gammadust

This thread tries to make room for all the Midrange Detail textures experimentation and feedback anyone wants to contribute. It may be looked at also as a gallery and pre release chamber for the hopefully many alternatives that may appear. When contributing keep in mind forum rules regarding image/file size. Having felt compelled to create my own midrange detail textures for Stratis after the great work by Bad Benson and keeping in mind the very useful discussion on this topic iniciated by NordKindchen, here's some of my trials: Scene 1 Scene 2 Related gallery 1 and gallery 2 with different grounds/scenes. Download example. I'll also try to make these views more uniform so that they overlay better for pixel-to-pixel comparisons. I would like to leave some personal observations: Textures require versatility (the same texture is used to detail grass, dry grass, sand, rocky grounds, concrete - urban settings, the hardest to satisfy) Detail scale should approximate soldier sizes (in order to better break their silhuettes and help camouflage) Shadows if any should be projected northwards (down when editing), never too long (fitting a Stratis northern hemisphere average projection) They should have a level of very low frequency noise (to diversify the landscape in zoomed out views - breaks the most the urban setting) The above has the side effect of making repeating patterns more noticeable at distance, never darken it too much There's a compromise between abstraction and naturalness (make them too natural and they get less fit for disparate grounds, too abstract and mere noise would bring the same effect) Increasing the resolution above 1024x1024 has no apparent benefit Performance appears to suffer no impact with new textures in my tests and others To evaluate results: having the default texture in view is handy, testing the different grounds, both sighted and unsighted views, placed soldiers for camouflage effectiveness Want to give it a shot? Dynamic Texturing Script Description: - Dynamicaly updates the transition between Mid and Close range textures on the fly (dependent on Field of View) Download: GAM_DynamicTexturing Full effect depends on the following Textures: Mid Range download (version *_a2 used in video - check zip for variations) Close Range download (dry grass for Stratis and Altis)* To install them, you must unpack original map_data.pbo to a folder, extract these textures from zip and overwrite the original ones, finally repack it all up again and put it in one mod folder. *Unfortunately, i'm unable to easily share thess texture as a mod which implies uploading the full set of surface textures (+200Mb) Video:

ArmaSideMap WIP by Gamma Teaser ALERT! Description: (Tentative) Arma extension that mimics the in-game moving map as an external aplication which one can lay in a second monitor or even via network on a secondary computer. Features/Usage: (Tentative) Basic usage is still being defined, but there shouldn't be much deviations from what it is right now (also because there is not much interaction required from such an application). Map moves along with player keeping him centered (maybe add the option to just keep player on-screen) Player icon shows direction Map can be moved arbitrarily when ASM has focus (currently keys, maybe mouse driven), repositioning itself as soon as it receives new position update. ASM uses sockets for IPC, allowing seamless usage in a networked 2nd computer (if you don't have dual monitor setup). ASM executable is the server and ASM dll extension is the client. Fullscreen mode, the application itself is still 2D but removing the application bar helps a lot in immersion. * Screenshot shows version information in the hint dialog and received information confirming both map positioning and player position on map in the sideChat (showing internal coordinates) To do: Support for more icons (player's group units, color coded side/faction units, vehicles, etc.) Add support for markers (objectives, AOs, etc.) Figure a way to deal with zoom levels and map scale (currently 1 pixel = 0.5 meters) Map loading optimizations and memory footprint (test map uses up ~70Mb of RAM in a 2x2km "Desert" - no paging implemented) Devise some sort of handshaking strategy between the running ASM instance script and the server running the mission (to limit information displayed) Secondary: Mimic arma's gps unit (watch and radio! units) in the map. Secondary: Given the added realestate to display information, all sort of status stuff could migrate to this screen (depends on a yet to implement GUI) Known Issues: Map movement precision is limited (1 on-screen pixel, no sub-pixel support any soon) Icons may leave trail behind (issue arises if the rate of update is too high) Instalation: (Tentative) There are at least three components for having a running ArmaSideMap: The executable, and associated map assets, which will probably require an installer (at the very least detailed installation instructions from a zip), the way it communicates with arma it can sit anywhere on your hardrive, even a remote computer. The Arma extension (dll), installed in a mod folder (must be its root) A mission script which can be attached to an arbitrary mission which one wants to use together with ArmaSideMap. Requirements: Arma 2: Operation Arrowhead (>= Beta 87662) Download?? Well not yet :/ (i hate logistics). Despite 3 weeks worth of free time, this is still very alpha, I intend to provide the full package in a minimal state. I can't make promises since real life will show no respect next week, but I am doing my very best to release this alpha next weekend or in 2 weeks time. And if it is mature enough along with the whole source code, if it is not mature enough at least the source code of the arma extension dll will always be made available no matter what. Take note that at best I am a scripter, this is my first "real sized" project with a compiler in my hands. Btw, i am doing this in C++ against MingW. Anyway, the main point of the thread is to let you guys know (and tease you a bit) with a working moving map for Arma, hopefully given some interest i antecipate in this, wanted features could start to pop in here, and help me take those steps back one should always do, to get the bigger picture that is easy to miss when one is so focused on its dealings. Though I'll prolly keep silent until next weekend, please do: Fire at will! 26/05/2012 UPDATE - Download (no mirrors please)

