Bounding overwatch not working anymore?

[Bouben 3]

Hello guys,

I have recently installed OA 1.60 after few months of not playing and was very surprised that AI is not performing bounding overwatch when ordered by player to move both alone or in teams in either stealth or danger mode.

They don't peak from corners anymore, don't look around, don't check their mates. They basically move very fast and close to the careless mode even in area with many buildings.

Everything is allright when moving with their leader (player or AI).

Is this a new "feature" or some bug? I found this behaviour quite unfortunate.

Has anyone the same problem as me?

Thank you!

Edit:

they don't even stop to kill an enemy they've spotted even if very close (few meters) and just continue moving to ordered position.

I would understand this behaviour in hold fire with aware mode but in stealth or combat mode this is really a problem.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Bouben
new facts

[maturin 12]

I believe that, during the circus that was BIS' handling of AI combat movement, they made Move orders supersede bounding to some extent. This was in some beta patch or other.

I haven't ever experienced anything so dramatic as what you describe, but movement orders should generally be thought of as a poor stance for fighting in. Tell your AI to stop, find cover or follow and they'll be more effective.

[Bouben 3]

I believe that, during the circus that was BIS' handling of AI combat movement, they made Move orders supersede bounding to some extent. This was in some beta patch or other.

I haven't ever experienced anything so dramatic as what you describe, but movement orders should generally be thought of as a poor stance for fighting in. Tell your AI to stop, find cover or follow and they'll be more effective.

Thanks for the reply.

I think we should not search for a workaround then but for a fix, because this makes the game worse than before. It used to work quite well but now it is not working at all. Also I don't understand why is it working when AI is moving together with a leader and not when moving as a part of a team. I think this should be considered as a bug.

I wait for some more comments from you guys and then consider making a ticket on devheaven.

[jakerod 254]

Thanks for the reply.

I think we should not search for a workaround then but for a fix, because this makes the game worse than before. It used to work quite well but now it is not working at all. Also I don't understand why is it working when AI is moving together with a leader and not when moving as a part of a team. I think this should be considered as a bug.

I wait for some more comments from you guys and then consider making a ticket on devheaven.

I believe the reason they changed it was because a lot of us were upset that the AI wouldn't follow our move orders. With me for example, I would tell guys to move to a piece of cover and they would keep doing bounding overwatch even though it was far safer for them to keep running. I like it better this way because I only tell them to move if I need them to move. I don't like them stopping every 5 meters and getting killed for doing it. If you want them to do overwatch just tell them to move 10m then tell the next guy to move 10m past him and then the second guy 10m past him etc.

[Bouben 3]

I believe the reason they changed it was because a lot of us were upset that the AI wouldn't follow our move orders.

But they actually do overwatch when in danger or stealth mode and moving with you and are actually very fast. Much faster than they have used to be so I dont see any problem in the overwatch behaviour itself.

I think this is a too radical change, because now you cannot send a team A to flank the enemy while you move with a team B because the team A would not cover at all.

I dont understand this "solution" of taking it away completely and I think that with the actual fast and responsive overwatch it should be used when in danger and stealth mode.

Moreover, they ignore enemies while moving and that is a serious problem that is reminding me of old OFP days. I can not send them to do anything anymore.

[jakerod 254]

But they actually do overwatch when in danger or stealth mode and moving with you and are actually very fast. Much faster than they have used to be so I dont see any problem in the overwatch behaviour itself.

I think this is a too radical change, because now you cannot send a team A to flank the enemy while you move with a team B because the team A would not cover at all.

I dont understand this "solution" of taking it away completely and I think that with the actual fast and responsive overwatch it should be used when in danger and stealth mode.

Moreover, they ignore enemies while moving and that is a serious problem that is reminding me of old OFP days. I can not send them to do anything anymore.

