madrussian

Hey ArmAIIholic, no problem man. And thanks for all that info... Very handy indeed! :) Looks like it's pretty easy to whip up all kinds of actual turn based missions!

I just discovered your tool and tried out zapat's Timebender mission. Awesome! To me, the most intriguing part of WICT is this concept of "turns". But after checking out the demo, and browsing through the manual, I'm really lost on how exactly the "turns" are suppose to play out in practice. Specifically, I'm wondering: 1. What exactly constitutes a "turn"? 2. What triggers the start of a new turn? 3. Is it based on a timer? 4. Can I advance the turn with a script command? 5. If so will I see any evidence of any turn advancing? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what a turn actually is in WICT. I guess maybe I was envisioning something like in the Total War games. In any event, very cool and immersive mod! Lots of potential here for mission designers!

Good call. I haven't ruled out this possibility. :) I would really like to be able to create some default BIS vegetation on the fly (to run more exhaustive tests, and avoid 3rd party mods, etc), but after spending about an hour last night, I couldn't get it figured out. Anyone able to do this? Yes, that is what I mean, the LoD specifically for AI view blocking. :) I'm sure I can create a scenario where it seems like AI can see through vegetation in Cherna or Taki. But it would carry some ambiguity... if I create a sea of visually impenetrable bushes then it's a better test, by my reckoning anyhow. That's all. With all due respect, that last argument of yours may have begun descending into the semi-absurd. :eek: (Please though, no offense intended. Btw, I think this is a great thread you've created.) If you will persist in refusing to try out my test mission, (which is the only way I know currently to test this in intentional unambiguous fashion), and decline to answer friendly responses to your PMs, please allow me to continue with some less-scientific anecdotal evidence: Many of us, day in and day out, continue to experience issues related to AI-View-Blocking in areas of dense vegetation. Just check out the X-Ray AI thread, and I'm convinced what you'll see is just the tip of the iceberg. I should again emphasize that by-and-large, the AI-View-Blocking in ArmA 2 is pretty good. Vegetation brings out the issue, and jungle maps like Razoreniya, while technically and visually stunning, and rendered all but unplayable as a result. Who among us has NO ISSUES with ai-view-blocking in the jungles?!? Because I've been waiting for jungle maps for so long and wasn't ready to throw in the towel just yet, I started experimenting. My first instinct was to sprinkle extra default ArmA2 vegetation (via MAP_EU) in the mission areas to try and make these jungle maps more playable. But that seemed to have absolutely no effect on AI-View-Blocking. The next logical step was to create my test mission, in which the AI can see you directly through a visually impenetrable vegetation barrier. To me this is the smoking gun! (And if I can eventually reproduce this test by creating default BIS vegetation on-the-fly then all the better.) In any event, the reason I have been so personally invested and persistent regarding this AI-View-Blocking issue is that I'd simply like to be able to enjoy forest and jungle combat on the default ArmA2 terrains, and on the amazing jungle terrains this wonderful community of ours has created. Anyway Walker, do whatever you want and "bust" whatever myths you want. It is, after all, your thread. However: You can't change the fact that many many players continue to have AI-View-Blocking issues (real or otherwise) in the forests and jungles of ArmA2. :D

Very good question! The reason I prefer to test AI-View-Blocking with a sea of bushes is that when I place various individual bushes in the editor to examine them, I (as the human player), can always see through the vegetation to the other side, to varying degrees based on the vegetation object. Seems to me that if I might be able to see AI on the other side (even only a few pixels), then it's really not a 100% complete test. Now, I know that AI-View-Blocking is actually suppose to be based on view-lods. (Allegedly, along with other factors like surface, which may be at the heart of the problem.) But if I place a ton of these bushes in a very dense area, and still get detected and shot... well then imo it presents a much stronger case that there's a real underlying issue. Unfortunately, when using the default terrains as they exists (Chernarus and Utes), no matter the location, there is always some ambiguity as to: 1. How thick was the vegetation? 2. Could I see some pixels through it? 3. Did the underlying view-lods actually block the entire view? And how would I even know if the view-lods did block the entire view, as I can't see them in-game? Etc, etc, etc... However, with a TON of hand placed bush objects packed tightly together, all doubt is removed. ;) Right on... Fair enough. :)

