cjsoques

I feel confident in saying that OFP-DR will sell more in it's first month of launch that ARMA2 for the first year. The reason for this is marketing as well as it being launched simultaneously on the 360 and the PS3. If it is good I'm getting it on the 360 too so I can have more casual play. I've been watching the most recent videos fairly closely and it is actually quite realistic in my point of view. The hardcore mode is very promising. I want a game that is realistic and gives the immerse feeling of realism, while allowing efficient and quick entry into the game (not sure if this makes sense at all). ARMA falls short in immersion due to the bugs and glaring unrealistc aspects of some features that kill it, and falls short of efficient entry into the game due to the clunky and unoptimized interface, just my opinion. Oh well.

With you on that richiespeed, The true test will be if you can cram 1700 AI into OFPDR and secondly if it will have the same awesomeness as your ARMA2 vids, then I'll get the game!

Can't remember the nifty quote for this situation but it basically states that when you try to include too many things you end up failing at all of those things instead of being successful at a couple things if you concentrated your efforts, not sure if this makes sense...the quote was much better :)

I sorta am with that idea, not to steal your thread richiespeed but here's one I just came up with after reading your post: I do not know if you recall guys but Falcon 4.0 was supposed to be the first in the series of the Virtual Battlefield. In this concept, Falcon 4.0 was supposed to just be a module of many to be incorporated into an over-arching military simulation. For example, the next release might be a full-blown M1A2 sim, the next release, Infantry, the next Release F-14 with carrier ops, the next release various light vehicles. Thus creating a number of high fidelity simulators all compatible with each other as modules. I absolutely loved this idea and of course it failed because Falcon 4.0 itself took forever to come to fruition. Some kind of module/component release system like that would be pretty amazing..like an infantry pack, then light vehicle pack, then armor pack If I recall DCS is doign that and coming out with an A-10 module after BlackShark that is all compatible

Back on topic, basically it seems all are in agreement that sales are not strong and the target audience for ARMA2 is small because of this: A) They don't quite cater to full blown hardcore simulator people and B) They don't quite cater to casual Battlefield/COD people So in result, they end up not catering to anybody really and leave themselves with a much smaller market in which to sell their product to it seems. They had no clear target audience with which to prioritize features. Other factors include the loss of the brand name, the unresponsive management/development, and sloppy quality control, and marketing, and lacked of major improvement from one release to another All of those ingredients add up to a whole bucket of fail in my mind :/ = small market

But that is exactly my point. Falcon 4.0 absolutely gives the simulation aspect in the respect that it provides the feeling of actually performing an F-16 combat mission, regardless of how the hit point system is modeled that is transparent to the user because the sim behaves as expected. It has no standout issues that go..wait? what's going on here, that doesn't look right... All the issues in ARMA2 detract from that immersion of feeling like your are in an actual combat mission. You tell your man to drive down the road yet he is hitting a tree or a rock every 100meters...kinda kills the immersion factor. Another example. You are on a hill with a Javelin, you hit Tab and Click and away your weapon goes to the nearest target...yeah that felt like I just use a simulated advanced piece of military technology. /sarcasm In Falcon 4.0 you could have a mode where you pretty much hit Tab and Click and it would fire at your nearest target...or you could have such immersion to the point where you would have to point and angle your radar beam and angle your craft in such a way that you could pick up targets, identify via IFF and other friendly comms, uncage the weapon, and release. There is nothing as advanced or detailed at all in ARMA2 in any aspect...therefore it really isn't a SIM at all and I stand by that.

thanks!