The problem was that there was no way to override the overwatch behavior in case we wanted them to move someplace without stopping. For example, having them sprint across a street with a tank at the end of it. They used to run, stop in the middle, sit there for a minute, start running again and then get gunned down by the tank before they made it to the other side. Now they will actually run across the street and commonly survive. The other problem was that if you were in a shitty situation and you needed your men to run away they wouldn't do it. They would keep stopping and looking and more common than not if you are telling them to run away you want them to keep running away. Otherwise you can just tell manually tell them to do overwatch.

I'm fairly sure that squad tactics are that Team A covers Team B while Team B moves up to the next position. Then when Team A moves Team B covers. Not Both teams go running off by themselves. Fire teams are meant to cover one another. I also could've sworn that they still do do overwatch if you tell them to move as a team but I could be wrong.

[maturin 12]

Also I don't understand why is it working when AI is moving together with a leader and not when moving as a part of a team.

I just told you. When they are following the leader in formation, their behavior is normal. When the leader gives them a Move order to go and do something independently, they make haste. If you want your men to leave formation and fight effectively, try giving them Engage orders. Of course, Engage vs Target commands are also a nightmare. I recommend just having the AI fight at your side or back. It's where they're best.

Jakerod: The (hokey) way to disable bounding overwatch is the delta or column formation. Since I know about this workaround, I am conflicted about the Move order behavior as it stand. I generally know better than to send AI to cover, since they will often misinterpret what I mean by 'cover.'

[jakerod 254]

Jakerod: \I am conflicted about the Move order behavior as it stand. I generally know better than to send AI to cover, since they will often misinterpret what I mean by 'cover.'

Haha good point. They commonly do that with me too. 5 Move to that House... NO NOT THAT SIDE!!! *Sound of 20 AKs firing*

[Bouben 3]

I'm fairly sure that squad tactics are that Team A covers Team B while Team B moves up to the next position. Then when Team A moves Team B covers. Not Both teams go running off by themselves. Fire teams are meant to cover one another. I also could've sworn that they still do do overwatch if you tell them to move as a team but I could be wrong.

Allright then imagine that I am moving with a team A and a team B is moving alone on the other flank while a team C is covering everybody. I simply need the team B be able to take care for themselves.

But I understand the issues connected with bounding overwatch (crossing a street and so on). I think it would be good to have two MOVE orders then. One for quick movement and one with bounding overwatch.

How would you solve the problem that your AI mates are now ignoring enemies while moving? This way I can't send them anywhere alone even in teams of 10 soldiers because no one will shoot (very often). Thanks for tips.

Edit: and wouldn't be enough to disable bounding overwatch only when told to move while in aware mode and not in stealth or danger mode? This way a player would decide when to use it and when not. I would like this solution, really.

[jakerod 254]

Edit: and wouldn't be enough to disable bounding overwatch only when told to move while in aware mode and not in stealth or danger mode? This way a player would decide when to use it and when not. I would like this solution, really.

The problem with that is that they automatically go to danger when they detect an enemy / take fire. So if I was trying to have them run across the street and they knew there was an enemy nearby they would do overwatch. Same as if they were trying to retreat. It is good that they automatically go to danger because I figure that might save their life in the event I can't react quick enough. So a lot of it is a debate about what they should and shouldn't do automatically and there are a lot of good cases for both sides of the argument (like your case is a good example of why they should). I do think that the way it is now is better though. I feel like when my AI die now they generally die because I was stupid instead of doing something because they were stupid which is far worse in my opinion because I don't have the ability to change the AI only my tactics.

[Bouben 3]

The problem with that is that they automatically go to danger when they detect an enemy / take fire.

Well, what I have observed recently was not what you are saying. They simply continued moving without any reaction after spotting an enemy soldier when ordered to move somewhere. And I am talking about aware, combat and stealth modes. None of the modes has any effect on that. They simply move and move and shoot only when reached their destination.

They will go to danger mode automatically only if in formation with you. While ordered to move, they ignore it completely and dont go to danger mode at all even in combat or stealth mode.

