, it will not work). The vehicles and other assets can wait until later.

Here are some questions I've got right now before I start anything;

1. Is the current, real life "Eurocorps" (link below) really the first step to creating a unified European army, or is it just a type of peacekeeping force for Europe? Should I name this fictional European army the "Eurocorps" or give it an entirely different name and logo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocorps

2. Is the gear used by NATO in ArmA III just used by the USA, or is it used by NATO as a whole? I'd rather make my own, unique gear for the Europeans if I can.

3. If there were a unified European army, would it speak a multitude of languages or pick just one to avoid language confusion? If so, which language would this likely be? English?

4. Which camouflages (woodland, desert, urban, autumn, something to fit Altis, whatever) do you think would realistically be chosen for a unified European army? I'd like to go for something that would stand out among NATO, AAF and CSAT (so that means nothing plain, nothing digital, nothing hexagonal).

EDIT: I've now chosen the H&K G36 instead, not the Steyr AUG.

5. Which assault rifle would likely be a standard issue for a unified European army? At first I was thinking something like the F2000, but that is currently in the game (and I want to make something new). Maybe the AUG would be a good choice? The AUG could fit for a near-future setting as well since it looks pretty slick, is currently used by a lot of countries around the world, and is a contender to replace France's FAMAS in the next few years (sign of the future in ArmA?).

6. Presuming I pick the Steyr AUG to be the service rifle of this fictional European army in the mod (I believe it to be a good choice), what kind of modifications could be applied to it to make it feel more unique/futuristic? Could the ammunition/barrel be changed? What potential new name could it be given (this is also to fit ArmA III's setting as well; most of the guns in the game use different names and are slightly fictionalised, making them their own guns in their own right)?

7. Would it be realistic to give the European army's optics (i.e. holographic sights, laser pointers, etc) blue colours (to fit with their theme), or is that just pure fantasy?

8. Are there currently any major defence projects being developed by European countries which could potentially, realistically, be included into this mod (gear, weapons, vehicles, anything (e.g. F-35 for the USA/UK, Future Force Warrior for the USA))?

Mood Board

FELIN-system (France) - Potential European soldier gear/camouflage (helmet, backpack, vest, clothing)?

http://strikehold.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/felin_full.jpg

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/75nbWXDmWtc/maxresdefault.jpg

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/felin/images/5-felin-helmet.jpg

http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/news/2012/november/Felin_Sagem_individual_combat_system_Future_soldier_equipment_France_French_defence_industry_military_technology_001.jpg

http://dmn.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Felin-Soldier-System.jpg

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/var/dicod/storage/images/base-de-medias/images/actualites/diaporama/systeme-oculaire-a-vision-deportee-ovd/1076967-1-fre-FR/systeme-oculaire-a-vision-deportee-ovd.jpg

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/felin/images/2-felin-system.jpg

http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/europe/france/military_equipment/felin_sagem/pictures/felin_future_soldier_infantryman_military_equipment_Integrated_Dismounted_Soldier_System_Sagem_Defense_Securite_France_French_Army_003.jpg

http://www.soldiermod.com/summer-08/images/articles/programmes/eda-1.jpg

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/felin1-375x420.jpg

http://defense-update.com/images_new1/future_headgear.jpg

http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/361957/530wm/T9800152-Military_technology-SPL.jpg

G36A2 - Potential European service rifle?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130405000341/zombie/images/b/bd/G36A2.jpg

Glock - Potential European sidearm?

http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1528681.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/Glock%2017-1528681

AS50 / DSR50 - Potential European sniper rifles?

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/sniper/sn67/ai-as50-0.jpg

http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/sniper/sn85/dsr50.jpg

MP7 - Potential European SMG?

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5sljbIJHo1rt6ar0o1_500.jpg

Edited December 1, 2013 by Jinzor

[mistyronin 1181]

I really like the idea, it's a shame that my 3D/2D skills are awful. But I promise to make some missions if you finally work on it.

Regarding your questions I think the H&K G36 would fit way more the role of the main rifle.

Its used by units of most EU countries ( for example two of the bigger armies like the german or the spanish ). While the Steyr Aug is only used by a really few ( Austria and not much more )

EU main international languages are french and english. And would be the ones indeed used to give orders. Nowadays english is the main used in european international military exercises.

For the seal, I like the EU military one.

