Razor Two - major bug?

[Stray Bullet 10]

I just started a new game of Arma 2 and had JUST begun the Razor Two mission.

You know, after Miles dies and Shaftoe sends us to Dressler and all that good stuff?

Anyway, the next task after talking to Dressler is to capture Bardak. There is a WHOLE LOT of other stuff to do in that mission too.

So anyway, I was just driving around when suddenly I see a car coming at me and when I got close enough I got the message that I succeeded at capturing Bardak. I went up to his car, which by that point was pinned against my Humvee and couldn't move. he had nothing to say, and wouldn't get out, so I just shot him.

After that I get the message that it would have been preferable to take him alive, but I guess c'est la vie. ;)

So then, that's it - mission ended, and it went straight to "One Week Later".

Now, I guess it was just freak chance that I accidentally happened upon Bardak so quickly, but IMO, that ruined the entire Razor two mission for me. I hadn't even had a chance to talk to anyone, hadn't gathered any clues, hadn't done *anything* but begin my journey.

If that's not a bug, IMO, it's a poor design choice. Bardak shouldn't even spawn anywhere before the player does some other things. The task to capture Bardak shouldn't even be available to the player since doing so causes the entire level to become finished, and can literally happen at any time, even before the player has had a chance to do anything else at all.

[metalcraze 290]

Actually that's by design. And that's what makes BIS games special.

There's no such thing as "spawn"

Everything is fair. He gets into his car, he starts driving around the area, visiting locations/giving orders to his goons. You were lucky/"lucky" enough to encounter Bardak so early.

Nobody stops you from replaying the mission in any other way though.

Hint: you wouldn't have had the time to do half of the stuff in the mission regardless

Edited July 1, 2011 by metalcraze

[Stray Bullet 10]

Actually that's by design. And that's what makes BIS games special.

There's no such thing as "spawn"

Everything is fair. He gets into his car, he starts driving around the area, visiting locations/giving orders to his goons. You were lucky/"lucky" enough to encounter Bardak so early.

Nobody stops you from replaying the mission in any other way though.

Hint: you wouldn't have had the time to do half of the stuff in the mission regardless

Well if you're saying that's not a bug, then that's fine and I believe you.

Nevertheless, it still seems to me to be bad planning to have that mission available right away. I would think that they could make it come into focus after getting more information.

No, I know that nobody is going to force me to do it that way, and I've played through all of Arma 2 once already. I'm thinking though, a noob would say to himself "wth was that all about?" A five minute mission and I never even fired a shot?

See what I mean?

And yeah, you have plenty of time. Lopotev is almost certain to get away (so I've read), but you could drive around for hours before finding Bardak. But chancing upon him right away like that just completely removes all other options no matter what and you miss out on a lot.

It IS still a game, after all, and should be fun and not have anything that can cause you to miss huge chunks of it like that. A noob might think that's all there was to that mission, and never even get the time to enjoy it.

Which brings me to my next point - the way the saves work in Arma, you can't simply revert to a save from right before that. The mission ends, the next mission begins, and the only way to get back is to go through the beginning of the mission again and start completely over.

Don't get me wrong -I love Arma 2 (and Arma 1, plus I have Combined Operations) - but there just are things I'd have done differently. ;)

At any rate, I tried to replicate that scenario by using the same route as before and it didn't happen the second time. It was just northeast of Pusta where it happened, btw.

[Hanzu 10]

So anyway, I was just driving around when suddenly I see a car coming at me and when I got close enough I got the message that I succeeded at capturing Bardak. I went up to his car, which by that point was pinned against my Humvee and couldn't move. he had nothing to say, and wouldn't get out, so I just shot him.

After that I get the message that it would have been preferable to take him alive, but I guess c'est la vie. ;)

Arma2 characters do not talk when they are inside vehicles. You should have reversed your vehicle and let him drive and follow his car. In some of the places he visits he will get out of car for some minutes for example in Solnichy Quarry. There you can shoot 3 enemies in quarry and shoot tires of Bardak's car and then go to trigger Bardak to talk, but not run after him when he starts to run. By doing this you will remove time limit from the mission because Bardak will not try to escape north anymore, not even by walking or running. He will just search closest open structure or building where he will hide inside forever and now you can go and do that other stuff like collecting 3 evidences before going near Bardak again and capturing him to get all 4 evidences.