The problem with this game is that it really isn't as "SIM" as one would think. Sure the infantry and associated weapons are modeled quite well but everything else is quite pathetic. But this is really a game with an open environment where nearly anything is possible, if done right, but... -The vehicle physics/modeling are non-existent, even to arcade level, GTA4 does a much better job in the way a car actually behaves, There'd be crashes all over the roads if cars drove like they did in OFP/ARMA -The airplane physics/modeling are non-existent. Both helicopters and aircraft do no behave nearly as they should, not even close. It's great to have them to fly around in but they just don't feel real at all. I do have to say they did do a better job with helos that fixed-wing though -The AI is more A than I if you get my drift. They seem to do unpredictable things which is nice but they do them in irrational manners which is not nice. For example driving into trees, mid-air crashing, irrational troop movements -General physics are just FUBAR What this game does have for it is: +Truly open environment +Limitless scenario possibilities +Large scale dynamic warfare The pros are also their biggest obstacles to overcome, but do not think that this game is up to a SIM level as DCS Black Shark or Falcon 4, the systems in ARMA2 (including the infantry aspect) do not even come close to the complexity of these sims. If done right, there could have been allowable modes for ARMA that allow for easy access and not difficult play, while at the same time allowing for complexities if you want them. ARMA2 could have really been a game that all would like without sacrificing the above aspects that have it going for it. I'm sorry if you think this game is a SIM, but it just really isn't when you look at the individual Unit behavior level.

Haha, to be clear, I bought OFP back when it was released, didn't get expansions, bought ARMA1 twice (retail and download, didn't get useless addon), bought ARMA2, then bought OFP Gold since I lost my old OFP key, to compare with current progress in ARMA2 (OFP Gold was actually a ton of fun!) Like I've said before, it's the only game like it out there and I'm willing to support it until there is someone else and beats them at their own game. Also, I'm more patient than my friends when it comes to games/sims :)

I abbreviated your post but you have it spot on :) DCS Black Shark did a similar thing and teamed with the community to make some very amazing in-game videos. I think they were Glowing Amraam team or something. They also incorporated community made skins/mods into their 1.0.1 patch which is very commendable. The ideas you talk about are very social-networking/community oriented which is where all major companies (not just game companies) are directing their attention, not just because it is effective but also relatively cheap and great representation. I would LOVE to see a weekly/bi-weekly blog or post just quickly saying what they are working on but they can't really even do that (which I've seen many developers do lately, especially in the Battlefield community) I really want to believe in this game and the developer, if they become more active the community will proportionally become more active and will be supported by more sales

If that is indeed true, then I can understand why the game does not seem to have the success/sales that it really should have. You can tell by the majority of stability and satisfaction surveys and the general trend of threads on here are negative. I have friends that I play PR, all different Battlefield, and a little COD with and showed them initial videos of ARMA2 as well as RichieSpeed's amazing large scale war videos and they were sold. Sadly, none of them play anymore because none of them could get past bugs in the campaign in the first few missions as well as wild instability with machines that are much more decent than mine, the laggidy laggy multiplayer also didn't help either. I mean I got four copies of ARMA2 sold so that is money in BIS pocket but they don't play anymore and I doubt I could ever convince them of another BIS game after their experience.

I sorta understand that. What I meant by the natural feel was the not overdone post processing, the animations of the AI and movement of them seemed more natural, it's annoying when you AI in ARMA does crouch pop up crouch walk backwards the forward the kneels it's just very very clunky, didn't really see that in the little bit I was able to see of OFPDR. Like I said we'll see, but the interface of OFPDR is what got me on those vids

I'm going to disagree with you on that, I've never ever seen a forum with so many thread lockings for no reason at all and it is quite ridiculous, immature, and unnecessary. I've seen threads locked that were just fun amongst forum members, others that were locked after one post that was off-topic. It's really getting silly, it's only a matter of time before this thread gets locked due to it's anti-ARMA/BIS sentiments. I don't think it's hurting sales however as an extremely small percentage of ARMA players get on here to discuss issues/concerns/addons The other 99.9% who bought the game probably stopped playing after a few days because to be honest, it's quite a bit of work to enjoy this game and to utilize it's potential and most gamers have games they want to just enjoy out of the box, which this game is not. Most of those that bought the boxed version probably don't even know about the patches (if there is no auto-update) and Steam users who don't frequent the forums were probably like WTF why is it downloading the whole game over again for a patch!? ARMA and just does not have sustainable features to make sales with their current level of quality control in both the game and community moderation sadly enough.

