Mythbusters ArmA edition.

[Guest]

Please take note that this video is dated, what, 1 week after release? And yet the AI still do none of the "hacking" you seem to believe:

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Thats not what Bouben is saying.

He says that once you are spotted and identified, the effect of the grass will no longer work on you. In that video he isnt spotted/identified and tries to hide in grass afterwards.

The effect of a ghillie suit can easily be read from the 'camouflage' setting in the config and isnt really related to this.

But this is what I don't understand. If you stand up and reveal yourself, you can't just lay back down and disappear!!!

If I saw some idiot stand up and then lay down again, I wouldn't just be like:

"OH NOEZ, WHERE DID HE GO???"

Look at the video I posted, when Sincover teleports, the AI has no idea where he is. All they have is his last known position.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Please take note that this video is dated, what, 1 week after release? And yet the AI still do none of the "hacking" you seem to believe:

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Thats not the same as he isnt really hiding in the grass. He is either hiding by pure distance or the terrain itself. Which both work as you say, objects do this as well. Grass however doesnt.

But this is what I don't understand. If you stand up and reveal yourself, you can't just lay back down and disappear!!!

Well i said before that i never thought that it was a big problem(I said the opposite on the previous page), however its also a bit odd that the AI doesnt have any spotting penalty once im identified.

Wether you think its a problem or not doesnt make it less true. :p

EDIT: Ill upload my own testmission

Edited July 26, 2010 by NeMeSiS

[Guest]

Thats not the same as he isnt really hiding in the grass. He is either hiding by pure distance or the terrain itself. Which both work as you say, objects do this as well. Grass however doesnt.

But it does... :/

I will make a video to prove it because this is just silly. I believe several members of staff have confirmed this, including Maruk.

I'll post a video shortly if I get some time.

---------- Post added at 17:36 ---------- Previous post was at 17:22 ----------

Ok, I haven't got time to make a video right now, but here is a test I just did:

Please take note, Arma 2 does not simulate ANY kind of advanced camouflage, like digging trenches and covering yourself in nature, specialized sniper cover, etc. You are just a plain dude in a ghillie suit.

Tests done with AI at 1.0, (which is above realistic to start with).

If I lay prone in front of an AI squad, they would walk towards me. Once they reached about 30 or so metres, they would spot me, and open fire.

(In real life, in that situation, there is NO WAY I would not have been spotted. This isn't cod, you can't just lay in grass and vanish. You still exist to the human eye at close ranges.

If I layed prone behind them, they never noticed me at all.

Obviously once you stay at ranges 50m+, the AI generally will not spot you if you are prone and ghillied up. (Which is realistic in this scenario).

At 1.0 something I did notice, is that the AI hearing is a little too sharp.

I think this validates my point very well.

The AI are not call of duty/retarded. You can't just lay down and pretend you don't exist. A good way to approach Arma 2 AI is this:

If the AI were humans online, would they see you laying in the grass 20m away? The answer is yes. Especially if you start moving.

Keep yourself out of stupid situations and you won't die.

Not trying to be hostile, but I think this "problem" is down to the player, not the AI.

[NeMeSiS 11]

But it does... :/

I will make a video to prove it because this is just silly. I believe several members of staff have confirmed this, including Maruk.

I'll post a video shortly if I get some time.

---------- Post added at 17:36 ---------- Previous post was at 17:22 ----------

Ok, I haven't got time to make a video right now, but here is a test I just did:

Please take note, Arma 2 does not simulate ANY kind of advanced camouflage, like digging trenches and covering yourself in nature, specialized sniper cover, etc. You are just a plain dude in a ghillie suit.

Tests done with AI at 1.0, (which is above realistic to start with).

If I lay prone in front of an AI squad, they would walk towards me. Once they reached about 30 or so metres, they would spot me, and open fire.

(In real life, in that situation, there is NO WAY I would not have been spotted. This isn't cod, you can't just lay in grass and vanish. You still exist to the human eye at close ranges.

If I layed prone behind them, they never noticed me at all.

Obviously once you stay at ranges 50m+, the AI generally will not spot you if you are prone and ghillied up. (Which is realistic in this scenario).

At 1.0 something I did notice, is that the AI hearing is a little too sharp.

I think this validates my point very well.

The AI are not call of duty/retarded. You can't just lay down and pretend you don't exist. A good way to approach Arma 2 AI is this:

If the AI were humans online, would they see you laying in the grass 20m away? The answer is yes. Especially if you start moving.

Keep yourself out of stupid situations and you won't die.