If that's not a bug, IMO, it's a poor design choice. Bardak shouldn't even spawn anywhere before the player does some other things. The task to capture Bardak shouldn't even be available to the player since doing so causes the entire level to become finished, and can literally happen at any time, even before the player has had a chance to do anything else at all.

No it is not a bug. It may be poor design for us that want to collect all evidence and complete every objective possible, but it is also a challenge for your mind and strategy.

Actually that's by design. And that's what makes BIS games special.

There's no such thing as "spawn"

Everything is fair. He gets into his car, he starts driving around the area, visiting locations/giving orders to his goons. You were lucky/"lucky" enough to encounter Bardak so early.

Nobody stops you from replaying the mission in any other way though.

Yes there is such thing as spawn. For example in Manhattan mission when Dr. Sova gets lynched. His hanged corpse will just appear on a tree and at same second CDF military police will just spawn to investigate this. I even cut that tree down with APC and parked vehicles to place where CDF military police UAZ spawns, but you know what that UAZ spawned inside and over my vehicles. Dr. Sova cropse spawned partly inside my APC and hanging rope was hanging from the sky. If that is not spawn what is it?

Hint: you wouldn't have had the time to do half of the stuff in the mission regardless

There is no timelimit after you talk to Bardak but do not go after him. I played this mission for hours and hours and then went to touch Bardak to end mission.

Well if you're saying that's not a bug, then that's fine and I believe you.

Nevertheless, it still seems to me to be bad planning to have that mission available right away. I would think that they could make it come into focus after getting more information.

Buddy your terms are confusing me... :)

You say level and you mean mission

you say mission and you mean objective/task

No, I know that nobody is going to force me to do it that way, and I've played through all of Arma 2 once already. I'm thinking though, a noob would say to himself "wth was that all about?" A five minute mission and I never even fired a shot?

See what I mean?

Yea I know what you mean there are bunch of posts from 2009 from those noobs that ran into Bardak early, but developer Yezuro said in one post about this not all evidence is required for best possible campaign ending so that is why the made it this way. The first time I completed Harvest Red campaign I missed atleast 5 pieces of evidences. The next time I got 100% of evidence and same ending and flawless victory.

When you see red VW Golf IV look-alike or redblue old Skoda driving that is Bardak. Just move off the road and let him go or follow him from distance to get timelimit stopped.

And yeah, you have plenty of time. Lopotev is almost certain to get away (so I've read), but you could drive around for hours before finding Bardak. But chancing upon him right away like that just completely removes all other options no matter what and you miss out on a lot.

It IS still a game, after all, and should be fun and not have anything that can cause you to miss huge chunks of it like that. A noob might think that's all there was to that mission, and never even get the time to enjoy it.

You seem to have sources where you read but seem to miss reading newer posts about same things. :)

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=118793

Which brings me to my next point - the way the saves work in Arma, you can't simply revert to a save from right before that. The mission ends, the next mission begins, and the only way to get back is to go through the beginning of the mission again and start completely over.

Best tip I can give is to ALT+TAB and copy your campaign folder every 30mins. If mission ends early or other things go wrong like corrupted savegame. Than you just delete campaign folder and move the copy to this place.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Hanzu

[Stray Bullet 10]

Arma2 characters do not talk when they are inside vehicles. You should have reversed your vehicle and let him drive and follow his car. In some of the places he visits he will get out of car for some minutes for example in Solnichy Quarry. There you can shoot 3 enemies in quarry and shoot tires of Bardak's car and then go to trigger Bardak to talk, but not run after him when he starts to run. By doing this you will remove time limit from the mission because Bardak will not try to escape north anymore, not even by walking or running. He will just search closest open structure or building where he will hide inside forever and now you can go and do that other stuff like collecting 3 evidences before going near Bardak again and capturing him to get all 4 evidences.

Okay, thank you. :)

See, I thought it was already over, since the on-screen message said I had already achieved his capture. I thought it was just a bug that he didn't say anything and nothing else happened after that. If that happens again, I'll just let him go.

Best tip I can give is to ALT+TAB and copy your campaign folder every 30mins. If mission ends early or other things go wrong like corrupted savegame. Than you just delete campaign folder and move the copy to this place.