OK, I fired up ArmA 2 in vanilla with no mods running and there is NO vegetation that I can find in the editor... which is after all, why Mapfact created MAP_EU in the first place: so we could place our own vegetation! :p The AI-View-blocking issue is most easily apparent when a massive amount of vegetation is present... as in enough to completely block out every pixel of the player's view to the other side. This is what I have created in my test mission. As mentioned before, the only thing MAP_EU does is to allow access to objects that appear on the map, but that we have no access to place normally in the editor. For example, all the vegetation in the game!!! Yes, to adequately test AI-View-blocking, we really do need MAP_EU... (or know Visitor) in order to erect a mass-vegetation barrier. Here's the config for that burley bush within MAP_EU: class MAP_b_salix2s : MAP_Plants_DTe { scope = 2; displayName = "B b_salix2s"; icon = "\MAP_EU\icon\PB.paa"; model = "\ca\plants2\bush\b_salix2s.p3d"; }; class MAP_Plants_DTe : MAP_Plants_Base { destrType = "DestructTent"; accuracy = 1000; }; class MAP_Plants_Base : Static { displayName = ""; accuracy = 0.1; vehicleClass = "MAP_EUPlants"; model = ""; nameSound = ""; animated = 0; simulation = "house"; cost = 0; armor = 300; ladders[] = {}; placement = "slope"; }; Nothing terribly fancy going on in there, eh? Mainly just the model and icon. So anyhow, in a vain attempt to appease you vanilla purists :p, I spent some time trying to figure out a way to create these plant types without MAP_EU, but so far no dice. Anyone know a proven method to create ArmA2 vegetation on the fly in vanilla without an accessor mod like MAP_EU? I would simply create them using createVehicle, but when I try a typeOf on desired in-game vegetation objects, I get back "#mark" for all vegetation objects types I checked. In the mean time, why not spend a few seconds and get MAP_EU here, fire up my test mission, and at least see exactly what I'm on to here? :D Good day. :)

I wasn't aware that there even were bush entries in vanilla (i.e didn't think there were), and thus I was using map_eu to get at them. I'll try and find the equivalent of that map_eu bush and see if it's in there. It may be that map_eu is the only way to place that particular bush... In the mean time, certainly map_eu does nothing beyond making assets available to the editor. Does anyone believe that map_eu does anything at all beyond this purpose?!? btw- I understand why some would like to believe that AI-view blocking in ArmA 2 is perfect. After all, who in their right mind would want problems in the game? But I think it's important to note that there are a great number of us who have issues with AI seeing through vegetation. Turning a blind eye can't be the answer. @NeMeSiS- What happens when you run my specific test mission (with map_eu)? Are you shocked by the result? Just curious. :)

Nice characterization! Seems like what you have pin-pointed here explains much of biotic AI sighting the player. For the record though, as far as my test mission goes: There are only two units in the mission, you and a single enemy AI standing on the other side of a mega-mass of vegetation. And somehow he can detect and kill you right through all that mass-bush. Happens right when you start up the mission, even when you stay perfectly still from the get-go! So there's definitely something wrong going on specific to actual AI-view-blocking, and perhaps surface, etc... ...aside from "seeing through each other's eyes" (which again is an awesome discovery by itself, Heatseeker).

Hi Walker. I hope you will try my test mission. It's quite entertaining, actually! :) Here's an excerpt from one of my posts on the X-Ray AI thread. Please read carefully before firing up the test mission: Anyone who has any doubt what-so-ever on the AI-view-blocking issue (who currently leans either way, it matters not) should try this test mission out, and decide for yourself. If this does not convince you that there are issues with AI-view-blocking under certain conditions, well then nothing will!!! :D

Yes, as detailed in the thread, MAP.EU is required. (Should have mentioned in my post above also.) MAP.EU simply allows access to standard BIS objects that cannot be accessed without it. That's all it does. You cannot bust a myth with a simple video (or many for that matter) showing cases where something works correctly, especially when there is direct evidence to the contrary. You need to actually address specific claims, in this case specific claims that AI-view-blocking is faulty under specific circumstances. Yes, Adam and Jamie would be quite displeased with some of the methods in play here. :D Good luck debunking these claims though, because regarding AI-view-blocking, we have cold hard facts in our favor. Don't get me wrong though, I don't happen to like these AI-view-blocking issues. And I do hope BIS (or perhaps our old friend Durg) will completely fix them someday. :)

