American blacks seek money and land

[Guest]

Ok. Lets not have the religion discussion again. It is not fair to DOR. If he starts talking religion again he will end up loosing his posting rights again

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Aug. 18 2002,15:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Religion has something to do with peace! Just because you say you do something in the name of religion does not mean you are doing it for that reason. How can you say Christianity is not peaceful? Have you experienced it? Christ is about peace for our lives, and do not get on me for doing this I was mearly responding.

Believing in God is the only true way to obtain peace, with out Him the world will never be peaceful.<span id='postcolor'>

Duke, im sorry to bring this to your attention, but its this kind of attitude that im talking about. You think christianity is the ONLY way to live. The ONLY way to be peaceful. As if to say that all the other billions of Good-Hearted, innocent people, who wouldnt hurt a fly if they were payed to, might as well not even exist just because they dont share your faith.

[GreyKnight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 19 2002,001)

Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 18 2002,14:52)

People talk about wars being started over religion, go on name one!

...............AFGHANISTAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Pheh! Look at those infidels! Lets fly Airplanes into one of their national monuments and kill thousands of people for their not believing in Allah!"

Dont get me wrong, i dont condone our presence in Afghanistan the way it is. Personally, i think our whole force in that area has its head up its ass. I hear about all these people who've "Sighted" Bin Landen, and not one of them had a gun!? Come On!!! Whole other discussion though.

That was not because they were "infidels" but because they commited crimes against muslims, or so they see it. Besides, they may claim to practice the Islamic faith, but they do not truly follow it's teaching!

Besides, one religion does not condemn them all.<span id='postcolor'>

PRECISELY! But they THINK they follow it which is equally as bad! You say that the Pope preaches the peace of Christianity? Christianity is radically different to the Asian religions and I can assure you that the Muslims and Hindus and the rest of them think that Christianity is a weak and faithless faith?!? (if you see what I mean). Their religion preaches so much fire and brimstone crap that they are all scared to death of what their gods might do to them if they don't follow their holy books precisely!

The major point I want to get across is that the power hungry rulers of all these countries use their peoples fear of their gods to justify their actions against their enemies. Maybe the religion doesn't mean to incite hatred and suffering, but its presence allows the corrupt leaders of the world to use the awesome power of religion to their own evil advantage...

[GreyKnight 0]

Aaaargh, sorry Aculaud, I quoted the wrong post! I meant to quote Paratrooper...

[Paratrooper 0]

Is fire bad because it can burn you?

You heard what the man said, lets wind up the god-talk!

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 18 2002,15:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok. Lets not have the religion discussion again. It is not fair to DOR. If he starts talking religion again he will end up loosing his posting rights again <span id='postcolor'>

Permanently?

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 19 2002,00:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 18 2002,15:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok. Lets not have the religion discussion again. It is not fair to DOR. If he starts talking religion again he will end up loosing his posting rights again <span id='postcolor'>

Permanently? <span id='postcolor'>

Probably not. But I can tell you that if someone knowingly pushes his buttons and gets him post restricted, I might see that they share his fate.

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 18 2002,15:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 19 2002,00:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Aug. 18 2002,15:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ok. Lets not have the religion discussion again. It is not fair to DOR. If he starts talking religion again he will end up loosing his posting rights again <span id='postcolor'>

Permanently? <span id='postcolor'>

Probably not.  But I can tell you that if someone knowingly pushes his buttons and gets him post restricted, I might see that they share his fate. <span id='postcolor'>

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

I want to respond so bad, but I know when to keep my fingers still.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Aug. 19 2002,00:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I want to respond so bad, but I know when to keep my fingers still. <span id='postcolor'>

good lord, he learns!

Aculaud, dont pout. It's not nice to push peoples buttons, no matter how much fun you might have doing it.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

I wonder what yall say about me in the moderator forum?

Anyways is it just me or has this thread got of the original topic?

[Aculaud 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 18 2002,1600)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Aculaud, dont pout.  It's not nice to push peoples buttons, no matter how much fun you might have doing it.<span id='postcolor'>

Youre only saying that cause youre a mod!

And yes, Duke, this topic has strayed quite a bit. SO! Back on topic...

America is an Empire weather people like it or not. We should not have forced the Native American cultures from their land (Defined as theirs because they DID get it before we got here.), just like we should not have brought slaves over from Africa. However, nothing we do, short of building a time machine, will fix these things. If people want better lives, they need to learn to work for them instead of bringing things up that happened over 2 centuries ago. As i said, if they want to fight racism, then fight the people who are actually racist. I'm a white guy, i live in the US, and i have never been seriously racist in my life, nor do i plan to be ever, just because of how stupid it is. I also know how people act when they are racist, and i can say that a great many people have acted that way towards me throughout my entire school life. You dont exactly see me rallying support from all the other out casts out there wanting the government to pay me a reward for taking shit.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

The Africans did sell them to us, so the white man is not the only one to balme for slavery.