I never would have thought to do that, but that's a great idea! Thanks. :)

[metalcraze 290]

Yes there is such thing as spawn. For example in Manhattan mission when Dr. Sova gets lynched. His hanged corpse will just appear on a tree and at same second CDF military police will just spawn to investigate this. I even cut that tree down with APC and parked vehicles to place where CDF military police UAZ spawns, but you know what that UAZ spawned inside and over my vehicles. Dr. Sova cropse spawned partly inside my APC and hanging rope was hanging from the sky. If that is not spawn what is it?

That's not what I've meant. Dr. Sova is just a plot device there, Bardak is like the most important bit of gameplay in that mission involving him.

There is no timelimit after you talk to Bardak but do not go after him. I played this mission for hours and hours and then went to touch Bardak to end mission.

Doesn't he try to escape and you get that message some time into a mission and can miss him?

[Stray Bullet 10]

Doesn't he try to escape and you get that message some time into a mission and can miss him?

I don't know about Bardak, but you get a message that Lopotev is suddenly on the move. Swordsman tells you that you may have roughly 20 minutes to capture him before he escapes to the Russian border, but very shortly after that the mission will automatically end with the message that Lopotev escaped.

Lopotev is the main target, of course.

It also seems to depend where you are on the map at the time, whether he gets away quickly or not. I have no idea how that works, really, but the first time I played, I was on the razor Two mission for a pretty good while.

But this time, after restarting last night, even with avoiding Bardak, it still was maybe an hour of Arma time before Lopotev escaped and the mission ended. I spent most of that time fighting in Stary Sobor, just trying to stay alive, pinned down and surrounded by bad guys while I was trying to make my way towards a tank I wanted to take out.

[Hanzu 10]

That's not what I've meant. Dr. Sova is just a plot device there, Bardak is like the most important bit of gameplay in that mission involving him.

Actually yes you are right there is no spawn in Razor Two mission and in Manhattan mission Dr. Sova's fate cannot be changed and he is not important, but the fact there is characters that do not exits when mission starts and will spawn later a fact. I meant those CDF military police officers really how they make their first appearance.

Doesn't he try to escape and you get that message some time into a mission and can miss him?

Yes and no. He will try to escape from you, but not from Chernarus anymore so there is no timelimit. Think it this way. Bardak has no idea where Razor Team is after he has run away from there, so to avoid capture he stays inside closest open structure gas station, barn or whatever. So you cannot see him from helicopter either. Also if he would try to border without car, he could be shot by NAPA men patrolling with hunting rifles. So it's actually quite realistic that he tries to hide to avoid capture. Bardak does not use other vehicles. So once he loses his own there is no danger that he would board other vehicles found around.

Example of the process:

Approaching Bardak at Solnichy Quarry resulting TASK ACCOMPLISHED: Find/capture Bardak.

Letting him run away and going to collect evidence on the other side of the map. He actually ran to south of Solnichy after above screenshot to get to the other side of that fence I guess.

Multiple minutes later I got everyting ready and started to re-find Bardak from where I last saw him. Found him standing in gas station north of Solnichy so he ran about 1 km away from Quarry. In the screenshot you see he has not yet noticed me approaching. Notice the golden AKS :)

Running after Bardak to trigger more dialog and his automatic surrender.

After some dialog and Razor Team automatically wounding Bardak and making him roll in the ground resulting TASK ACCOMPLISHED: Find Evidence. See also top right corner Evidence gathered: 4/4

After that mission ends to Flawless Victory meaning there is nothing that could have been done better. Lopotev is just a red herring and he is not physically in map. So he cannot be captured or killed.

Objective/task Find & capture Loptev will stay grey status.

I don't know about Bardak, but you get a message that Lopotev is suddenly on the move. Swordsman tells you that you may have roughly 20 minutes to capture him before he escapes to the Russian border, but very shortly after that the mission will automatically end with the message that Lopotev escaped.

Lopotev is the main target, of course.

It also seems to depend where you are on the map at the time, whether he gets away quickly or not. I have no idea how that works, really, but the first time I played, I was on the razor Two mission for a pretty good while.

There will not be that message about Lopotev once you manage to get TASK ACCOMPLISHED: Find/capture Bardak

That message actually has nothing to do with Lopotev it happens when Bardak in car is passing some point south of Gorka from where he usually gets to russian border in 5-20 minutes depending on his driving skills and other traffic.

Even after that he can crash into a tree and just sit there inside his car forever. So when message about Lopotev comes it is not an automatic mission end counter, it is just a warning about Bardak's moving to border.