The camo used for almost all the european countries is some version of woodland, though a desert version would also be apreciated.

Take a look at the european rapid operational force, there you have some nice info.

You have also common projects, which between its "sons" are the eurocopter tiger, the eurofighter and Airbus A400M.

The eurocopter, hk 36 and the eurofighter have already been made by the FFAA mod ( Spanish Armed Forces ), you could ask for permission to use their models.

And the Patria AMV, that is already in the vanilla A3, is on its way to be an "standard" in Europe too. While the most common tank is the Leopard 2A4 ( also in FFAA mod )

Edited September 15, 2013 by MistyRonin
Expanding

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

The idea is a very good one. Reminds me of a book I read called "Cauldron", where France and Germany created an alliance called EuroCon (European Confederation) and swept up the majority of Europe under their banner, eventually going to war against the US/UK and the few European powers that refused to join.

[antoineflemming 14]

So, is this going to be BLUFOR or INDEPENDENT? Because, looking and the Europe 2035 map for Arma 3, I'd think that maybe these countries could make up this European Union army that is estranged from but still influenced by NATO:

Spain

Portugal

Austria

Czech Republic

Slovenia

Croatia

Bosnia

Albania

Hungary

Romania

Macedonia

If you'd want to do some enemies for them, you could do these who are supposed to be influenced by Russia:

Finland

Estonia

Latvia

Lithuania

Poland

Slovakia

Moldova

Serbia

Bulgaria

[jinzor 31]

I really like the idea, it's a shame that my 3D/2D skills are awful. But I promise to make some missions if you finally work on it.

Regarding your questions I think the H&K G36 would fit way more the role of the main rifle.

Its used by units of most EU countries ( for example two of the bigger armies like the german or the spanish ). While the Steyr Aug is only used by a really few ( Austria and not much more )

EU main international languages are french and english. And would be the ones indeed used to give orders. Nowadays english is the main used in european international military exercises.

For the seal, I like the EU military one.

The camo used for almost all the european countries is some version of woodland, though a desert version would also be apreciated.

Take a look at the european rapid operational force, there you have some nice info.

You have also common projects, which between its "sons" are the eurocopter tiger, the eurofighter and Airbus A400M.

The eurocopter, hk 36 and the eurofighter have already been made by the FFAA mod ( Spanish Armed Forces ), you could ask for permission to use their models.

And the Patria AMV, that is already in the vanilla A3, is on its way to be an "standard" in Europe too. While the most common tank is the Leopard 2A4 ( also in FFAA mod )

Actually, you're right; the G36 would be a better choice than the AUG. There are lots of variants (MG36, G36C etc) and, like you said, many European countries use the weapon. Thanks for the great suggestion, way more believable for an EU service rifle.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Albanian_Soldier_with_G36.jpg

I could ask the FFAA guys permission to use their G36, but I'd like to give a go and model/texture my own first. I'm thinking the G36A2 would be a good choice (I'd rather have a version of the G36 without that sight (cannot remember the name), it's just easier for me to model my own version and easier to customise).

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130405000341/zombie/images/b/bd/G36A2.jpg

I might also want to make a few adjustments to the G36 to make it more fictional for ArmA III's setting. For example, the Katiba (basically a modified KH2002 Sama) fires caseless ammunition and is redesigned a bit to fit that. Do you guys have any ideas, besides caseless ammo, about what kind of adjustments I could do to the G36 for the setting? Stock, barrel, etc (I'm not an extreme expert on guns, but I'd be determined to make a modification that makes sense and not laughed at, hence why I'm asking).

As for the vehicles, I'll be focusing on the basic infantry/weapons first. After I've done those, I'll then get onto vehicles (might get a crew to do different things for the mod). Thanks for the links anyway, they're really useful.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Jinzor

[mistyronin 1181]

So, is this going to be BLUFOR or INDEPENDENT?

Interesting question. But on one hand some of the countries that you have quoted are not in the EU and some are missing. And clearly the main EU countries are proNATO as they are part of it.

But talking about 2035, I'd like to see more EU as another side, not blufor nor opfor, so independent ( which theorically was the founding idea to ,make an independent new power ).

Could be interesting to make missions on differents assumptions ( EU vs NATO, EU vs CSAT, etc. )

[HKFlash 9]

I support this Faction concept and can provide with missions once it is released.