^^ this. Some observations based on flightradar24 datapoints: - datapoint does not correspond directly to flightradar24 graph (likely to some data smooth interpolation) - some datapoints are out of chronological order (per timestamp, due to multiple reporting stations - anyone with a ADS-B receiver can share flight data) - the graph suggests a gradual climb begining just before 04:12, whereas datapoint only suggest abnormal flight parameters begining at 04:12:57 - data is shared transponder data reflecting same data as flight computer - speed, altitude and vertical speed are air pressure based sensors

The developing story that may change Europe reached a turning point. After hesitating in posting this in the European Politics thread, i believe the events themselves and future developements justify a proper thread. Not whishing to guide too much the eventual discussions that may arise, i am particularly interested in views actual greeks may share here. In any case this definitely concerns all European Union country members in their political-economic relations. And perhaps of particular interest to those countries attempting to access the Eurozone. Warning extensive spoilers, open at your time availability's peril [bBC] 28 June 2015 - Greece debt crisis: MPs back referendum on bailout 28 June 2015 - [Press office - General Secretariat of the Council] 27 June 2015 - Eurogroup statement on Greece [Zerohedge] 28 June 2015 - Greek Capital Controls Begin: Greek Banks, Stock Market Will Not Open On Monday [Global Research] 27 June 2015 - Greece – The Delphi Declaration

i'm less and less qualified to share specific opinions, since there is a long time i don't dive into arma's AI, but 2 notes: - in another thread cosmic10r shared an interesting video, where AI would scan for a threat recently made aware. This is interesting because it hints at the expected human-like behaviour when one does not exacly know where a communicated threat is. One of my earlier issues with AI target sharing was its 1 to 1 precision, not merely the no-delay and range aspects. In the video i can't tell if the lack of precision is due to communication imposed message degradation or the low precision information available to the originator AI. The scaning behaviour, while not new, looks very believable in this context. - i share the opinion that inter-group information sharing should be considered another beast, i'm sceptical on attempts to address it before basic inner-group communication can be found acceptable. Also this is relatively easy to address via mods. Things that i started to look out for regarding target acquisition via communication: - Rate, Accuracy, and Immediacy of Target sharing (ingroup) - Accuracy of prediction routines - Likelyhood of shooting under low expectations of success

That is a big "if". I just think that something being "observed" or not is not sufficient to determine if some system should be modeled or not. Enemy communication is a good example, you won't see or hear them communicate, yet it is quite debatable if a model ignoring communication will present a believable end effect. ALIVE for instance will, for processing budget issues, suspend simulation of AI units, caching them when out of sight of the player(s), still employs a custom outcome simulation of opposing AI encounters likely to happen. If the cpu cycles spent in this simpler simulation are worthy is another issue altogether. In simulation terms, out of observation is not by definition and necessarily unmodeled.

could you develop further that view?

I disagree here, while you're right that arma is not a sidescroller, attempts in machine learning show success with more complexity than that. Reinforcement learning is not necessarily constrained to one reward vector alone (ie. longest distance). It is not the current limited number of states in the environment either anymore, it is the memory of state > action > reward in past experiences too. Machine learning already addresses infinite state environments. I'm leaning towards the latter, in some supervised fashion. Here is what AI should mimic take this positive reward if successful, take this negative reward if failed. I did imagine, i can't wait for it.

