Albert Schweitzer

Did I get this straight? FDF is coming forward with patch 1.3 ...already out? coming soon? Big lie?

A friend of yours steals your car-keys and tells you "you get them back tomorrow", do you then say, "oh thank for returning them earlier"?

It depends if the police department has a good relationship with the media. No that is irrelevant. It would depend whether the police stems from a country with high moral standards. If the police is known to be rather uncorruptable, from a very advanced country, then torture images would be more of a surprise and sell better. And secondly, the better the images, the more cruel the content, the better it sells!

One thing I would like to mention before I go on with my ranting. Isnt it sad to see that in all forums around the globe people feel the eager committment to post the full-version footage of Nik Borg being cut into 2 pieces? I refused and still refuse to look at the images and I advise you the same. Not everything goes under the "freedom of information" excuse!

I love all of you! We are the world, we are the children. Lets make this world a better place for you and me! Peace Enough flower power now..back into battle

what? Thats it? Six flying fluorscent bubblegums? Is the US airforce playing around with the mexicans again?

I have been searching for this video for the last 30 minutes. No chance. I try e-mule now

Very sad. I respect the moderators decision and I still think the discussion was under control (but there was a risk of derailing). We will see, I am gonna waste my time with research and eating!

Can someone please unlock the iraq thread again. Without this thread the forum is politically dead right now.

I thought now that we have a thread on basically everything we should introduce one where everyone can contribute his favourite military-related short clips. Please take into the consideration the forum rules (not dead meat please). And give a short summary of the clip so people with bad internet connection can choose before whether they would enjoy it or not. Here comes my first contribution. A (Line of Sight Anti Tank missile) LOSAT missile fired at an EMPTY russian tank MPG of test shot of the LOSAT (Line of Sight Anti Tank missile), launched off of a HUMVEE, which carries two loaded canisters on each side (4 missiles total). The commander/gunner supposedly can acquire and track three targets simultaneously, and engage one. Since the missile is hypervelocity (5000 feet per second), and has a maximum range of 5 kilometers, it doesn't take long to reacquire and engage the next two targets. The missile carries a kinetic kill warhead and penetrates all known or projected armor; it is 5 times more lethal than today's hottest tank round. It is also air droppable by parachute and can be sling carried by helicopter. check out the speed of that missile Movie

hell these people need to take cool and rapid decisions within milli-seconds!

yeah, but you know those spades are also used to build field toilets...and they are placed right next to them. They are basically always in and around the nature-toilet.

In germany we always got a nice little slap in the face when we dared to aim at someone with a toy-rifle. "Go hunting with your uncle instead! If you want to be a grown up then make sure we get food on our plates!" But it was worth a slap, did it all the time! Too realistic toy rifles are a no no for children in germany (18+), I had something like this instead! Strangely enough those compound-bows are dangerous indeed. But I only played in the woods with it.

The scandics are used to sandpaper as a substitute product. Oh before it was snow!

1st. Lets hope we can expect higher standards of morale from the US than from the Saddam torturers. Or shouldnt we? 2. I can assure you to be forced to homosexual actions, to be naked and downgraded by a foreign women and to be raped by a glowstick is just as terrible for a muslim than to be killed. But that (I mention it already) doesnt want to go into your heads! 3rd. Something like a torture-bonus-card doesnt exist. Just because your opponent does it doesnt mean you are allowed to do it. The western culture is not build around the idea "eye for an eye". Cause that, as buddhists say "would only cause both sides to get blind forever" 4th as far as "smart" strategy is concerned..what do you think the iraqis will do to the next captured US soldier? Well I hope you got a sick mind to figure that out

I am sure most of you have heard about the "stanford prison experiment" of 1971. It showed what a lack of control in prisons can have as consequences. Due to a escalation of the situation the experiment was aborted. if you are interested read this short slideshow (not powerpoint) You dont need the devil to cause such sorts of torture. All you need is ordinary people, lack of control and ...well thats enough! What suspects had done was to answer a local newspaper ad calling for volunteers in a study of the psychological effects of prison life. We wanted to see what the psychological effects were of becoming a prisoner or prison guard. To do this, we decided to set up a simulated a prison and then carefully note the effects of this institution on the behavior of all those within its walls. More than 70 applicants answered our ad and were given diagnostic interviews and personality tests to eliminate candidates with psychological problems, medical disabilities, or a history of crime or drug abuse. Ultimately, we were left with a sample of 24 college students from the U.S. and Canada who happened to be in the Stanford area and wanted to earn $15/day by participating in a study. On all dimensions that we were able to test or observe, they reacted normally. Our study of prison life began, then, with an average group of healthy, intelligent, middle-class males. These boys were arbitrarily divided into two groups by a flip of the coin. Half were randomly assigned to be guards, the other to be prisoners. It is important to remember that at the beginning of our experiment there were no differences between boys assigned to be a prisoner and boys assigned to be a guard.

aehm..If I have read the forum rules correctly... (shut up Albert!!!)

of course it is very harmful. Especially in the arab world those images only bring more danger to the soldiers and destabilise the the relationship between occupiers and civillians. And, many arab sites have published images of tortured prisoners that are actually fakes. And last but not least Avon is the last man standing (it is a saying of course she is a woman) in this thread to oppose us (not meant in a negative way). Where is the rest gone?