[Aculaud 0]

I have never heard anything like that before. Whats your source on that?

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

MAybe I got this mixed up with another story. I look it up, and get back to ya on it.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aculaud @ Aug. 19 2002,01:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I have never heard anything like that before. Whats your source on that?<span id='postcolor'>

Black kngdoms in Africa profited greatly from the slave trade, or at least their Kings did. Blacks would often be captured by other Blacks to be resold to white slavers, saving them the job. Or did you imagine them patroling Africa capturing them? Because this did not happen.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Combination of things. Slavers mostly harvested from tribes that were further inland that had no idea what was going on, and yes, Im sure there were a few black slavers, but they were in the minority. I have seen no documented cases of people selling their relatives into slavery.

Slavery, like any business, was not one big monolithic enterprise, but rather consisted of several layers of middlemen. There are the harvesters, people who catch tribespeople in inland Africa, and transport them to coastal settlements. There, they would sell them to a transporter, who would deal in moving slaves across oceans, whether it be to Europe or America. His main interest would be in getting as many slaves across at once as possible, which led to awful hygeine and overcrowding on slave ships.

When he reached his destination, he would most likely sell them to an auctioneer, who would then sell the slaves to people who needed the labor. I can see some of the harvesters involved being blacks, but from there til the final sale, the slave business consisted almost exclusively of whites.

[Warin 0]

IANAR.

It is painful sometimes to see the African American agenda of blaming everything on slavery and racism. Dont have a job? Repression by the white establishment! Or it could just be that the cycle of poverty in the first world can be terribly hard to break, no matter what colour your skin is.

But it isnt impossible.

Anyone ever seen the movie 'The Hurricane'?

There was this kid who started writing to Hurricane Carter that helped get hm oput of jail. He was semi litterate at best until some folks from Toronto met him in NYC and took him in and helped him get an education. He broke the cycle of poverty and has a lovely wife and child and is a successful lawyer. I happen to know this because he stops by and says hello whenever he comes by where I work.

Instead of asking for land and money, perhaps a better solution is to fight for better early education for every youth in America. To fight to see that kids dont go hungry. To fight to see that everyone has a chance to see a doctor when they get sick... Regardless of what colour their skin is. Giving minorities special treatment doesnt change things one bit...it just highlights the differences and creates more resentment. And who wants that??

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (advocatexxx @ Aug. 18 2002,19:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">From MSNBC - http://www.msnbc.com/news/793255.asp

WASHINGTON, Aug. 17 —  Hundreds of blacks rallied Saturday in front of the Capitol to demand slavery reparations, saying that compensation is long overdue for the ills of that institution.

“IT SEEMS THAT America owes black people a lot for what we have endured,†the Rev. Louis Farrakhan, leader of the Nation of Islam, told the crowd. “We cannot settle for some little jive token. We need millions of acres of land that black people can build.â€

      “We’re not begging white people,†said Farrakhan, one of several speakers at a rally organizers billed as “Millions for Reparations.†“We are just demanding what is justly ours.â€

HIGH-PROFILE ACTIVISTS SKIP EVENT

While Farrakhan and Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., did attend, many major names in the black civil rights movement were absent, including the Rev. Jesse Jackson and the Rev. Al Sharpton.

      “The people on the ground are the ones we want to give exposure to,†said one of the speakers, Hannibal Afrik, 68, of Port Gibson, Miss. “If it’s grounded in the people, it will be victorious.â€

      Conyers, who has proposed a commission to study the institution of slavery for the past 13 years, urged the crowd to pressure Congress.

      “Only the Congress can do what we want done,†Conyers said. Lawmakers are on their summer break until September.

      The reparations movement has gained momentum in the past year.

      Earlier this year, a group of slave descendants sued three companies, claiming the companies or their corporate predecessors unjustly profited from slavery.

The Reparations Coordinating Committee, which includes many prominent lawyers and scholars, is working on a separate lawsuit against the federal government.

      Those at the rally said it was time for action.

      “They owe us. I want justice,†said Antoinette Harrell-Miller, who drove 19 hours from New Orleans with her husband, Dennis, to attend. “They built this country off the free labor of our ancestors.â€

      Jaki Mungai of Philadelphia called the rally “a dream that’s starting to come true.â€

      “Every other group has been compensated for the wrongs done against them. Africans in America — we are the only ones who haven’t,†said Mungai, who heard about the rally on the radio and decided to join in.

