Geometry Lod Issue

[eagledude4 3]

I had some people help me with a similar issue in another thread (with a title unrelated to Geometry Lods), but I am still having issues with collision ingame. I've made sure that:

1. My Geometry Lod is simple
   
2. My Geometry Lod doesn't contain walkable surfaces
   

Edited September 11, 2012 by eagledude4

[Robster 11]

GENERAL TIPS:

- every single component in geometry lods must be all closed and mostly convex shapes...

all closed means you have to make all faces... your stairs didn't have any polys on top... you must make those polys and then copy only top polys and paste them on roadway lod if you want characters walking over them... there is a tool for checking faces... look here

- go to geo lod and

press CTRL+A (select all)

press CTRL+U (sharp edges) this is mandatory for all geo lods... otherwise (smooth edges) they don't work

EDIT2: Oooops!!! and don't forget to assign MASS to every points in Geo LOD XD ... I guess 1 mass = 1 kg

CTRL+A -> Then put some value at left bottom corner in oxygen main window...

- your stairs geo must be like this (from side view) the same apply for roadway (which may be the same top polys in geo...

- also may be convenient to convert geo lods and roadway into TRIS to notice if oxygen doesn't like something...

CTRL+A -> Structure -> Triangulate

- always remember to check as this :

Structure -> Topology -> Find non-closed

Structure -> Convexity -> Find non-convexities

if oxygen doesn't like anything it will show red dots where the problem is... when you fix'em, geometries get working...

how to fix'em?

- non-closed points: usually you may go to:

points -> merge near

- non convexities:

once you did : Structure -> Topology - Find components ... then select each troublesome single component and:

Structure -> Convexity -> convex hull OR

Structure -> Convexity -> component convex hull

there are more options in there but i really do not know how to use them and what they do :P

nice model BTW

cheers!

EDIT: Many of those tips do not apply for Res LOD since this is eye candy and can have open polys, non closed points, smooth and sharp edges... etc

Edited September 11, 2012 by Robster

[eagledude4 3]

Thanks for the tips, but there's a few things I want to point out.

1. When I try and find non-closed, all my points light up red. I think this has something to do with a "No points in mesh" error when I import my model.

2. If I triangulate my model, wouldn't every face be a convexity?

3. If I merge near, my geometry becomes completely messed up (when using detect)

4. My roadway LOD behaves as expected.

I also have a few questions:

1. What does it mean when my structure is non closed? Is it a face that's non closed? If a face is shaded, does that mean it is closed?

2. How do I stop oxygen from triangulating my faces on import?

Edited September 11, 2012 by eagledude4

[Robster 11]

When I try and find non-closed, all my points light up red. I think this has something to do with a "No points in mesh" error when I import my model.

I really do not know... I ignore which external tool you are using to import... there are some plugins to do the importing job and perhaps you should be studying some of them...

If I triangulate my model, wouldn't every face be a convexity?

When you convert quads to tris you shouldn't be breaking convexity at all (if already present), since those new tris polys remain coplanar

If I merge near, my geometry becomes completely messed up (when using detect)

That's probably because you are selecting the whole thing or more than one component at the same time... then you have to select by single components or even manually taking only needed points to get a single body... thinking in terms of boxes is the easy way... but you can make complex rounded shapes also...

please read again my older post because I forgot to mention Mass... I mean, mass+sharp edges make geometries working... if it doesn't work I suggest to work on a very basic shape... even not the whole model but a single part... when you get it working then you can move on to the next part just while you grasp the idea about validating geometries... it might be a bit easier to find any mistake in the process... and stairs definitely are a ramp like shape in all models because if you let them to be squarish your character will be jumping or will get stuck when trying to walk over them...

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/61945206/example1.png

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/61945206/example2.png

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/61945206/example3.png

maybe these examples give you some ideas... look how geometries are not related to roadways in some cases... i did not make all geometries which means that if you shoot stairs bullets might go through... but they will stop in geo walls anyways... so i do not need geo for stairs in this case... got it? perhaps I have to do intermediate geo floors to prevent someone shooting at ceilings on bottom floors and hitting people at upper floors... are you getting the idea???? remember that you can assign penetration properties on components to simulate concrete, wood, granite, etc... check out at p:\ca\data\penetration .. you can assign these definitions into rvmat in geometries...

