xawery

Well Cibit, we only won because I managed to blow up that tank in the last minutes of the game Anyway, thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you enjoyed it lads. I won't be able to attend tonight's game, but should you play Lex Talionis I'd very much like to hear about your experiences.

Soooo, Mr. Jinef. It would seem that you beat me to the punch with your Zeus-pimpage powers... *insert Finger Pyramid of Contemplative Evil here* Either way, Jinef is right. Zeus is the place to be, HeyHiHello. Just make sure you have all the necessary addons placed in the right modfolders, otherwise you won't be able to get on the server. A working mic is also an unofficial must. Oh, and don't forget to bring your sarcasm!

At this point I'd like to add that I enjoyed Thief very much, exactly for the reason Pathy stated. I found the world of Thief to be a well-thought, consistent one. A rare occurance. True. And that's what worries me. The tyranny of the majority. If enough people are dumb, stupidness will triumph. As is the case right now. At this moment, it takes a lot of guts to create a game with a learning curve steeper than a donut. Luckily, some people still do it (BattleFront, Paradox Games, Quantic Dream etc.). I think we have strayed from the subject somewhat. However, it's good to see that so many people have such lively thoughts about this issue. At first, I thought this thread would die on the second page. I'm glad it's death won't come before page 5

Hey! If you don't actually participate in Zeus gaming nights you don't get a say! Bad wrist or not...

Goddammmit man read my initial post on the subject! It's crystal clear. Crystal you hear me?! CRYSTAL! Incidentally, I would like to congratulate you on being one of the few people to correctly spell "human pwnz0r" in this entire thread

The key term to your argument is "enjoy". "Enjoy", just like "fun" are subjective terms, although as of late they are being applied as if they were absolute ("school needs to be fun" etc. etc.). I'm sure there are tons of people who enjoy simplistic concepts just to have quick 'n' dirty "fun" (Torment, Diablo, Dungeon Siege etc.). As I said before in my initial post, that is all good and well, everyone to it's own etc., but the fact remains that there are people who enjoy realism in books/games/films, even if the aforementioned media contain fantastic elements. The problem is, this crowd (to which I belong) remains underserved. That is true, but that doesn't mean you cannot have realism, or a believable world. Call me old-fashioned, but I expect more from the material I consume. I have a limited amount of free time on my hands, and thus I expect the games which I play in my spare time to be truly interesting and engrossing, not some trite waste of time. I like detail and I pay attention to it. I am a firm believer in suspense of disbelief (no fiction can exist without it), but there are boundaries. Oh, and don't throw that AD&D example at me, because you know full well that's not what I mean... There is nothing 'engrossing' (haha) about overweight 28-year olds debating the intricacies of arbitarily set rules. I'm not talking about the details of ice golems vs. phoenix whatever, but the logical implications of introducing magic or other fantasy elements into a world similar to our own. There's quite a difference. Again, the crux of my argument is the following. The vast majority of today's games is directed at players who prefer simplistic, instant-gratification fun, irrespective on the genre (Battlefield series, all the dungeon-hack games etc.). Truly interesting games (Fahrenheit, Bioshock etc.) are a minority. This is a shame. That is all I'm trying to say. I am not trying to be elitist or whatever (what a derogatory term this has become...). Don't feel attacked... I'm only saying that there are people out there who expect more from a game than flashy graphics and leet sorcerors. Boy, what I wouldn't give for a remake of Darklands... Red Kite is right, maybe this is a generation thing. Um, no wait, I'm 23.

I think you misunderstood me CrashDome (if indeed you were referring to my statements). You make it sound as if 'realistic' was completely incompatible with 'fantasy'. This is a common mistake. Many people assume that if a world contains magic or other fantastic elements, every trace of realism immediately goes out the window. Indeed, this is often the case, but isn't necessary. For example, why shouldn't a world in which dragons and magic exist have realistic social strata or complex political structures? Why shouldn't the people inhabiting this fantastic world have to deal with issues which affected the inhabitants of the period this world is based upon (famine, plague etc. etc.)? My point is this: more often than not, when a game/book/film claims to be "fantasy in a medieval setting", this medieval setting is limited to castles, swords, armour and gaunt peasants. Writers/developers/directors just don't take the time to create a believable world: "We'll just fill that void with lots of flashy magic and shining armour! Oh, and we'll let the main character join a thieves' guild, that will be cool". This is what I mean by realism: not creating a mirror image of our world, but creating a believable, complex world, with believable social structures, institutions, etc. Perhaps I should replace 'realistic world' with 'a world consistent with its premise'. If magic did exist in a given world, and its users would really be able to shoot fireballs from their fingertips, how would the authorities react? Such people are an obvious threat to law & order. Practically no run-of-the-mill, AD&D based book/game/film addresses such issues. More often than not, 'fantasy' means some sort of escapism, a way to escape the complexities of real life. That's why most fantasy works (LOTR being the prime example...) are simplistic stories, built around the worn-out idea of yet another battle between good and evil. Some people may like, but I'm genuinly sick and tired of it. That's why I enjoy the (old) Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay world, and books like the Song Of Ice And Fire series. There are no obvious good and bad guys (in WFRP, the average person is caught between Order and Chaos, which are basically two sides of the same coin and equally 'bad'. As George Martin said: "There is noone who will actually say, unless in a cartoon: "I am the Dark Lord and I'm going to do Dark Things". We are all Grey Lords." Unfortunately, too many fantasy productions ARE this simplistic. And that's what annoys me. Phew. Bit of a sore spot, this one.