Interesting approach Walker... appears this took you some time and effort to put together. :) Although I haven't examined all of your alleged "myth busts", I take particular issue with this one regarding AI not being able to see through bushes. As I clearly detail on this thread regarding the AI's Biotic X-Ray Vision through certain objects, the AI can indeed detect you through certain game objects, in this case certain bushes. The tests revealing this evidence are 100% repeatable, and 100% without ambiguity. If there are any disbelievers, please check out the demo mission I posted within that thread. Here's the demo mission again. The evidence inside speaks for itself. In contrast, posting even a thousand videos of cases where AI-view-blocking is working correctly, does not in any way prove that AI-view-blocking works all the time and in all cases! The undisputable truth: AI-view-blocking has repeatable issues in specific cases and needs some attention! Cheers! :cool:

Three things: 1. New environments (and associated units) - My hopes include realistic and optimized jungle, modern sprawling city, and an engaging sci-fi locale. 2. Fully enterable / destructible building pack (hopefully quite versatile so the assets will apply to numerous user-created terrains. OA's buildings, while great, are unfortunatley very terrain-specific) Most importantly: 3. Robust story-driven campaign full of deep characters and immersive cut-scenes on par with original OFP. Any setting, just give me that "Wow!!!" factor that original OFP and Resistance delivered. We've been waiting patiently for this since 2001... :)

I just thought of this specific idea: Someone should remake Chernarus but with all and only enterable buildings. Imo, IceBreakr already proved something like this could work extremely well with the mighty Panthera.

And let's not forget in OA they are all largely destroyable, unlike the majority in base ArmA2. Chalk another in support of OA buildings! Yes, if BIS continues this destructability trend, I sure hope they have another expansion in the pipeline... with heavy modern urban environment, all of which can be blasted apart. :D

Seems like there are some specific civs from base ArmA2 accessible in OA in the "Special" category. Probably a couple of specific units they needed for the OA campaign.

After reading your initial post, well... What you have described is completely missing the essense of what Total War is all about. :eek: It can't rightly be called Total War without: 1. Turn Based Campaign Map 2. Individual Real-Time Battles that end (and thus affect the campaign map) Maybe modify your description accordingly... or give your mission another name?

Recent MSNBC article (June 27): Israel setting up Saudi base for Iran raid?

Great island! I especially love that virtually every building is enterable! :) A bit more terrain variation (in terms of satmap or whatever) might be nice but man... One hell of an awesome effort! Very nice indeed!

Oh man, this ain't MythBusters, but if it were, Adam, Jamie, and company would be very unhappy with you (and our friend NeMeSiS) regarding your lack of due scientific process. :eek: Unfortunately, pointing to videos of cases where AI view blocking does work (or pretty pictures of specific view-lods for that matter) does not in any way negate the issues with AI detection that many of us experience on a daily basis. Indeed, if you start at the beginning of this thread and read the actual premise of what I'm saying, there is no myth here. Only cold hard facts. In order to specifically show exactly what I'm having an issue with, fire up ArmA2 with no addons running (only MAP_EU.pbo), and then try my test mission which I've uploaded here. Inside you will find immediate death at the hands of an AI soldier standing on the other side of a massive visually impenetrable vegetation barrier. The AI cannot possibly hear you, because you haven't moved. He cannot possibly see you because I have placed well over 1000 robust bush objects (wide at the base, taller than a man) in a very small area, and the ground is perfectly flat. If at this point, you are now curious, as I was, move the enemy AI out of the way, restart the mission, and take a good look at the colossal vegetation barrier I have erected. It is so thick, I don't even think you can walk through it! You cannot see any pixels through it! Over 1000 dense bushes so densly packed, that you can't even get to the other side or see a single pixel on the other side, yet the AI has detected and shot you with deadly accuracy in a matter of seconds!!! Something is wrong!!! :butbut: This bears repeating: There is no rational explanation why the AI would have any idea you are there. At least in terms of rational human thought, the "surface" in this specific example could have absolutely no bearing what-so-ever. In other words, if the "surface" is causing the AI to be able to deploy X-Ray vision through a densely packed sea of over 1000 burley bushes, then there is a significant problem with how the "surface" algorithm is being implemented. Or maybe there's just really something else terribly wrong with AI view blocking in certain cases. One way or the other, I'd really like to get to the bottom of it. I challenge anyone to explain what is going on in that test mission. And hopefully propose a solution to fundamentally fix the issue. btw- This thread is really not about strategies to deal with the quirky AI x-ray capabilities. Rather, this thread is an endeavor to understand the root cause of the problem and hopefully fix it. Thanks for all the responses so far. :)