CTRL+A -> CTRL+E

My roadway LOD behaves as expected.

I refer to my example

What does it mean when my structure is non closed? Is it a face that's non closed? If a face is shaded, does that mean it is closed?

Let's take as example a single box shape... attached pic for better further explanation

normally it should have 6 faces/polygons and 8 points/vertices... right? the same shape with tris has 12 faces/polys and the very same 8 points/vertices...

well, sometimes happens that this shape may have more points because some vertices were not joined ... for example a box corner that has more than 1 point and has 3 points... which means tree polys/faces that are not joined togheter... they are single separate polys... it looks as a closed box shape but it's only a bunch of isolated polys arranged to look as a single box... got it?

there you have to select near points and merge them till your box has standard or usual number of points and polys as stated before...

then, we can say an structure, a single component or a shape is closed when all their faces are joined at their vertices and all their vertices are joined to the same shape... there are no isolated vertices nor polys alone (for geo lods those isolated points or faces don't work)... in a closed shape all points and faces belong to the same shape as happens with 8 points box example... if I delete any face on that box it won't be considered as closed... even when having 8 points... a face will be missing...

A single face all alone or isolated is a non closed shape and it has to be connected somehow to another faces to make a "geometry working" shape... the idea is to get some "air enclosed inside the bottle", or better said, inside the "closed box"

I do not know what a shadow may mean in a given context... and I never stick to perspective view in oxygen when dealing with this stuff... I just use oxygen to validate geometries... if something is wrong i make adjustments using an external tool... i.e.: blender

How do I stop oxygen from triangulating my faces on import?

Why do you want to prevent oxygen to triangulate polys...? that's not a bad thing since GPU will be processing tris and afaik binarized models are all tris converted anyways... so tris or quads is just for easy design purposes...

Anyways, I do not know how to prevent that, but as you can make tris you can make squares:

CTRL+A -> Structure -> Squarize (OR) Squarize all lods

Edited September 11, 2012 by Robster
FOR BETTER READING

[eagledude4 3]

Thank you for replying with so much info.

1. I just finished merging all the verticies but they're still showing as red when I find non-closed. Every red verticie shows as only one point, so what seems to be the issue?

2. I don't want oxygen to triangulate, because I already triangulated before I exported my model.

Edited September 11, 2012 by eagledude4

[Robster 11]

You're welcome :)

If oxygen says something is non closed is because you have some missing or flipped faces... did you try checking faces into oxygen...

Also remember that everytime you merge anything you have to do all the checks again, since overall shape was changed... special attention deserves that "find components" function because some components may disappear...

If it was already triangulated nothing happens, so it's a good advice to do tris again in oxygen since you can find some lost or unknown point or face in there...

---------- Post added at 07:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:14 PM ----------

There you have your geo: 3 components 32 points 52 faces total... all sharp edges and 3200 mass

learn some ;)

LAST EDIT: Same thing with roadways included (top geo faces only)

Edited September 11, 2012 by Robster

[eagledude4 3]

oh wait, I guess when checking faces, everything being red is a good thing. Also, When checking for non closed, no faces are red, but the verticies are. That's how it should be right?

http://www.mediafire.com/?3c68a3akydloj51

Edited September 11, 2012 by eagledude4

[Robster 11]

lol

nop

that's not right... I do not see all faces and some other should not be there...

you better download working geos and roadways already attached in my last post... and see how it has to be done...

you can import it directly into your model...

and do not forget to tell where you failed at this very forum... so others can learn too...

saludos washo!

[eagledude4 3]

lol

that's not right... I do not see all faces and some other should not be there...

I just took a look at the file I uploaded and I'm seeing all faces red when I checked faces. And as for which faces shouldn't be there, which ones are you referring to?

lolyou better download working geos and roadways already attached in my last post... and see how it has to be done...

I noticed you included walkable surfaces. I was told they were only needed in the roadway Lod. I also think starting the ramp at the top stair would disable the player from walking sideways off the staircase, no? Also, looking at the model doesn't tell me much about the process.

Also, To add mass, do I just select everything in my geo lod and assign a number? Do I use kilograms? Do static objects need mass?

Edited September 11, 2012 by eagledude4

[Robster 11]

this is how it should be looking

[eagledude4 3]

I looked at the file :P Refresh the page, I updated my last comment a bit.