Not trying to be hostile, but I think this "problem" is down to the player, not the AI.

http://www.easy-share.com/1911465699/test.Chernarus.rar

This should prove my point. It being: Grass hides you very well as long as you are not spotted yet. When you are spotted however, the AI acts like the grass isnt there at all. Even if you teleport to another location.

Replication instructions are given in the mission itself.

This differs from the above video in that i am still well within engagement and spotting ranges, and grass is the only thing that can hide me. And it does hide me as long as i'm not known before i try to hide in it.

Also: I am not saying that this is somehow wrong, i am only saying that this is the case and personally i do think it can be improved. If you were always able to hide so well in grass it would be very wrong, but i never said i want that.

EDIT: Updated the mission

Edited July 26, 2010 by NeMeSiS

[Guest]

Fair enough mate. I can't test your mission right now, but may I ask what range you were from the enemy?

I think anything less than 30-40m and they swill spot you, even if you are undetected. (Unless you are behind them, in which case you can be very close. But if you start crawling they have uber hearing and will spot you)

I definitely agree they have too good hearing, for sure. From my own experience though, once you break contact, they lose your position.

Maybe it varies PC to PC, I don't know lol. :/

[NeMeSiS 11]

Fair enough mate. I can't test your mission right now, but may I ask what range you were from the enemy?

I think anything less than 30-40m and they swill spot you, even if you are undetected. (Unless you are behind them, in which case you can be very close. But if you start crawling they have uber hearing and will spot you)

I definitely agree they have too good hearing, for sure. From my own experience though, once you break contact, they lose your position.

Maybe it varies PC to PC, I don't know lol. :/

About 100m. In the mission there are instructions to teleport yourself about 100m in front of them while lying down before shooting so you can check you are indeed hidden from the AI sight before they know of your existance, doublechecked by constant knowsabout updates from the enemy.

[Guest]

Quick question, when you teleported, did you teleport whilst always remaining prone, even when you arrived?

Because if the teleport lands you standing up, and then you instantly make yourself go prone, the AI will still have a quick second to see you, which would ruin the whole scenario.

However, if you are always remaining prone without ever standing up for a fraction, obviously I take your word. :)

[walker 0]

http://www.easy-share.com/1911465070/test.Chernarus.rar

This should prove my point. It being: Grass hides you very well as long as you are not spotted yet. When you are spotted however, the AI acts like the grass isnt there at all. Even if you teleport to another location.

Replication instructions are given in the mission itself.

This differs from the above video in that i am still well within engagement and spotting ranges, and grass is the only thing that can hide me. And it does hide me as long as i'm not known before i try to hide in it.

Also: I am not saying that this is somehow wrong, i am only saying that this is the case and personally i do think it can be improved. If you were always able to hide so well in grass it would be very wrong, but i never said i want that.

Hi

I just ran your test mission depite not moving AI knows about me as soon as I teleport even if I have not shot.

IMHO the mission as it stands teleports the player way too close to the AI, they would have to be blind as bats not to see you. I will alter experiment to get to a distance at which the AI are unaware of me. From experinece this is greater than 100m.

I will also edit it and provide a second team member in a static weapon and out of view so as to provide the player with the command interface in order to view the enemy.

Kind Regards walker

[NeMeSiS 11]

Yes you stay proned when setpossing. ;)

(And i almost burned my grilled ham/cheese sandwich while checking this. I hope you are happy! :D )

EDIT: Walker, i reuploaded the demomission seconds ago with more reliable positions. I hoped that noone had downloaded it yet but there you go... New mission is in the old post.

[walker 0]

Hi NeMeSiS

I had layed down prone before I teleported as per your instructions in all cases, it may be because I have AI skill set differently to you.

Anyway I have edited your mission as per my suggestions. I also got rid of the dead civilian body as it may be giving away position with its low camouflage config value and even when dead comes up as unknown to enemy, instead I used a same named Location Logic; the correct entity to use in such a case.

http://www.downloads.thechainofcommand.net/zips/AI_See_You_in_Grass_Mythbusted.Chernarus.zip

I did several tests.

Sometimes teleporting straight away, sometimes firing on the enemy and instantly teleporting, sometimes waiting until the knowsAbout value rose higher.

Some observations to note:

1) AI knowsAbout values of less than 4, when at the original location, BUT more than about 1.5 and the AI will search for you sending out teams of two in various directions until the value rises to 4.

The directions these search teams move seems to depend on how much they knowsAbout you, if the knowsAbout value is high they move more towards you in your original position, if they are lower then they search in a circular or spiral fashion until they spot you.