I hope we are both talking about the same thing.

[jakerod 254]

Well, what I have observed recently was not what you are saying. They simply continued moving without any reaction after spotting an enemy soldier when ordered to move somewhere. And I am talking about aware, combat and stealth modes. None of the modes has any effect on that. They simply move and move and shoot only when reached their destination.

They will go to danger mode automatically only if in formation with you. While ordered to move, they ignore it completely and dont go to danger mode at all even in combat or stealth mode.

I hope we are both talking about the same thing.

I'm not sure about this but I think that they go to Danger Mode while moving but the moving overrides the Danger Mode behavior (as it is supposed to (I think)). Once they reach the destination then I think the danger mode will take back over and they will start reacting to threats.

[John1000 10]

Allright then imagine that I am moving with a team A and a team B is moving alone on the other flank while a team C is covering everybody. I simply need the team B be able to take care for themselves.

But I understand the issues connected with bounding overwatch (crossing a street and so on). I think it would be good to have two MOVE orders then. One for quick movement and one with bounding overwatch.

How would you solve the problem that your AI mates are now ignoring enemies while moving? This way I can't send them anywhere alone even in teams of 10 soldiers because no one will shoot (very often). Thanks for tips.

Edit: and wouldn't be enough to disable bounding overwatch only when told to move while in aware mode and not in stealth or danger mode? This way a player would decide when to use it and when not. I would like this solution, really.

Maybe it`s posseble to do a workaurond of the problem by making a Timer that wil execute a Move

To order ;Move to Pos_One then to Pos_2 add on?

Move here ,wait for 20 sec;then move here (Pos 2).Moving in teams and covering.That might work-

Just adding a Wait at___this position=True with mouse wheel might solve it

[Bouben 3]

Well I am getting used to the new behaviour and I really got my team more under control than before, but I would really appreciate a special bounding overwatch command especially in urban areas when I need them to go as carefully as possible. A special command for this would be a blessing and I would have no other prompts. That would solve many situations.

Right now when I send a squad to do a search in urban areas they absolutely ignore enemies they encounter. I cannot make them engage them without targeting them first and giving them engage command. Often a whole squad is killed by one enemy because everybody is moving and ignoring the enemy. That sucks a lot.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Bouben

[jakerod 254]

Well I am getting used to the new behaviour and I really got my team more under control than before, but I would really appreciate a special bounding overwatch command especially in urban areas when I need them to go as carefully as possible. A special command for this would be a blessing and I would have no other prompts. That would solve many situations.

I never let my men act on their own in an urban environment. The most independence my men ever get in urban combat is return to formation in which they follow me around in a compact column. Other than that everyone gets their own independent move order, stance, and direction to watch. Not saying that this is the best way. Just wanted to point out my tactics with the way the system presently is so that it might help you or someone else adapt to the newer system.

[Bouben 3]

I never let my men act on their own in an urban environment. The most independence my men ever get in urban combat is return to formation in which they follow me around in a compact column. Other than that everyone gets their own independent move order, stance, and direction to watch. Not saying that this is the best way. Just wanted to point out my tactics with the way the system presently is so that it might help you or someone else adapt to the newer system.

I perfectly understand your point but sometimes I would really like to send my men somewhere without me.

I mean one bounding overwatch command would solve it all because apart from this problem I have an amazing experience with new betapatches. The game really is responsive and squads are moving great while engaging. Just that dedicated overwatch command is missing. That way I would decide if I need them to go as fast as possible or if I need them to search every corner. My experience is that bounding overwatch often saved an individual's life because it gave him time to react.

[jakerod 254]

I wouldn't mind having the command either but I feel like it is unlikely to happen. Prove me wrong BI!

[becubed 24]

Could you work around this by having the separate team as another group and using High Command?

If I remember correctly there was a mod that let you move teams in and out of your group to allow something like this.

Scott