I also forgot to triangulize. After adding mass and triangulizing, I'm still able to walk through the model. Although the roadway lod works as intended.

The only difference between our models are the ramps and you include the roadway lod geometry in your geometry lod.

Edited September 11, 2012 by eagledude4

[Robster 11]

lol

as I read your comments i can see that you are still a bit confused... which is a natural part of the learning process... perhaps if you come around later you might realize that you could understand all that was explained... get some rest and it might be helpful for you to look at bis sample models

EDIT: I could clearly see what you are missing...

you made only platform surroundings faces but did not put any face on top or below and your

stairs do not have correct shape... it seems like you copy&paste res lod which doesn't work in this situation

stairs must have a very basic ramp shape... do not argue with me or ask me why... this is how it is in arma engine... ok?

so, basic geo has a platform with faces on top, bottom and surroundings and two basic boxes like block with a proper ramp according to stairs angle...

To make this I took all your 16 surrounding corner points that shape platform and made corresponding faces

Then I took 4 external corners of one stairs block and made corresponding faces extruding them to match platform

Then I made the same thing for the other stairs block...

Then "find components" again and then oxygen told me that main platform has some convexity issues, so I selected that component and made a "component convex hull" and it was solved...

to finish, I selected all, I made sharp edges and introduce mass (1 mass = 1 kg)

as working geo has 32 points I set 3200 as mass value (100 kg per point... perhaps It's a bit too much) here you can see how it looks once you set mass, save, close and open again the thing... there you have a new mass component which means mass is present at geo lod showing blue dots

it looks like this which is obsviously different and it does not have any extra point as you might find looking at your geo

if you still can't grasp the thing I guess I am a failure as a teacher... and I will never post anything around here :(

Edited September 11, 2012 by Robster

[eagledude4 3]

I altered my stairs to resemble the ramp you displayed.

Where does it say if the component has issues?

When I highlight my entire model, it shows 32 points and 34 faces. Is this what you have as well? Every face I select either has 3 or 4 points, and I've made sure to sharpen the edges.

Edited September 12, 2012 by eagledude4

[Robster 11]

you're getting closer...

you have 32 points, so I presume you have 16 vertices for your octagon shaped platform... and also you have 16 vertices on your stairs block, 8 vertices each... that's good

but you only have 34 faces... ? tris, quads?

if you make things only with tris you should have 52 polys... which is the minimun amount of triangle faces needed to make those 3 closed components

sorrounding octagon shaped platform has 16 triangle faces; on top you have 6 tris plus 6 tris at bottom... total tris present in this component = 16 + 6 + 6 = 28 triangle polygons or 28 tris faces

then each block component has 12 tris faces, so total polys is 28 + 12 + 12 = 52 polys ... good!

So, make your tris in this lod... you should know how to do it yet... if you don't, read again my first post in this thread...

When you reach that amount of points and corresponding triangle faces distributed in three components you will be near to success...

Where does it say if the component has issues?

You must check if your components are working right:

1. so you do find components in structure menu, then find non-convexities at the same menu to see if you get anything in red color:

if all components are ok, there won't be anything red to see in your oxygen viewports... I mean, after seeking for non convexities it seems like nothing happens when geometries are ok... oxygen viewports looks the same with no changes at all...

otherwise, oxygen will show some red points or red edges complaining about troublesome parts... if you know which component(s) is(are) having issue(s) then select it(them) and solve corresponding issue(s) using component convex hull option inside structure menu...

2. If you did apply those convex functions, then check everything again... I mean, repeat the above procedure again to see if you keep having red dots:

if you keep having issues, you can undo last steps and repeat them again using another convex function...

3. when every issue is adressed and solved then yo do the last thing:

convert all into sharp edges and apply mass according structure: volume, materials involved, mesh points, etc...

When I highlight my entire model, it shows 32 points and 34 faces. Is this what you have as well?

if you look closer at geo uploaded by me you will notice that oxygen shows useful info regarding number of point and faces, sections, selected faces and size on disk... read all that

looking at left bottom of your oxygen gui...

Every face I select either has 3 or 4 points, and I've made sure to sharpen the edges.

which means that you're playing with tris and quads... better convert all into tris, so you will be sure that your model does not have any amount of "extra fat" on it... anyways, if really you know what you're doing you can do tris or quads and everything should work the same...

Edited September 12, 2012 by Robster

[eagledude4 3]

Alright, after some tweaking I managed to get 52 faces.