2) If you can hold at the original position until knows about reaches 4, without getting killed (tough I know), and then teleport they will only search in the original location! In other words it seems that knowsAbout is linked to your last known position not your actual position.

I was even able to crawl into the barn with the knows about value constantly at 4 yet they never came to me! They were looking for me in the wrong place, my original position.

IMHO these are the correct actions to simulate in both cases described.

I also suggest you test moving the teleport in and behind the barn and closer and further from the AI as well as behind various objects such as hy bales and bushes.

You may wish to test various other locations and terrain types using the upgraded mission.

Overall I say the AI does not see through Grass or have X-ray eyes or Radar tracking.

Mythbusted!

Kind Regards walker

Edited July 26, 2010 by walker

[Guest]

I think walker is spot on ^^

[Bouben 3]

Hey, Richie - please, read this carefully.

In reality: if you stand up from tall grass and fire on an enemy, he will naturally spot you and return fire and remember your position. But then (imagine, you are 500 meters away) you lay down back in grass. So now you are not seen, but the enemy still knows your last position and continues firing at your position - fair enough. But you decide to crawl away (hidden in grass and not seen) to the left so the enemy must decide where to aim his blind fire to grass around you somewhere in the last spotted area, because he naturally doesn't know in which direction you've decided to go. And imagine, that he've decided to fire mostly to the right so he does not hit you. So you are still alive and crawling to the left, because he's still 500m from you and moreover - firing blindly in a wrong direction. After some 200m of crawling in tall grass you've reached - unseen - some hole and hidden there...and so on.

Well, do you finally understand my point? This situation is absolutely impossible in the game because you would not be able to confuse enemy in such a way because once contact is started, enemy will literally ignore grass at all and see every change in your direction even if you are crawling 500m away. So he will not be confused and will not have to decide in which direction put his blind fire. He will simply pinpoint (!) you, because now he see through grass untill knowsAbout reaches 0. That's it.

Please, tell me, that you finally understand, what I mean. I have a suspicion for terrible misunderstanding because I've never said, that I should vanish in grass after I lay down again and enemy should forget.

Thanks, and have a good time.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Bouben

[madrussian 347]

I wasn't aware that there even were bush entries in vanilla (i.e didn't think there were), and thus I was using map_eu to get at them. I'll try and find the equivalent of that map_eu bush and see if it's in there. It may be that map_eu is the only way to place that particular bush...

Like said before, i do not have map_eu so i tested with a number of random objects i do have, as well as a number of different bushes which were already placed on the map. In your old topic i made another demo mission to show this, it also had an easy way to reveal the knowsabout of the enemy soldier behind the bush, which stayed at 0 with every object i tried.

(Otherwise one of the objects would have been bugged, and we could high-five eachother that we found an annoying bug and it could have been fixed by now. :p )

Im not saying you are lying or something, but i do not know which objects map_eu enables and maybe you are using objects which you are not supposed to use and therefore it wouldnt really be relevant if those bushed dont work properly.

OK, I fired up ArmA 2 in vanilla with no mods running and there is NO vegetation that I can find in the editor... which is after all, why Mapfact created MAP_EU in the first place: so we could place our own vegetation! :p

The AI-View-blocking issue is most easily apparent when a massive amount of vegetation is present... as in enough to completely block out every pixel of the player's view to the other side. This is what I have created in my test mission.

As mentioned before, the only thing MAP_EU does is to allow access to objects that appear on the map, but that we have no access to place normally in the editor. For example, all the vegetation in the game!!! Yes, to adequately test AI-View-blocking, we really do need MAP_EU... (or know Visitor) in order to erect a mass-vegetation barrier.

Here's the config for that burley bush within MAP_EU:

class MAP_b_salix2s : MAP_Plants_DTe {
scope = 2;
displayName = "B b_salix2s";
icon = "\MAP_EU\icon\PB.paa";
model = "\ca\plants2\bush\b_salix2s.p3d";
};

class MAP_Plants_DTe : MAP_Plants_Base {
destrType = "DestructTent";
accuracy = 1000;
};

class MAP_Plants_Base : Static {
displayName = "";
accuracy = 0.1;
vehicleClass = "MAP_EUPlants";
model = "";
nameSound = "";
animated = 0;
simulation = "house";
cost = 0;
armor = 300;
ladders[] = {};
placement = "slope";
};

Nothing terribly fancy going on in there, eh? Mainly just the model and icon.