Extremely well put!

So recently (I believe in the past couple of days) OFP:DR came out with a slew of videos on their forums that a friend told me about, it includes a description of hardcore mode, and three or four gameplay videos. I was a skeptic but after watching a whole mission played through I am quite impressed with what they have to offer, here is what they have I see that ARMA doesn't: -You can't tell if the graphics look better or not, but animations and effects and the overall feel seems more refined -The game is more accessible to all players types from COD type all the way to ARMA (Hardcore Mode) check out the video if you wish, they pretty much stripped the entire HUD of anything! That's going to get exciting and glad they went this way after listening and being response to their customers -The interface is much more modern and efficient and actually matches up this generation of games I really didn't think they would do that well and I'm not getting the game until I see a few serious reviews about it, but it does appear they are giving ARMA a run for it's money. I don't check out the OFPDR forums much so I don't know about vehicles and aircraft but if they nail the infantry, I'd be willing to pay for expansions that would allow vehicles and aircraft (if they aren't already in the game) I'm not an OFPDR fanboy (or an ARMA one for that matter) and I don't even have a forum account there, but after seeing the videos I am impressed and interested to see if these guys can pull something really great off. We'll see what happens.

I would have also taken this instead of fancy graphics as well. Like many endeavors they missed the sweetspot by not catering to their true customer base...those that would have preferred stability performance and realism over fancy post processing. Cosmetics only get you so far

Haha yeah that's goes without saying of course!

If they used this amazing game and incorporated the playability of an arcade shooter like Call of Duty to Battlefield 2 all the way to the current realism of ARMA they would have a Game of the Year without a doubt. For example. DCS Black Shark has a really fun arcade mode while at the same time being the ultimate helicopter flight sim (civil and military) out there and you can change the settings from arcade all the way to full blown simulator. BIS needs to learn to adapt to varying learning curves and player types (those that like COD vs. Battlefield vs. ARMA). If they can do that they will cater to all play types therefore increase sales. If a game with ultra-realism like Black Shark can adapt for Arcade style play, then surely ARMA should have had that ability.

Without first eventually overhauling the engine, the series is pretty much a dead end then. What if we were all playing Half-Life 2 with Half-Life 1's graphics engine? That'd be hillarious, it's almost what it's like. You have to bite the bullet and overhaul eventually, and it seems about now is the right time to fix this.

I agree wholeheartedly, it's the same game with a cosmetic makeover but more bugs and instability. It is literally the same game...after 8 years or so, that's frustrating to those who thought ARMA2 was actually going to be an improvement in stability, interface, and gameplay...in reality it was just graphics and frankly I'd take the first three over graphics any day. The game overall just feel amateurish and hacked together to work. Basically just throwing pieces of features into the game without looking at the overall system or cohesiveness of it. But like I've said before, it's the only game we've got like it and until someone else beats them at their own game, this is all we'll have for the foreseeable future (ARMA3, 4 ,5..) Agree with richie all the way

What the mess do you know what's programmed in to the game? typical ARMA2 fanboi response there :)

What a prick. If it's not your job don't waste your own time and ours responding with useless hate. It's not your job, don't waste your energy being harsh when you could have done nothing and save everyone from reading your rant. It's a wonder how some people put down newbies on this forum...

This should be stickied, thanks for all the helpful info! I'm much better at taking people out now

Epitome of useless and arrogant attitude among the BIS forums :( How was he/she supposed to know that Bezerk was a hold style mode? It really isn't clear by the name "Bezerk" Jeez lighten up and don't reply if you don't have anything useful to help with. I personally like AAS the best, not many servers out there with them. But they are great if you only have 30min or so and you feel like doing hold/conquest style multiplayer PVP. Hope this helps