This is what he have consistently been referring to as 'human pwnz0r'. It's obvious that a human is better than the AI, but what we have been discussing is the practice of leaving the AI behind and going solo. I'm glad we agree

My sentiments exactly Og. If you want to shoot shit up, Zeus offers small-scale missions. If you want to simulate larger engagements, where maneuvering and anticipating the enemy's next move is the key, than AI squads are a necessity. Applying human pwnz0r to such missions totally negates their purpose. Boy, what a reflective, introspective community Zeus can be

The specific example of Thief, Oblivion and similar games aside, I think Red Kite has a good point in saying that nearly all games/books/films set in a (pseudo)medieval period simply MUST contain vast amounts of magic in all forms and shapes, at the cost of accurately representing the period. Why? The medieval age/renaissance have so much to offer on their own! By this I don't mean that every game/book/film based on the middle ages should mirror Europe of that time in every respect, but things like the plague, religious intolerance, the feudal system etc. offer many engaging story hooks without resorting to the cliche that is magic. I have nothing against magic and fantasy elements per se, but I see them as a spice: use too much of it, and it spoils the meal. The terms 'magic' and 'fantasy' say it all - they should be fantastic and elicit wonder in the reader/viewer. If there is an orc or half-elf l33t sorcerer on every street corner, (e.g. oblivion) what's so special about that? Nothing. It just becomes yet another mundane element of the everyday world. In fiction, I believe George R.R. Martin has struck the perfect balance in his Song Of Ice And Fire series. The world of Westeros does contain magic and fantastic beings, but they are forgotten, other-wordly, mysterious and poorly understood. They are, in short, truly 'fantastic'. And that makes it so fun to read. This is the reason why I enjoy Mount & Blade so much. The vanilla game is just an engine for simulating a pseudo-medieval world. Modmakers can use it to create any world they wish. Mods like the Storymod are the perfect example of what I find enjoyable: a good plot about political machinations between warring factions, with a bit of myth and wonder thrown in for good measure. Not the other way around. So, why this rant? After all, it is just a matter of taste, isn't it? The problem (for me) is, that the cliched magical-missiles-coming-out-my-arse theme is so utterly dominant in books and films as well as games. It is becoming exceedingly hard to find a game that focuses on an engaging, realistic plot without relying solely on 'magic' and flashy spell-casting graphics. The last game that suited my taste in this regard was Fahrenheit (or The Indigo Prophecy as it is called in the US). A realistic, engaging adventure game about the human condition, with some fantasy elements which remain truly fantastic. As they should.

Seems very realistic to me, don't you think? Squad leaders should be the first target, as the death of the leader seriously hampers the squad's effectiveness, until the second in command takes over. In game terms, it takes the player some time to respawn in another soldier and retake control of the squad. Seems like a good simulation to me. The whole point is, "scripts or mission design solutions" aren't necessary to enforce this. The Zeus experience relies on so many agreements which are not enforced by game design, i.e. dead men don't talk, obey the leader etc. The Zeus bunch are mature people, not l33t brats who need to be arm-twisted into obeying 'the rules'. If we all just agree to not use human pwnz0r, I think the Zeus experience will change for the better. Otherwise, what's the use of making large-scale missions? Just to increase the players' respawn pool?