But could be. Machine learning could be employed to such low level decision processes too, actually it should be easier to start there, and only then increment upon with higher level features, be them handcrafted by the coder or latent and "discovered" from the training provided. One issue is that the decision space and dimensionality is infinite. We have two possible directions: firstly, we let the AI train randomly and explore that infinite space by itself and it will most definitely diverge from human behaviour since it will figure its own features/decision criteria, secondly we control, as you suggest, the training (the context) we will provide the AI, in the hope that the converging happens around features which are human intelligible. Another issue: AI inputs and outputs, their constraints are slightly different than that which the player deals with (data available and decision vectors respectively). We can't exactly evaluate one to one and gauge the balance between them, unless we impose some evenness. Take enemy identification for instance, the AI is provided an hardcoded threshold of identification based on a set number of variables, players rely on visual perception and a contextually tied, relative importance of on screen information. Take the shooting decision on the other hand, here the AI and the player similarly follow a disparate pattern. Third issue: how to evaluate these gaps if not via the end result? No matter how close we make inputs and outputs similar this will never be sufficient since only a very small difference in inputs will have catastrophically different end results (given current machine learning solutions). Consequently this will require a broad evaluation of competing behaviours. We must use the human behaviour as a "ground truth" instead of the abstract solution figured by the trained AI (despite it likely being more effective if given the training time), in order to serve the players an enjoyable experience. Fourth issue: Arma hides plenty of AI decision processes deep down. To control the process above the behaviour evaluation cannot proceed if there are intervening variables influencing the end result there being no means to observe. The only alternative left is to totaly nullify current AI and build it up from scratch, task which will involve coding the AI and the concurrent systems which are hip-tied to it (ie. animation, communication, etc.) Summary: - Behaviour evaluation - Data collection - Magic - Balanced AI

I remember he provided a version where he merely repeated the modified tile he had worked on through the remaining tile "slots". I quickly tested it and it felt ok, i think there was certain delay when loading the map (M key). In any case, i agree, i would prefer some other solution, his second suggestion looks much more promising.

NordKitchen's method changes satellite texs not mid-range. I think bohemia's reluctance is more related with the huge file size increase then performance or workman hours. If i recall correctly: 1. the performance impact was negligible 2. the tex size increase was from 1024x1024 to 4096x4096 corresponding to ~16x increase in file size, unrealistic, if we halve this effort we won't get such a crisp results as in above examples 3. producing such a satmap by hand is not necessary, one might as well automate the process, do a final manual pass in the seams and bake the result into the satmap His second suggestion is much more interesting, opening up and improving the way actual mid-range textures are used via the "logic map" (ie. multiple tex depending on underlying terrain). Fine examples of the improvement shown with BadBenson's experiments. I did some suggestions on it too (engine/ ).I certainly hope Bohemia is addressing the issue one way of the many available.

Euro Summit Diktat, 12 July 2015 for our reading pleasure.

What have i done? @All (including MistyRonin) I owe apologies to everyone. When i created this thread my objective was to enable a more topical space for us to discuss the ever important Greek issue. I have a strong feelling my last two posts killed that discussion. Quite self-defeating. Just when i was congratulating the thread for its heating up FPDR. It should not matter if some opinions struck some sensitive strings of mine, there is a limit to too personal engagements in a public forum. Some arrogance in me prevented me from taking it to PM, i apologise everyone and specially MistyRonin for that. I'm committed not allowing that happen again. Please, let's resume normal discussion. Now we are indeed in an expectations period, but news should be coming soon.

@MistyRonin It is merely the cronological sequence of your comments, the only exception, explicitely stated so, reveals how much incongruent you proceed in the discussions (you should be proud, we have about three and counting). My supposed faulty logic, "pattern" tailoring, who knows even, extractions out-context, will be up to any bored someone to evaluate, since everything is properly linked, and quoted. Contrary to you, i prefer substantiation at the expense of verbosity, it is a known cost. Shortcuts lead to misunderstandings. And you may correctly assume this is my concern when faced with ignorance/myth based opinions, one learns quite a lot by doing it. Notice it might also benefit you, if you actually envision a carreer/serious hobby in manipulation, knowing where might still get improvements and such. We get to know each other better, don't we? Regarding Syriza* my honest opinion is that they have proved to employ naivety, even since their elections win back in January, and they should have prepared the Greeks better for an EMU exit, the most likely since the begining at the least. But since they arrived where they arrived, i actually think making this Troika face the realities how they are, being joined by many qualified persons to the effect, makes their ongoing effort worthy. It is not only europe's peoples that are awaking, the distant institutions are too! *Ohhh my orthographic dyslexia... still prefer orthographic than substantive type.