So anyhow, in a vain attempt to appease you vanilla purists :p, I spent some time trying to figure out a way to create these plant types without MAP_EU, but so far no dice. Anyone know a proven method to create ArmA2 vegetation on the fly in vanilla without an accessor mod like MAP_EU? I would simply create them using createVehicle, but when I try a typeOf on desired in-game vegetation objects, I get back "#mark" for all vegetation objects types I checked.

In the mean time, why not spend a few seconds and get MAP_EU here, fire up my test mission, and at least see exactly what I'm on to here? :D

Good day. :)

[NeMeSiS 11]

2) If you can hold at the original position until knows about reaches 4, without getting killed (tough I know), and then teleport they will only search in the original location! In other words it seems that knowsAbout is linked to your last known position not your actual position.

I dont know what you just tried to say, but all knowsabout gives you is a value of how much a unit knows about the side of another unit. It has nothing to do with positions whatsoever. (See this post by Suma)

http://www.easy-share.com/1911470052/test.Chernarus.rar

I updated the mission to show how much distance there is between your real position and the percieved position the AI thinks you are. It takes a couple of seconds to update though, but just before you die you should usually see that its <1 meter even though you teleported a away with only grass as cover.

Whereas you will get an error if you dont shoot and teleport because you are not known.

You can also teleport to a completely different position where the AI cannot see you(Behind the barn for example), and then you will see that the perceived position is off by several hundred meters.

@MadRussian, why dont you just use the objects already placed on the map? If its the same model it should give the same results and it doesnt matter if you hide behind 1 or 1000. Thats what i did and i couldnt reproduce.

Though ill look at your mission tomorrow anyway, but i already believed you were shot trough those bushes. ;)

Edited July 27, 2010 by NeMeSiS

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Again and again - AI LOS is not blocked by grass after they've ONCE spotted you - X-RAY vision takes place. That's it. This is nothing about AI intelligence. This is simple cheating and makeshift workaround.

It's not "X-ray vision", it's simply prediction. Based on your last known position and velocity, they predict where you are going to be. It's not always accurate, but if you don't change directions after running behind concealment they're going to be waiting for you. For example, if you look at the map (in cadet mode) when an enemy runs out of sight, you can still see his marker moving. Then when he enters your (or one of your groupmates') line of sight again you will see his marker jump to his actual position. AI works the same way.

[NeMeSiS 11]

It's not "X-ray vision", it's simply prediction. Based on your last known position and velocity, they predict where you are going to be. It's not always accurate, but if you don't change directions after running behind concealment they're going to be waiting for you. For example, if you look at the map (in cadet mode) when an enemy runs out of sight, you can still see his marker moving. Then when he enters your (or one of your groupmates') line of sight again you will see his marker jump to his actual position. AI works the same way.

Try the above mission. Can they also predict your teleporting? :p

[MavericK96 0]

http://www.easy-share.com/1911470052/test.Chernarus.rar

No personal offense intended, but EasyShare really, really sucks. It wants me to wait like 15 minutes to download that file.

Maybe try Rapidshare instead?

[Guest]

Rapidhare...omfg!

Why not megaupload or mediafire?

:)

[madrussian 347]

@MadRussian, why dont you just use the objects already placed on the map? If its the same model it should give the same results and it doesnt matter if you hide behind 1 or 1000. Thats what i did and i couldnt reproduce.

Very good question!

The reason I prefer to test AI-View-Blocking with a sea of bushes is that when I place various individual bushes in the editor to examine them, I (as the human player), can always see through the vegetation to the other side, to varying degrees based on the vegetation object. Seems to me that if I might be able to see AI on the other side (even only a few pixels), then it's really not a 100% complete test.

Now, I know that AI-View-Blocking is actually suppose to be based on view-lods. (Allegedly, along with other factors like surface, which may be at the heart of the problem.) But if I place a ton of these bushes in a very dense area, and still get detected and shot... well then imo it presents a much stronger case that there's a real underlying issue.

Unfortunately, when using the default terrains as they exists (Chernarus and Utes), no matter the location, there is always some ambiguity as to:

1. How thick was the vegetation?

2. Could I see some pixels through it?

3. Did the underlying view-lods actually block the entire view? And how would I even know if the view-lods did block the entire view, as I can't see them in-game?

Etc, etc, etc...

However, with a TON of hand placed bush objects packed tightly together, all doubt is removed. ;)

Though ill look at your mission tomorrow anyway, but i already believed you were shot trough those bushes. ;)

Right on... Fair enough. :)

[MavericK96 0]

Rapidhare...omfg!

Why not megaupload or mediafire?

:)

Any of those would be better than EasyShare, lol.

[whisper 0]

Now, I know that AI-View-Blocking is actually suppose to be based on view-lods.