[jinzor 31]

So, is this going to be BLUFOR or INDEPENDENT? Because, looking and the Europe 2035 map for Arma 3, I'd think that maybe these countries could make up this European Union army that is estranged from but still influenced by NATO:

*snip*

If you'd want to do some enemies for them, you could do these who are supposed to be influenced by Russia:

*snip*

I'm not sure whether to make it BLUFOR or INDEPENDENT yet, I was leaning towards BLUFOR at first but, after reading Ronin's post above, I could think about it a bit more. I don't think the EU would necessarily be in a war with NATO (since EU countries are a part of it), but against the USA? Who knows. It'd be fun to have a scenario with that kind of rivalry though; Europe vs America. I wish it were actually possible to add more than one faction (i.e. BLUFOR, OPFOR, INDEPENDENT, *NEW*).

I haven't really thought about an opponent for them yet, haven't thought that far ahead. But, if this EU faction is a success, I could move onto making another fictional OPFOR power based on the ArmA III setting.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Jinzor

[mistyronin 1181]

It'd be fun to have a scenario with that kind of rivalry though; Europe vs America. I wish it were actually possible to add more than one faction (i.e. BLUFOR, OPFOR, INDEPENDENT, *NEW*).

Though it would be better to add a new side ( but I'm afraid the Arma engine is limited in that sense ), you can always do like the devs with the FIA ( which is in all the three sides, in two of them hidden ).

BTW I like the HK G36A2, really nice choice. Though I can't think how could you tune it a bit. Maybe a new stock? ( the actual one is a bit weak ) or the pistol grip?

EDIT: about a possible opponent, having in mind that EU countries have "colonies" all over the world could be anyone. France alone has territories and military in North, central and south America, Africa and Oceania...

Edited September 16, 2013 by MistyRonin

[Caselius 94]

If you'd want to do some enemies for them, you could do these who are supposed to be influenced by Russia:

Finland

Estonia

Latvia

Lithuania

Poland

Slovakia

Moldova

Serbia

Bulgaria

I think Finland could fit the best as NATO in the game, as NATO has Finnish vehicles [AMV] and vehicle weaponry [AMOS mortar for example]. I think that world map BIS posted was still based on the older version of the story.

Even though Finland ain't in the NATO, there is a "NATO Question", which raises every year in the goverment. So in ArmaVersum III there is possibility that Finland has joined NATO.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Leopard

[jagdtiger74 10]

Some infos about Eurokorps since I served there.

Generally european armies are joined together in NATO with Headquarters in Brussels Belgium. We have to remember that NATO was created as a counterweight to the East block.

There is no sharing of weapons per se in NATO. But obviously a lot of the countries involved shared development costs for weapon systems or purchased Weapon systems from NATO Members. Like the use of the german developed Leopard MBT in multiple NATO countries. Also certain standards were agreed upon within NATO, like the usage of the 5,56mm Round, even though a lot of countries are looking for alternatives since the round lacks punch. Anyhow so nothing is common in NATO and there are exceptions everywhere.

The Eurokorps consists of France, Germany, Belgium, Spain and Luxembourg and is structurally a Corps. It mainly consists of Divisions that are stationed in their native country. Only the HQ and HQ Support troops are actual Eurokorps. For Germany it is the 10th Tank Division that is Part of the Eurokorps, but they are in their bases in Germany. So Eurokorps does planing and training and then puts a Force together out of the units available. Weapons in general are not shared. Germany uses HK G36, France FAMAS. Germany Leopard, France LeClerk. Only the Multinational Forces within the Eurokorps share equipment. Like the HQ or the German French Brigade.

Having said all that there are a couple of other joind forces projects between various countries. For example there is the ARRC Allied Command Europe Rapid Reaction Corp which is under British directive and has 16 member nations.

Language: depends on who is working together but on a superior level English since SACEUR and SHAPE do everything in English.

Camo: No NATO style. Every NATO Country is a souverain State so they do as they please. But then again, your neighbor might like the style you are wearing and they buy the stuff.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Jagdtiger74

[Brain 12]

So, is this going to be BLUFOR or INDEPENDENT? Because, looking and the Europe 2035 map for Arma 3, I'd think that maybe these countries could make up this European Union army that is estranged from but still influenced by NATO:

Spain

Portugal

Austria

Czech Republic

Slovenia

Croatia

Bosnia

Albania

Hungary

Romania

Macedonia

If you'd want to do some enemies for them, you could do these who are supposed to be influenced by Russia:

Finland

Estonia

Latvia

Lithuania

Poland

Slovakia

Moldova

Serbia

Bulgaria

Bold ones should be NME imo, underlined ones should be NATO.