Wha... someone is on fire, i leave the thread half a day and it grows like there is no tomorrow. @MistyRonin Re: Official Tsipras stance on reducing/cutting Greece's defence spending. Thank you for the extra sources. No doubt domestically that has made many headlines, i have to wonder why there was so much reluctance in picking that piece of news in the international media. Tsipras backtracking on commitments in previous Greece's proposals definitely look bad to his electorate. Knowing that NATO, IMF and his junior Coalition member blocked/is blocking such a defence expense reduction proposal, this becomes quite a bind! In any case, this brings me disappointment at Tsipras. You, otoh: (if you bare with me a sec)

as of right now there is 9 10 results for that official "Tsipras' office issued a one-sentence statement" with 6 days. is there any possibility to get a second source?

The greek people is ALREADY starving. And it is not because of Tsipras/Syriza, it is because of the Austerity measures! Subject: Poverty and under-nourishment among Greek schoolchildren Question to the European Comission (31 March 2015): Answer (18 June 2015): *[Keep Talking Greece] 12 Februrary 2015 - Poll: 25% of Athens school children going hungry [Ansamed] 6 April 2012 - Crisis: Greece, more than 400,000 children hungry Compare the approaches taken by Greece vs Iceland and the effects on the population at large... According to Eurostat the People at risk of poverty or social exclusion (years 2004 - 2014) Of course, under the European Monetary Union, since the sovereignty on monetary policy has been surrendered by member states, it is the ECB/European Commission that has the statutory responsability to eventually proceed following similar solutions to the crisis as Iceland did. If anything, not accepting austerity measures, Syriza, is avoiding an aggravation of the problem.

@Angela Merkel [The Nation] 7 July 2015 - Austerity Has Failed: An Open Letter From Thomas Piketty [table=width: 60%] [tr] [td] [/td] [/tr] [/table] @Europe [uSA Today] 7 July 2015 - Europe must back away from Greek austerity cliff: Joseph Stiglitz [table=width: 60%] [tr] [td] [/td] [/tr] [/table] @All The overwhelming majority of Greeks and to a lesser extent the remaining european peoples, those not involved in any of the irresponsible banking decisions, have been squeezed out of their precarious conditions of life. They have less and less to loose. The banks and the distant political class, some times deregulating democracies, other times via proven and criminal corruption, are the ones that profited and gained the most. They have everything to loose. The ball is definitely on the Troika's court, either they keep on sowing economic chaos or reconsider, come to their senses and give an already very diminished opportunity to avoid the consequent social chaos.

We're looking at the problem in different ways, but we're not exacly disagreeing. One could also say "So it isn't dishonest nor ignorance to say that the German mentality isn't outside the problem", singling this or that culture out is what brings disconfort, so i prefer a more conservative approach and look at the concrete corruption cases instead of blanket statements. If i suggested so, i take the correction. Also, thank you for the link, historic rhymes are usualy useful, i'm reading it now.

and the hard to swollow political stretch starts with... Varoufakis announces resignation as finance minister or in his own words: My question now is if Tsipras and the remaining finance team will have the same will and conviction to carry out with the proposals which Varoufakis fought so hard.