Sure of that? Isn't there a LoD specifically for AI view blocking? There was a mod that made it bigger to avoid easy detection by AI? And BI made some changes in A2 later on

That said, if you can't find any place in Cherna or Taki that will show the issue... then there's no issue, is there? :) (at least on Cherna or Taki)

[Big Dawg KS 6]

Try the above mission. Can they also predict your teleporting? :p

If they can then that might be a bug. If you can come up with a good repro mission post it on the CIT. But the prediction is certainly intended behavior.

[Bouben 3]

If they can then that might be a bug. If you can come up with a good repro mission post it on the CIT. But the prediction is certainly intended behavior.

It is not the case I was talking about. I absolutely understand, that they will predict from which corner of a house I would pop up, but read my last comment to Richie:

Hey, Richie - please, read this carefully.

In reality: if you stand up from tall grass and fire on an enemy, he will naturally spot you and return fire and remember your position. But then (imagine, you are 500 meters away) you lay down back in grass. So now you are not seen, but the enemy still knows your last position and continues firing at your position - fair enough. But you decide to crawl away (hidden in grass and not seen) to the left so the enemy must decide where to aim his blind fire to grass around you somewhere in the last spotted area, because he naturally doesn't know in which direction you've decided to go. And imagine, that he've decided to fire mostly to the right so he does not hit you. So you are still alive and crawling to the left, because he's still 500m from you and moreover - firing blindly in a wrong direction. After some 200m of crawling in tall grass you've reached - unseen - some hole and hidden there...and so on.

Well, do you finally understand my point? This situation is absolutely impossible in the game because you would not be able to confuse enemy in such a way because once contact is started, enemy will literally ignore grass at all and see every change in your direction even if you are crawling 500m away. So he will not be confused and will not have to decide in which direction put his blind fire. He will simply pinpoint (!) you, because now he see through grass untill knowsAbout reaches 0. That's it.

Please, tell me, that you finally understand, what I mean. I have a suspicion for terrible misunderstanding because I've never said, that I should vanish in grass after I lay down again and enemy should forget.

Thanks, and have a good time.

Now you should understand what we are talking about. It is about grass NOT blocking AI's LOS. That's it and I am repeating myself like hundred times. It is maybe unbelievable to you, but I know quite well what I am talking about, cause I've spent many hours with this in editor.

And of course, this "bug" or simply "unfinished stuff" is already reported for 9 months. See this ticket: AI view not obstructed by grass layer (or woods thicket) which is also reproduced and confirmed and also assigned.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Bouben

[walker 0]

Hi all

To MadRussian: As I said this thread is about ArmA Myths not ArmA and who knows what Mod myths.

I have proved that AI sight is blocked by bushes with the mission that is now in the MYTH: The AI sees through bushes! spoiler of my very first post in this thread. Here is the link again:

http://www.downloads.thechainofcommand.net/zips/X_Ray_AI_Mythbusted.zip

If you can provide a mission in Vanilla ArmA like it then we can take the Debate further.

I will now use the Logical argument of Reducto Absurdiem (Reduction to the Absurd) to show that the premise that the "The AI sees through bushes!" myth can be tested with the Map Eu MOD is incorrect.

If what you say about the MOD being the same as Vanilla ArmA were true, then it too would be able to produce the same results as my example mission, you have stated it cannot. If it cannot produce the same effects as Vanilla ArmA then "Ipso Facto" the MOD works diferent to vanilla ArmA in this aspect of blocking AI views, this is the inescapable conclusion of your own experiment MadRussian.

If on the other hand you can make the Map EU MOD produce the same results as my test mission in vanilla ArmA you have proved that the "The AI sees through bushes!" is Mythbusted!

It there for follows that to argue that the statement "The AI sees through bushes!" can be tested through the MAP EU MOD is there for Absurd. QED.

Kind Regards walker

Edited July 27, 2010 by walker

[Bouben 3]

Overall I say the AI does not see through Grass or have X-ray eyes or Radar tracking.

Unfortunately - THEY ARE. But only ONCE (this is an important word here) you have been spotted in whatever situation in whatever place and your knowsAbout is activated. Then it is impossible in whatever situation in whatever place to hide somewhere in a grass, even if you was fast as light and managed to run away for a kilometer in one second. Untill your knowsAbout is 0, they will find you anytime, anywhere in grass even if grass is higher than a standing man. They can even snipe you in your golden teeth crawling in a meter long grass, because once is your knowsAbout activated, grass is not blocking their LOS anymore. Repeating myself, repeating myself....repeating myself...tired...repeating myself...