When I find non-closed, the points on the stairs and the octagon connected face are red. When fixing the faces, I created faces in the stairs that were part of the octagon, but I flipped the normals of those faces so that they weren't visible when facing the octagon.

In the second image, I removed the front faces so you could see what I meant.

Looking at your model, I can see you overlapped the octagon faces and the staircase faces. I noticed by doing this you eliminate non-closed faces, but I don't understand why. (I have since changed my model to replicate what you have, but would still like an explanation for this)

I also noticed that where you have 4 points I only have two.

Your Model:

My Model:

I can't see how having two points overlapping each other can correct.

Other than the that our staircases are identical, so why does mine flag as being non-convex, and yours does not?

So far I've been triangulating without choosing "triangulate convex", so I decided to give it a try by squarizing all my faces, and then selecting everything and choosing "triangulate convexities", but when I try and find non-convexities, all my points are still red. O deleted all the faces of my octagon and managed to get both my staircases convex, but as soon as I connect one of the octagon's faces to one of the staircases, it flags as being non-convex. I think the reason for this has to do with the problem I pointed out before with yours having 4 points and mine having two.

I'm also having an issue assigning mass. Can you give me a quick walkthrough?

Edited September 12, 2012 by eagledude4

[[aps]gnat 28]

Robster has a lot of patience ...... :thumbs:

ED,

I think your trying to make 1 object. As I've (and others) said before, make it out of several different but simple shapes / cubes.

In this case it looks like 6 cubes.

1 for each stairs, 4 for the platform.

DONT join them together, just place them so they are side by side.

[eagledude4 3]

Gnat;2222789']Robster has a lot of patience ...... :thumbs:

ED' date='

I think your trying to make 1 object. As I've (and others) said before, make it out of several different but simple shapes / cubes.

In this case it looks like 6 cubes.

1 for each stairs, 4 for the platform.

DONT join them together, just place them so they are side by side.[/quote']

I don't fully understand, I have 3 different components, so woundn't that be 3 different objects?

Not joining them sounds like a good idea. Although I'm unsure on how to go about doing that.

Edited September 12, 2012 by eagledude4

[Robster 11]

@gnat: raising karma here!

this fellow mate doesn't need 6 cubes ... I already uploaded full working geo lod for him with 3 components: octagon and two side stairs bodies...

@dude: working geo has 3 separated components that's why you see in my model 4 selected points: 2 points belong to octagon and 2 points belong to stairs block... those geometrical bodies are independent from each other -which is good to make geo lods- and all of them have faces "sticked" all around -they must have to be considered as closed objects-

If you join your octagon with your neighbour blocks is bad because you make a non-convex single object and thus geometry won't work in anyway...

I can respectfully see that your questions are full of prejudices about what you think it should be but not really connected to how it is indeed... so your learning process is such slow cause you assume some noisy beliefs as truth due to some kind of former misconception in your development, as a modeler naturally... and thus you are making wrong questions... flex your mind... let enlightment come into you and despite any previous assumption to move ahead... you may relay your confidence in the best teacher you can have ... yourself... (aaaaaahhhhhhhhh... music begins to play at background)

For instance, you want a quick walkthrough about assigning mass... but you do not explain what is your issue with it... so, why do you think i know more than you know about it? So, you may see this does not have any relation with gathering knowledge through experience but mojo...

Further evidence: I can't see how having two points overlapping each other can correct. you said it pal, why can't you see it as being correct...? so, raise awareness of thyself and awake your consciousness about not being able to see... ask yourself:

why I can not see?

what do I need to see?

WHY do I need to see... ?

simple straight questions...

deepsh*t... (murmur.... swooooosh... music turns into some fluffy kind of silence)

As you walk your path in search for the truth... I'll walk mine right into the kitchen... and some breakfast ... cause this pondering made me a bit hungry yummm!

[eagledude4 3]

@gnat: raising karma here!

this fellow mate doesn't need 6 cubes ... I already uploaded full working geo lod for him with 3 components: octagon and two side stairs bodies...

I'm using your model as a learning tool, I'm not going to take it and leave :P

@dude: working geo has 3 separated components that's why you see in my model 4 selected points: 2 points belong to octagon and 2 points belong to stairs block... those geometrical bodies are independent from each other -which is good to make geo lods- and all of them have faces "sticked" all around -they must have to be considered as closed objects-

OH. Okay that makes more sense. I wasn't under the impression that the objects were actually seprerated from eachother. Could you give me a quick process on what you did to separate them?