First let me congratulate the Greeks for their courage by voting OXI - a resounding NO to the Troikas' Austerity Diktats. (BTW, Quite surprising how a 50%-50% at all polls turns out to be 61%-39%). They are facing hard times, much as the rest of the european peoples. They have for five years followed the european measures, resulting in nothing close to the objectives put forth, and to their great sacrifice. It is now their turn to give themselves hope and opt for different solutions out of the crisis, their success is still far from garanteed. Greece staying in eurozone: Syriza has reiterated their commitment to keeping Greece in the eurozone. This is also their January election mandate, so we can say with confidence, that is also the Greeks' wish. But the question beyond economic/financial is also necessarily political at the european level. First if it is an economically viable course, secondly if the required political stretch will be possible to accommodate by Germany (which is the ultimate deciding party here). The question from the first pov is basically how convincing Syriza proposals will be in stabilizing the financial side of the economics, and how rational the institutions will be in accepting them. From the second pov, it will be how palatable to the German political class and the interests they represent will accept the humiliation of the failure contained within not following their choosen solution. There being a political face-saving exit or not when following a small left party course of action. Taking "our" loss: We should keep in mind that the Greek State Debt was hold by private banks (mainly French and German) up to the first bail out terms implemented from 2010 and 2012. These operations transfered the debt onto the European tax payer's Institutions, namely the ECB, EFSF, ESM, etc. Syriza, as a matter of fact, was out in the streets protesting against this solution, but they were faced with the fait acompli. This will be the european tax payer loss only because the Troika "risked" being so. How legal that transfer of liability ocurred might still be investigated and the original private banks that were able to offload to the public domain might still be called upon to take the losses. We must realise this is a systemic and deeply structural issue. I am not counting on naivety making the private banks take the losses willingly, it is just that the stability of the system depends on the sharing of the losses. Hard times for the Greeks: The Greeks are not exacly alone, they are just at the frontline and receiving end of the economic damage brought by such criminal banking practices. They are also leading the european peoples resistance against it. They've just been made to realize sooner what the rest of us inevitably will in the short-medium term. Banking system corruption: It is not just the Greek's, the whole banking system globally engaged in very risky practices bordering criminality, the scandals mount upon each other, and the economic damage to the societies they operate on increased exponentialy. It was precisely the dilution of responsability provided by the financial engineering of the derivatives market that enabled the global paralysis at the level of regulation. The high levels of corruption, both active (private banking level) and the passive (government level), was just the means to an end: remove the existing barriers that societies had raised against such finance lead takeover. This is in no way directed at you, ProfTournesol, but I still feel the need to emphasize the following point: the argument of (undeniable) corruption must be properly directed, the reason why i engaged in heated discussion previously. It is far too frequent being raised as a "Greek problem", supposedly embedded within "greek culture". Mere logic will not let a whole people as a collective take responsability for a crime which is very precisely defined, agents of this crime are not difuse collectives, they are individuals in key positions both on the public and private sector. I have to qualify as ignorance of a dishonest type pushing this argument the simplistic way the mainstream media has been doing. I will leave for those interested in getting a deeper sense about the immediate scenarios the most detailed proposal addressing how to deal with the Greek Debt, advanced by Varoufakis/Holland/Galbraith in 2013, which are likely to be presented back to the Troika, energized with the referendum result. Its conclusion serving as good summary of the pratical issues. It is ultimately this proposal and how conving it will be that will decide the Eurozone fate of Greece.

@MistyRonin There you are projecting the flaws of your limited observations (compulsive focus on the Greek Government corruption, ignoring the rest). My vision is fine thank you... again! - - - Governing via ad hoc measures to solve structural problems, breaking contracts with current private defense public procurement holders and such is what seems to be the alternative. Not saying totaly negligible or impossible if it turns out that some measures had indeed been taken. (which again you choose to ignore) - - - Misrepresentation of my opinion is also one of your prefered strategies, when i never said the victim was the Syriza Gov. which apparently you became convinced i am so in love. I always refered to the victims as being the Greek population, but let's extend that to the defense businesses which lost public contracts due to "competition distortion", now that we know a bit more of the definition of the crime under discussion. - - - It is you who barely speak of the patient, or the infection and it is very arguable when symptoms become cause for worse predicaments. That is if i get your metaphor straight: patient = population / infection = Gov. corruption / symptom = defense contractors & junk derivatives holders - - - You know perfectly that the point of resorting to the European Treaty document was to help legally define the dimensions of corruption not excluding none, but i concede, indeed i should have been more precise. It transposes into the same thing though: Communication from the Commission to the Council, the European Parliament and the European Economic and Social Committee - On a comprehensive EU policy against corruption The Civil Law Convention on Corruption of the Council of Europe [na: cited above] Note that both the passive and active dimensions of corruption are condensed in Article 2. Note also how distortion of competition and economic loss are also there. This was my sole point in bring the law about, do you have a further point on this? - - - Yes confusion is nothing surprising given the complexity and stakes in play, yet i don't run from it, actually i learned quite a lot in this discussion, and confirmed some suspicions too. - - - I won't venture crystal balls in regards to Syriza maintenance, or the referendum outcome for that matter. But given how dire the situation is for Greeks with or without Syrisa, and given the competence in evaluating the reality* which i identify in the latter, what i dare say is that Europe is better with them in play than without. *i know this is opinion but recently IMF changed its stance and now shares what Syriza has been saying all along: The Greek debt is unsustainable and must be restructured against amounts and schedule [Zerohedge] 2 July 2015 IMF Bolsters Greek "No" Vote, Says Country Needs Much Bigger Debt Haircut I confess i tend to have a crush for girls who face reality, and all things equal between Syrisa and Lagarde i'll pick one night stand with Syrisa.