      Ken McDouall of Durham, N.C., one of a handful of whites at the rally, said the reparations issue “cuts to the core of the history of injustice of America.â€

      “America likes to pretend there are equal rights for everyone, but look at the history of black people,†McDouall said.

I don't know about you but I'm quite frankly getting tired of this.  If they had any bit of logic left they'd realize that history cannot be "changed" or fixed by asking for money.  In my opinion they are merely using it as an excuse to earn free land and cash.<span id='postcolor'>

If Germany has to pay for Nazi concentration camps, then I don't see why the US shouldn't be paying for slavery.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ex-RoNiN @ Aug. 19 2002,01:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If Germany has to pay for Nazi concentration camps, then I don't see why the US shouldn't be paying for slavery.<span id='postcolor'>

Totally different situation.

If, 50 years ago, the US had begun systematically rounding up Africans and forcably sending them to the US as slaves...then yes, the US should pay reparations.

Dont forget that the abolition of slavery was one of the causes of the bloodiest war that the US has ever fought.

I have to head home for work..so I cant wait to see where this goes.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 19 2002,02:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Dont forget that the abolition of slavery was one of the causes of the bloodiest war that the US has ever fought.<span id='postcolor'>

well, thats a tad oversimplification of the causes, but certainly slavery was at the core of the conflict.

[Othin 0]

I just can't agree with this at all. It also begs the question of where will the land come from? Are they demanding land outside of cities, or from the parks system, or are they planning to take land away from other American citizens? I guess I just don't get it.

Am I sorry for what's happened in the past? Absolutely. But I don't think this is going to do anything to heal any "wounds", if anything it will just cause more resentment. How will they decide who gets the land? Will every African American get their own land to build on? If not who decides who's more deserving. Are they going to investigate the family tree of every African American citizen in the United States and decide that this one should get more land then that one because his family suffered more??

And if this does happen, isn't it the reverse of what everyone has been working for since the 60's? They would basically be self-segregating themselves if a large population of African Americans just up and moved to this chunk of land.

That is one thing I've really come to enjoy about the military. For the most part, at least in the Navy, I haven't seen any racism. It's nice to go to base housing and see kids of all colors and creeds playing with each other, and families BBQing or chatting together.

[ralphwiggum 6]

well, this is why we need Affirmative action back. As Warin stated, better education to better enable blacks to survive this world would be the most effective way.

it is of no use to trace back ancestry and give land to repay it. however, i think they need to look into future and try to secure methods to better themselves for tomorrow.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If Germany has to pay for Nazi concentration camps, then I don't see why the US shouldn't be paying for slavery.

Totally different situation.

If, 50 years ago, the US had begun systematically rounding up Africans and forcably sending them to the US as slaves...then yes, the US should pay reparations.

Dont forget that the abolition of slavery was one of the causes of the bloodiest war that the US has ever fought.

I have to head home for work..so I cant wait to see where this goes.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL! The main cuase of the War for Southern Independence was not slavery! It was states rights, and other things! Sure slavery had some thing to do with it, but was not the core. The South would have freed the slaves, so do not go saying the SOuth was any more racsist than the North! The North did not care about the blacks!

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Aug. 19 2002,03:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If Germany has to pay for Nazi concentration camps, then I don't see why the US shouldn't be paying for slavery.

Totally different situation.

If, 50 years ago, the US had begun systematically rounding up Africans and forcably sending them to the US as slaves...then yes, the US should pay reparations.

Dont forget that the abolition of slavery was one of the causes of the bloodiest war that the US has ever fought.

I have to head home for work..so I cant wait to see where this goes.<span id='postcolor'>

LOL! The main cuase of the War for Southern Independence was not slavery! It was states rights, and other things! Sure slavery had some thing to do with it, but was not the core. The South would have freed the slaves, so do not go saying the SOuth was any more racsist than the North! The North did not care about the blacks!<span id='postcolor'>

The North was just as racist as the south, it all boiled down to money (naturally! ). The Southern economy relied on blacks, and the North was industrial. The issue was forced when the North kept getting more states to outnumber the south in congress. (Ever wondered where Maine came from?)

This forced the South to go independant, the North did not distill and forcibly re-united them. Lincoln himself said "If abolishing slavery would save the Union I would do it, If keeping slavery would save the Union I would do it." He had the perception and good judgement to know that if America was to survive the machinations of Britain and France they would need to be united.