I do think Ryan is right. If you use the AI properly, they can be a very valuable asset. An AI squad with a human leader equipped with binoculars can be very deadly indeed. There is no way a single human armed with a rifle (not with the grenade-spam GL) can take out a whole squad. Lwlooz, I understand what you are saying about "historical reasons", I know them quite well. In original OFP and various other popular mods, a single player could fire with such deadly accuracy that moving in groups was deemed unwise. However, in WGL it takes sever bullets to actually kill a single soldier. One must thus be a true master of zen to take out an entire squad on one's own - it simply takes too much bullets to kill a single soldier. Thus the historical grounds for human pwnz0r are proven to be no longer valid, as all the missions on Zeus are run under WGL 5.1. Naturally, the issue of the AI remains - they do die easily, especially if one is on the move. However, this is not unrealistic - if the enemy is stationary and has the element of surprise, then a moving squad is going to be toast (vide all A&D's on Zeus). However, if two relocating enemy squads meet, the outcome is different, as everyone is at the same disadvantage. The primary tactic in succesful AI commanding is: as soon as you spot the enemy: stop, drop and target. Halt your AI, have them drop to the ground, and seek out individual targets. If you can do this, the AI become an indispensable asset. If you just run around dragging the AI behind you: yes, they are going to die. Is it unavoidable? No. Does it require practice? Yes. On a final note, if we all agree to use our full squads instead of keeping backups for respawns, we will all be at the same (dis)advantange. In other words, it won't matter. But it will contribute to a better experience and a larger sense of scale.

I must admit to being surprised at how much support this bill has garnered on these forums. Generally, I consider the people on this forum to be intelligent, so I would have thought everyone would be up in arms at this obvious infringement of civil liberties. Sure, we all know that denying a documented genocide is wrong if not downright idiotic, but think of the precedent it sets! If the bill passes, the government will have the jurisprudence to play thought-police. Furthermore, such laws create dogma's, taboos, and stifle discussion. If you want to prove someone wrong, you should do it in open discussions, with sound arguments. It's a fantasy to think that this law will eliminate the denial of the Armenian genocide. It will only serve to push these sentiments to the perifery; the teahouses and livingrooms, far from the public's eye. This is far more dangerous, because such sentiments will only grow stronger when isolated and not subjected to critical review in open discussion. I believe the only reason this bill was even proposed was to ease the French mind: "if one does not talk about it, it does not exist". How myopic. Incidentally, this whole bill has nothing to do with Turkey's accession to the EU, as the recognition of the genocide has been scrapped from the list of EU demands. Why this has happened is beyond me.

Great games last night gentlemen. "Hunted" was very tense, and riding on top of BTR while police helis zip past overhead was great fun! The "four towns" A&D proved to be very atmospheric and it seemed to offer tactical freedom never seen before in an OFP PvP mission (at least by me). However, this experience was sabotaged by a rather annoying tendency: human pwnz0r. Now, I am not quite sure what the Zeus policy on human pwnz0r is, but what's the point of simulating a company-size engagement if it is being reduced to piece-meal skirmishes of 3 vs 3? I understand the logic behind leaving most of one's AI's in a safe spot an moving out with a small team: it limits casualties. However, it totally destroys the immersion in my opinion. OFP is all about scale, after all. Can you imagine the sheer coolness of defending hill 120 against a big fuck-off assault performed by an entire platoon? Actually having to retreat in order not to lose an entire rifle squad? Naturally, there is no way we can actually force op cmd's to approach the game in this way, but Zeus seems to be the perfect group of people for such tacit (or explicit) agreements. After all, when one joins the Zeus server, some basic rules automatically apply (no ramboing, listen to your CO, etc. etc.) The beauty of it is that these rules are being obeyed voluntarily: there is no rule-police or any harsh penalties should one not comply. People just do, because the Zeus community is a mature one and everyone understands that these ground rules are a prerequisite for a good game. Given all this, I don't think it should be too hard to implement a "no human pwnz0r" policy. Naturally, I don't know how others feel about this, but in my opinion it would add a lot to the immersion and action intensity. Just so nobody thinks I had no fun at all yesterday, I would like to paraphrase Jinef: "At one point in the game, I would like to surround Balls and probe them gently." The execution of the plan suffered a slight delay, because everyone spent an entire minute laughing after Jinef uttered these memorable words

I'm sorry, I couldn't help snickering when I read this sentence Akhem, back on topic... You are entirely correct Jinef. The Cold War was riddled with "close calls", and only now are we starting to hear about some of them (e.g. Stanislav Petrov). Faulty equipment, hardliners and fanatics on both sides: one would expect the earth to have been blown up ten times over already. But it hasn't. Naturally, this does not mean that the proliferation of nuclear arms isn't a problem. What this example does show, however, is that historically, there is no 1:1 relationship between the amount of nuclear weapons and the Nuclear Holocaust Probability . In other words, we should be worried about these developments, but we should not act as if the end of days was nigh.