I think I just shit a brick. :bounce3: That is by far the best news I've read of any kind in the last several months, and in case anyone is wondering, I am dead serious. Not required, but oh yeah baby you can turn it on!!! Judging by the way the VBS stuff makes it's way down to ArmA series, maybe we will get real physics in BIS games within a mere year or two. Not to mention hardware accelerated at that! Hold onto your hats, boys. edit: Agreed, Ephoria is mind blowing. :) I don't think it's remotely cheap though. Considering only two game developers (last I checked) can afford it. When they don't list a price on the website, and ask you to contact them, and then mention they will send a team to assist you in implementing, well it ain't gonna be cheap. :D Having said that, I would love to see Ephoria in ArmA and Carrier Command.

Very very well said! Bravo man. :) And on top of this general systematic over-detection problem, it seems in addition I have proven with my test mission that AI can actually see through extremely dense vegetation in certain cases. The question is, can anything be done? Where oh where is master Durg?

Curious, was that with the "Infantry Stealth and Recognition Skills Mod" (you mentioned previously) running or not? If you did not have that mod running and still got that result, maybe I'll upload my small test mission, and see if you get the same result I do... X-ray AI opening fire immediately through a visually impenetrable sea of vegetation. Not sure what type of object that "B b_salix2s" is exactly, but placing one in the editor produces exactly one object that I would call a bush (and one that looks like it should be a good view-blocker). MAP_EU Plants is divided up into B, G, M, and T, so I'm assuming that B is a bush, T a tree, etc. I guess I'm not exactly sure what "clutter" is in this context, though I've heard a number of people talking specifically about it. Can someone explain? Let me remind everyone that to me ArmA2 AI view detection seems OK most of the time, which by itself is a HUGE improvement over ArmA1 (which required Durg's to even be playable imo). So yes the system currently in ArmA2 is basically fine. It's just that the AI seems to have x-ray vision when looking though certain vegetation, in cases where it should not matter in the slightest what "surface" you're standing on. Bottom line is this: I have produced a scenario with AI seeing through unbeleivably thick vegetation that no reasonable person could say makes any sense what-so-ever. If the system is "working as intended" then in this case, there are underlying issue with the system that I would like to expose and hopefully address/mitigate. btw- Thanks for all the responses so far. :)

Cool, I'd be interested to see how it pans out! Well, it seems to be at least half true that the AI seeing you is heavily based upon the surface. The other factor is obviously View LODs, which work consistently well with buildings, but for whatever reason not so well with certain vegetation. I don't really care what surface I'm standing on... with a sea of vegetation between me and the AI and me not having yet even taken a single step, intuitively they should not have any inkling I'm even there! Agreed. Seems like this aspect was better applied in OFP though. In ArmA2, things seem a bit inconsistent at times. Very true! IMO, AI hearing could use a general tweak downward. As far as my editor test goes though, the AI would need ultra-superhuman hearing, as I had not moved, even in the slightest. In this case, my guess is he is actually seeing the player somehow.

Thanks for that link. :) My particular issue is not really with grass though, it's the AI seeing through certain objects, chiefly vegetation objects. Interesting theory Smurfbr. You may be on to something here. Anyone know any particulars regarding this? Instead of bitching, why don't you try out the repeatable experiment I detailed above, and then tell me the AI aren't x-ray capable in certain situations?!? Only takes five minutes. ;)

@DMarkwick Thanks for this thread. Great idea getting the uninitiated on board... More fun for the new guys -PLUS- More DAC visibility = more dynamic missions for everyone. :)

Indeed, the Script Variant and PBO Variant will work identically, at least so far as my functions are concerned. :)