For instance, you want a quick walkthrough about assigning mass... but you do not explain what is your issue with it... so, why do you think i know more than you know about it?

I did explain :P When I assign mass to the components, the masses change. I know you know more than me about it because your masses properly represent the points.

Further evidence: I can't see how having two points overlapping each other can correct. you said it pal, why can't you see it as being correct...? so, raise awareness of thyself and awake your consciousness about not being able to see... ask yourself:

Like I said before, I didn't realize that the components were actually independant from each other.

As you walk your path in search for the truth... I'll walk mine right into the kitchen... and some breakfast ... cause this pondering made me a bit hungry yummm!

Bacon and eggs please :)

Edited September 12, 2012 by eagledude4

[Robster 11]

I'm using your model as a learning tool, I'm not going to take it and leave :P

And that's why this is so rewarding ;)

OH. Okay that makes more sense. I wasn't under the impression that the objects were actually seprerated from eachother. Could you give me a quick process on what you did to separate them?

I did already in post #14... not #12... but I didn't "separate" anything as you say -more assumptions- I did copy&paste only needed points for making those bodies...

I did explain :P When I assign mass to the components, the masses change. I know you know more than me about it because yours are correct, where as I can't even get the right mass assigned.

???

Total mass change anytime you change that value even in just one single point...

If you want to start all over again delete mass in component window and also delete it from named properties window, save, open it again, select all points at geo lod and assign your new mass, then save close and open again to check your desired changes ...

I never do something like that but all of this is for learning purposes...

Regarding mass values, I haven't found any specific info... perhaps some tutorial about it would be good... since I guess there are some specific values for some specific kind of objects... but that's my own assumption... so do not bother really... we are all the time guessing things with BI stuff... that's our community's life :p

Like I said before, I didn't realize that the all the components were actually independant from each other.

Glad to know that, at the end of the day, you'll be mastering this stuff :dancehead:

Bacon and eggs please :)

ooops!

I'm a veggy freak... so coffe and a paprika paste sandwich is a quite happy meal ... and a tasty one also :p

I'm in the Abel veggy groove more than into Cain's meaty sacrifice stuff... (aaaaaaahhhh rampanting music start all over again)

Edited September 12, 2012 by Robster

[max power 21]

To add mass, do I just select everything in my geo lod and assign a number? Do I use kilograms? Do static objects need mass?

You add mass by vertex, but you can also assign mass to many vertices at once. The number is in kilograms but not everything in ArmA is weighted realistically, or even in a realistic ball park. To be on the safe side, I would give your static object mass. I'm not sure if it's required but it's a 2 or 3 click process and would save you a lot of grief later trying to troubleshoot collision problems if the geoLOD wasn't weighted.

[eagledude4 3]

Thanks Max, although I think I'd prefer to assign the mass to the whole component instead of one point at a time (I think that's what you meant). Either that or you meant the mass was related to Points in general, which I'm already aware of.

I just seperated my 2 staircase components from the main octagon piece, and everything checks out. No non-closed or non convexities. This also solved my mass issue (masses changing automatically). I'd still like to know how to add a mass component that shows the points as blue like robster has.

I tested the pbo ingame, and the geometry lod works like a charm :) Should I copy and paste the contents of the geometry lod into the fire geometry lod?

Edited September 13, 2012 by eagledude4

[max power 21]

All I mean is you can assign different masses to different points to move the centre of gravity of an object... so each point has a mass parameter. In other words, the total mass of the object is derived from the mass of each point. For efficiency's sake I would not recommend assigning mass to each vertex individually ^_^

If you don't require a more detailed fire geometry volume then the geoLOD should do an alright job. It would make a satisfactory base at any rate, since you know it's working as a geoLOD.

[Robster 11]

Glad to see that after a couple of days (and up to 10 posts) you got it...

Do not get worry about those blue points... they are just visual hints but nothing else... if you want to see them open your current p3d then go to geo lod and select mass inside your "named selection" panel ... if that windows is empty -which i doubt- then go to structure and find components to get them appearing...

If you do not see named selection panel then ---->>>>> CTRL + L

Saludos mi estimado padawan ! hahahaha