I apologise, i'll proceed with quotes, separate what MistyRonin seem to be fond in mixing, and attempt to clarify where i might have not. Be afraid all you want, i am pretty sure i am following much of the complexity involved. I do grant you half a point, i was wondering about that confusion but at least put myself in doubt: happy to be wrong! :) You will find that since first input regarding these corruption issues, i have been very keen in keeping the roles and respective responsibilities identified instead of bundled together. Honestly, I don't see how adding a plural transforms the subject into its past instances alone either, therefore supposedly excluding the current one. Specially if relying just on context which is hardly around to be seen in your input underlining the relevant differences (ie. Troika austerity measures being - supported enthusiastically / shown serious cepticism - by each governements ) No, i claimed the argument is tainted with hypocrisy instead, exactly because i keep hearing that argument being thrown around in what consists in an attempt to focus only on the recipients of corruption. Which amounts to blantant lies of omission, hiding the others that benefited from the same corruption, given the facts presented, juridical follow up and ultimate condemnation. It has been proven already. Mildly speaking only irresponsible ignorance allows one to omit such public facts if alluding to the corruption issue. This is not "most legal systems", it is the European, the German and the Greek. The authoritative word on how "serious", is the institutions' and is related to the damage done and it's victims, instead of that BS assumption, see: Treaty on European Union, on corruption in the private sector This confirms my introducing definition previously ("the corruptionist pays the corrupted to gain access to some privilege at the expense of a third party"), it further defines the threshold of criminality based on two criteria depending on the damage and it's victims: distortion of competition and economic damage to third parties. It also reflects that the penalties are not exclusively attributed via fines. Not forgeting anything, much the same as i did on the Goldman Sachs corruption allusion previously, i am interested in finding which entities fulfilled which corruption role (Passive Corruption - "corrupted", Active Corruption - "corruptionist", Third Party(ies) - "victim(s)"), and so my best understanding help me not neglecting anyone, which i think was successful, since i mentioned all of those and did not misrepresent their roles previously. You on the other hand, insist on focusing on the Passive Corruption side of the issue without substantiating much. This should make you notice that i am adding upon instead of merely contradicting the partial truth of your contributions in the discussion. I invite you to really inform yourself better, there are three accounts for your ignorance: 1. Syriza made public it's proposal quite some time ago and its contents negate your assertion that "non-necessary expenditures" were not envisioned, see: [Reuters] 24 February 2015 - Greek finance minister's letter to the Eurogroup 2. Syriza is executing the previous government's budget (Antonis Samaras - Dec 2014-2015). It had no chance yet to balance, approve, nevermind implement one based on his own policies. 3. Syriza capability to govern on its own policy is hostage to reaching an agreement with the Troika. There is no "Tspiras and Varoufakis" Budget possible until then, hence no budgetary reform policy either. Extending explicitly to the current government what should or should not have been done by the latter, only reveals how out of depth you are in properly analysing the whole issue.

They have everything to do, according to the german justice: [The Irish Times] 11 December 2014 - German arms manufacturer fined €37m for Greek bribes ...but also according to the current Greek Government which seems to dislike that corruption as much as you. [Keep Talking Greece] 27 February 2015 - Greece to exclude Siemens, Rheinmetall & Eurocopter from public procurements The defense industry is up to their necks involved in the corruption that upsets you, there were similar cases in portugal too, this time around with submarines. As if i had claimed it was a fantasy, you have issues with active reading don't you, second language perhaps? What I said, and reiterate so that you may overcome whatever it is that enables that active reading deficit is: If anything it only underlines how the Greeks, which are paying the fat share of the austerity, are the victims of the levels of corruption involved. First because the amounts were subtracted from their state budget depriving them from valuable resources, and secondly because this compounded the reasons forcing the previous governements into further debt. These are actually arguments towards turning part of the debt into odious illegal and illegitimate, something which ultimately will lead to its writedown. The troika are the last ones to see this happen, hence my circunspection of you bringing this argument. Are you sure you still want to present this argument against the current Greek Governement (because that is what it looks like)?

Yes... i meant: It is hypocrisy since the those Governements were pressured to do so being members of Nato, and the recipients of the budget were to a great part the same countries that now censor those decisions. How's that for hypocrisy? Also given that the Governments deciding on those budgets are gone, and the current was not able to decide on any Greek State Budget yet, given the state of negotiations preventing so, it is like adding insult to injury bringing that argument on the current discussion.