I know a lot of guys from Latvia and I've been there quite a few times. A vast majority hates russians/the former CCCP and the military is working together tight with the NATO.

While Bosnia might be on NATO side, latest clashes in that area shown again that the people might not be on the NATO Side if it comes to a war. Albania would belong to OPFOR IMO.

As weapon I wouldn't use the G36. Even though I'd really like to see it. It's overrated to the top. What about the HK416?

[13islucky 10]

As weapon I wouldn't use the G36. Even though I'd really like to see it. It's overrated to the top. What about the HK416?

That's actually an interesting idea, especially since, and this is from Google Translate

The plastic parts lose stiffness at temperatures higher than 23 degrees celsius.

which if I'm not wrong is slightly below rtp in the Mediterranean.

[LeTroubadour 1]

As weapon I wouldn't use the G36. Even though I'd really like to see it. It's overrated to the top. What about the HK416?

I agree, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_G36#Overheating. I don't think France would agree to use the G36, they'd seek a different weapon, possibly a joint project to create a new one (kinda out of the question though). The HK416 is a bit close to the M4 but a good option nonetheless.

[Brain 12]

That's actually an interesting idea, especially since, and this is from Google Translate

which if I'm not wrong is slightly below rtp in the Mediterranean.

My father who was deployed several times in Kosovo and Afghanistan said that after a normal firefight, parts became really hot and the weapon lacked accuracy and range. I don't think the 23° are accurate, though.

[theevancat 277]

BTW I like the HK G36A2, really nice choice. Though I can't think how could you tune it a bit. Maybe a new stock? ( the actual one is a bit weak ) or the pistol grip?

Like the thumbhole stock?

[mistyronin 1181]

My father who was deployed several times in Kosovo and Afghanistan said that after a normal firefight, parts became really hot and the weapon lacked accuracy and range. I don't think the 23° are accurate, though.

It wouldn't make much sense, as its the standard rifle of e Spanish Army, Navy, Air Force; as far as I know in Spain 23C is quite a mild temperare ( normally is at least 10 degrees more ). And as far as I know Spain is at the same latitude than Greece, and in the Mediterranean.

And EU countries whose military use the HK G36 ( at least in one of their military units ): Germany, Spain, Portugal, Slovakia, Lithuania, UK, Croatia, Finland, Romania and Sweden.

So I think it's right now the most representative rifle in EU.

[Brain 12]

It wouldn't make much sense, as its the standard rifle of e Spanish Army, Navy, Air Force; as far as I know in Spain 23C is quite a mild temperare ( normally is at least 10 degrees more ). And as far as I know Spain is at the same latitude than Greece, and in the Mediterranean.

And EU countries whose military use the HK G36 ( at least in one of their military units ): Germany, Spain, Portugal, Slovakia, Lithuania, UK, Croatia, Finland, Romania and Sweden.

So I think it's right now the most representative rifle in EU.

It is maybe the most representative, but it's not a very good one IMO.

[mistyronin 1181]

It is maybe the most representative, but it's not a very good one IMO.

Good or not good depends on the opinion of each person. But if we are trying to find a representative and modern looking rifle for the EU. I think the answer is quite clear, and if that many countries from EU and more from outside use it regularly is for some reason.

BTW I had been user of it for years and no major complain. Only think that was a bit annoying is that the standard issued bayonet breaks really fast ( just to fall on the ground ). And as said before the stock its not the most resistant ever ( you can't use it as support to jump/throw yourself to prone position ).

[antoineflemming 14]

Bold ones should be NME imo, underlined ones should be NATO.

I know a lot of guys from Latvia and I've been there quite a few times. A vast majority hates russians/the former CCCP and the military is working together tight with the NATO.

While Bosnia might be on NATO side, latest clashes in that area shown again that the people might not be on the NATO Side if it comes to a war. Albania would belong to OPFOR IMO.

As weapon I wouldn't use the G36. Even though I'd really like to see it. It's overrated to the top. What about the HK416?

Well, I'm just going off of the Europe 2035 map that was put out by BIS to support their campaign.