Lwlooz, I have to disagree. While what you say is correct in theory, the practice contradicts it. We have six decades of states armed with nukes behind us. If anything prevented (a conventional) WWIII, it was the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction. Symmetry causes stability, even if it is paradoxically achieved by arming states with weapons capable of destroying the world. You say that all it takes for millions of people to die is a group of crazy people. I don't think I'm too wildly off the mark when I say that both the USA and the USSR have had their fair share of nutjobs. Still, the Cold War managed to remain Cold. Why? Because decision-making in states is (de facto) not entrusted to individuals. What should be stressed however, is that we have consistently been talking about states possessing nuclear weapons. Not individuals, or groups of individuals. Unfortunately, we have no way of saying whether 'rogue' countries won't be inclined to supply such 'individuals' with nuclear weapons. I fear that is the whole problem. Let's take a step back. We have no way of saying whether NK actually tested a real nuke, given all the contradictory reports. Nevertheless, one only has to read a few international papers or some discussion forums to realise that the dubious report released by NK has had tremendous effect. Hundreds, if not thousands of people are howling for North-Korean blood. I haven't devoted much time to reading other forums, but I'm dead certain that right now, someone is comparing NK to Germany in 1936. Pregnant words like 'appeasement' are being used, just as they were in 2003 by the Bush administration. And over what? A dubious report released by the suspect himself.

Hmm, IIRC ECP had incorporated a better (although still flawed) system for blast damage simulation. If I am not mistaken, it was based on the notion that there had to be a clear line of sight between the soldier and the explosive for blast damage to have any effect. In other words: if you lie down behind some sandbags and a grenade explodes in front of them, you don't take any damage. Of course, it isn't perfectly realistic as shockwaves from a blast travel through obstacles. Furthermore, a brush also blocks LOS so according to this system it would protect the soldier from the blast. Still, it's better than taking out 10 people hiding in a building by throwing a grenade at it. Naturally, the issue of lag also comes into play. I assume this is all done via scripting, so having many units and explosions on the map may prove troublesome. Gah, I still can't believe BIS failed to model correctly such an important aspect of any infantry sim.

Ooh, don't let walker hear that

Drat, too bad I couldn't attend; sounds like you had a great game!

Irfanview sure didn't like it!

Indeed, I noticed that on Blue Quartz. Your position in forest 1 was a vital one, and having to type your reports couldn't have been very good for your squad's odds of survival...

Hahaha, when I PM'ed Jinef about the author of the quote, he replied: Temper temper Mr. man!

Hahaha, what a game that was! I can't believe East actually won... I must remember to thank Cibit for that time limit IIRC, this was the first time any significant fighting occured around the factory... I never thought an amphibious assault would succeed, what with the m113's painfully low speed. Ryan and I managed to hold off a few waves of infantry, but eventually succumbed to their superior numbers... Screenshot of the final results Take a look at that casualty rate... Hehehe... Good game everyone

Boy, did we ever "do" Domensk If I am not mistaken, this was the first time the side I was on won this mission. We should thank Walker for his swift and accurate arty barrages; according to Jinef he "killed shitloads of troops". Hunting down Bravo, the lone West survior, proved to be fun as well. Enetering the townhall SWAT-stylee was quite fun, even though he wasn't there... Even though the evening started badly, with Tipsi's squad getting taken out by an NSV before even hitting the beach and our squad getting blasted by friendly arty, we still had a lot of fun with other missions. My quadruple IED surprise on Afghanistan certainly helped in that respect Every time I get ready for the Zeus game night, I cannot help thinking "wow, we're going to play missions we should all know by heart by now, yet the experience is still going to be fresh". I think this realisation encapsulates the Zeus ideology: open-ended missions, which offer so many tactical possibilities that the same missions are never... the same. Good games everyone!

Well, problem solved, it seems. I cross-checked the monitor with the laptop and it works just fine. After the umpteenth restart of the desktop, the monitor suddenly displayed the bios screen, claiming that the computer isn't booting correctly due to incorrect CPU speed settings (although the displayed 1.8 Ghz was very correct indeed). One troubleshooting site claimed this problem might be RAM related, so I did a little bit of RAM-shuffling and all is well. For now... *ominous music crashes in* It would seem it's time to reinstall memtest! Anyway, unless the binary gods decide to play a foul trick on me again, I will be attending tonight's game. Aren't you glad!