But this time, after restarting last night, even with avoiding Bardak, it still was maybe an hour of Arma time before Lopotev escaped and the mission ended. I spent most of that time fighting in Stary Sobor, just trying to stay alive, pinned down and surrounded by bad guys while I was trying to make my way towards a tank I wanted to take out.

Yes there is Shilka in Novy Sobor and T-72 in Stary Sobor. If you really want to fight them use UAV's missiles or take RPG's from Lesnoy Kheber enemy tent camp and shoot them amazingly from about 900m away. Once you hit even close crew will jump out. Also at GPS COORS 103098 you can sometimes see friendly AV7 where you can jump in, but it is a slow mover in this big mission.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Hanzu

[metalcraze 290]

I clearly remember I was intercepting Bardak near one of the northern villages when he was running for it (that's was the mission right after the one with Lopotev's escape).

He was driving a red car I think

[Hanzu 10]

I clearly remember I was intercepting Bardak near one of the northern villages when he was running for it´

Could you share a little more please. I didn't get what is this "it" Bardak was running for?

In all cases he will start to run when you approach him. That does not mean he is still trying to get to border. I think his scripted path will cancel once he loses his original vehicle. Ofcourse if someone will proves otherwise, I'm happy to hear about it.

(that's was the mission right after the one with Lopotev's escape).

He was driving a red car I think

Hmm... Lopotev's escape (which we cannot affect) happens only in radiomessage in Razor Two mission and next mission is One Week Later. I have hard time to believe Bardak or any enemies are present in that little mission.

Yes he drives either that red car or redblue car. There is one character you can talk to in mission start to know which one he uses.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Well, I've had this once before as well, so I guess I deserved going in the same trap twice. What happened was that upon searching a place, that Bardak guy stole our HMMWV and left for safety. And every time I'm like "no way that just happened" :D I did reload though before the mission ended.

[2nd ranger 282]

When I found Bardak in the quarry, the capture task completed but he ran away and I lost him in the woods.

I thought maybe he had run into the nearby town, so I left the RT members in the town while I as Cooper took the chopper back to base to use the UAV. There were loads of people in the town and I couldn't tell who was who on thermal, so I switched to Sykes and ran around the place, shooting every civilian in the knees to make them go prone, then switching back to the UAV so I knew if I had searched everywhere in the town for Bardak. He wasn't there.

So on a long shot, I just started flying the UAV around until eventually I got an enemy icon on the HUD, in a town about 1km away. I flew down there and sure enough, Bardak was just standing in the road next to a car, not reacting to my presence at all. No surrender, nothing. So I got angry and killed him for being buggy. Then of course the mission completed anyway and I was happy. :)

[Hanzu 10]

Well, I've had this once before as well, so I guess I deserved going in the same trap twice. What happened was that upon searching a place, that Bardak guy stole our HMMWV and left for safety. And every time I'm like "no way that just happened" :D I did reload though before the mission ended.

Outrageous! ;) Bardak surely can surprise and BIS should have implemented driver beeing able to lock car with keys. Anyway there goes my theory of him only using his own vehicles, but maybe it only happens if another vehicle is close enough for his "go back to the vehicle and drive away path".

When I found Bardak in the quarry, the capture task completed but he ran away and I lost him in the woods.

I thought maybe he had run into the nearby town, so I left the RT members in the town while I as Cooper took the chopper back to base to use the UAV. There were loads of people in the town and I couldn't tell who was who on thermal, so I switched to Sykes and ran around the place, shooting every civilian in the knees to make them go prone, then switching back to the UAV so I knew if I had searched everywhere in the town for Bardak. He wasn't there.

So on a long shot, I just started flying the UAV around until eventually I got an enemy icon on the HUD, in a town about 1km away. I flew down there and sure enough, Bardak was just standing in the road next to a car, not reacting to my presence at all. No surrender, nothing. So I got angry and killed him for being buggy. Then of course the mission completed anyway and I was happy. :)

Another amazing Bardak experience! I also used UAV to find him and noticed Solnichy really has too many civilians. Finally when when I was about to give up and called Star Force 21 to pick me up to do air searching. I saw him under gas station roof. In map his icon was hidden because of very same roof.

2nd Ranger was this Bardak not surrendering bug with some old patch? So we could assume that is not going to happen again, if not, maybe there was a driver in that car who hit Bardak and made him to go into shock thus resulting him not to talk. ;)

[2nd ranger 282]

Yeah that was some time ago, probably 1.55 or earlier.