---------- Post added at 07:40 ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 ----------

I think Finland could fit the best as NATO in the game, as NATO has Finnish vehicles [AMV] and vehicle weaponry [AMOS mortar for example]. I think that world map BIS posted was still based on the older version of the story.

Even though Finland ain't in the NATO, there is a "NATO Question", which raises every year in the goverment. So in ArmaVersum III there is possibility that Finland has joined NATO.

Nope. It's actually more in-line with the current story than the 2011 story (in which Europe was occupied by Iran). This was released last year, and I think most of it still applies, including the geopolitics.

[Brain 12]

Well, I'm just going off of the Europe 2035 map that was put out by BIS to support their campaign.

That approach makes sense...

[Caselius 94]

[/color]

Nope. It's actually more in-line with the current story than the 2011 story (in which Europe was occupied by Iran). This was released last year, and I think most of it still applies, including the geopolitics.

The BIS logic on this doesn't make any sense. Adding Finnish stuff on NATO and aligning us on the OPFOR side. Who would give weapon systems for their enemies?

[jinzor 31]

Thanks for all the information guys, it's really useful stuff.

@Jagdtiger74 Wow, thanks for the Eurocorps info, really appreciate it.

I did know that, in NATO, there isn't a shared camo, gear or weapons (each country has their own), but I was asking about the version of NATO in ArmA III. I assume it hasn't changed, but I remember reading something, about some of the things showcased for NATO, which hint at NATO actually using shared stuff, hence why I asked question #2.

@Brain About the issues with the G36, I think these could potentially be things that I could modify to the gun to make it its own gun for ArmA III's setting, therefore fitting the fictional EU faction I'm making (e.g. the Iranian KH2002 "Sama", renamed to a "Katiba", description said that, besides being modified for caseless ammunition, they increased overall performance by changing the stock, barrel etc, making it effectively an entirely new weapon for the Iranian (now CSAT) army, hence giving it a new name).

Besides overheating and the stock (does anyone know a good, new stock that I could give the G36?) not being supportive enough, are there any other potential issues with the G36 that I could modify to the gun to rectify those issues, therefore making it more reliable/near-futuristic? Maybe a different ammo type ("Various conflicts in the late 20th and early 21st Century showed how lacking the 5.56mm NATO round was, and decided to change it to the *new ammo* NATO round")?

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/ArmA_III#.22MX_6.5mm.22

Changing the ammo I guess would affect the barrel/magazine/ejection port, right? Could the G36 potentially be modified, like the Katiba and MX currently in ArmA III, to use caseless ammunition? It seems like Bohemia are trying to say that this type of ammunition is more commonly used in 2035 than it is today. It'd be good if I could give the Europeans a service rifle that uses caseless ammo to keep up the tradition in the game's setting. If I can't, then nevermind.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Jinzor

[mistyronin 1181]

The BIS logic on this doesn't make any sense. Adding Finnish stuff on NATO and aligning us on the OPFOR side. Who would give weapon systems for their enemies?

I don't know how this is gonna sound, first just say that though I've been living for a year in Finland but I'm from another EU country ( which BTW is inside NATO, and were I served as professional in the military ), so its just a personal opinion.

But on my humble opinion Finland is quite influenced by Russia on all sides ( military Finland has quite much russian equipment and even the finnish rifle standard calibre is the 7.62 instead of the 5.56 NATO ). The gov is even thinking to add russian as a second language in school for the east side ( instead of swedish ).

On the other hand, population tend to be more prowest and quite anti russian ( specially the older ), maybe as a remainder of WW2 ( were during the winter war tried to invade Finland, issue that continued in the "continuation war" ).

BTW about the Patria in the NATO, it has already been tested for the USMC and the US ordered more than one thousand vehicles.

[Brain 12]

Besides overheating and the stock (does anyone know a good, new stock that I could give the G36?) not being supportive enough, are there any other potential issues with the G36 that I could modify to the gun to rectify those issues, therefore making it more reliable/near-futuristic? Maybe a different ammo type ("Various conflicts in the late 20th and early 21st Century showed how lacking the 5.56mm NATO round was, and decided to change it to the *new ammo* NATO round")?

Personally, I've never shot any G36 in real life, so I can only speak from that what I talked about with my father. He said that they were always taught to double-tap while using the 5.56 because the cartridge does not have much man-stopping-power and just goes through the target at high speed.

Not sure if it's the same with other ARs using the 5.56 calibre.