No Avon, I am wearing my normal unspectacular shoes! But I think I still got some good spikes at home! Â Â I think the term "SOPs" (standard Operating procedure) is reason enough to believe that those deeds werent committed by a few sadists but were a common system to try to break prisoners. In other words CICA (known to use Israel as benchmark since they officialy apply R2I-torture) was very much aware of such punishments and the military only despised them after they became public. Please consider the difference between "practices" and "procedures"

Good that a moron like the author of this article avoids OFP. I think that was one of the reasons why our community remained so exclusively good. I actually like to see when people with high ping join. I know it might upset the server but as long as it doesnt go up to 600 I doubt it causes great lags. Not everyone has or can afford DSL. But we are not an arrogant community only horny to win but one that enjoys the "get-together" spirit!

Please quantify "widespread" and "systematic". Listen to that then--Short WMV if it aint working then Go to http://news.npr.org/ and click on the "red cross" link under "world News" You can find the original article on the Wallstreetjournal.com of today.

AVON. I Dont have to "not to try to" because I simply "wasnt" equating.I dont need that comparison cause the present events can perfectly stand on their own. Just for the few of you willing to read the Fox perception on that Fox. No need to excuse!

Bullshit, I plan on talking just before it starts. Â Just wanted to lighten up the mood, you guys are getting into some sick stuff here, but basically prolonged sleep depravation will get you a talkative loonatic combined with even mild but constant annoyances... so , but it can also be very harmful, i.e. death. Â Well it is better talking about it than hiding what is currently happening. We are getting closer and closer to 1968 MayLay! The US might not have ratified the Geneva Convention but it certainly signed the UN no-torture treaty! 25 prisoners died because of "unknown" reasons Photos exist of prisoners that were "raped" with a luminous stick. Other were forced to mass-masturbxxx and to oral-xxx There are even PHOTOS of the Military Police raping a female iraqi prisoner! (according to Generalmajor Taguba) Iraqis were told that their families would suffer if they dont speak beaten up with the head of rifles Forced to sit on hot surfaces "a consistent pattern of abuse in Several prisons (Basra, Bagdad, South, Ramadi) RED CROSS How come that not the military is mostly in charge for the grilling but a civillian service provider (CACI). What is that? Some kind of outsourcing to a specialised Gestapo, so the military gets no blood on their hands? Nah, I know it gets nasty when you go into debth. But my "happy-day" attitude in this thread is gone. I wil no longer hesitate to step on someones patritotic foot. Â "committed by a few"? Yeah sure! We germans used that excuse already 60 years ago. Wont work! I am okay with many sides of torture. (sick me). But those photos clearly show that the border has been crosses. This is not meant to break the enemy, its purpose is to put him down and spit into his face. Maybe someone should finally tell your soldiers that those prisoners HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH 911!

It is too problematic if you make exceptions. For instance if Geneva had provisions for torturing prisoners that had information relevant to the life and death of others, they you could bet that every single prisoner would be characterized as such. There would be no discussions about the Iraqi prisoners. They would all "have" very relevant information. You have to put absolute limits with no room for interpretation or everybody will use the available loopholes. Again, it is important to remember what kind of warfare the Geneva conventions were designed for. In a European style combat theatre there is not much of an advantage of allowing torture. If you do it, your enemy will do it to you as well. In a large scale war the relevant information that you extract and that your enemy extracts from your soldiers will average out. In short, there is little to gain. Another issue with torture is that it is completely unreliable. Everybody talks after a period of torture. Even if they don't know anything, they will talk. With your idea, how far are you willing to go? Say you have a foreign in custody that you know has planted a bomb somewhere. Would you beat him? Would you use electric shocks? Would you cut of his limbs one by one? Would you rape his wife and daughter in front of his eyes? Would you kill the members of his family one by one? How far are you willing to go? The Geneva conventions really set a minimum of requirements. It allows for quite extensive interrogations. Going beyond it would be plain barbaric. There we are already at the point that I thought we would never reach in this thread. Good example, and there are always many constraints. A: we do not know whether the person keeps informations in his hands (considering the person held a certain military rank, we may assume that he should know what happens in his field of responsibility B: Does the prisoner holds an information in his hands that legitimises us to torture him? Whích secret allows torture, which doesnt. Very hard to explain that, isnt it? In that case the geneva convention should not diversify. This is the hot spot especially now in Iraq. I think there we should take into consideration whether a civillian or a military personal is under risk of being attacked. But what exactly is a civillian? C: what sorts of torture should be allowed? I dont know much about this field. There Denoir is more experienced due to his military past. Pschology: Do not threaten to harm their family or relatives Do not abuse their religion or their sex Physically: (hmmm... tough one isnt it?) ..maybe someone can help I gotta think about that! Post interrupted here!

Denoir, I fully agree with you but to approach the issue in a pragmatic way -> outdated! not applicable if life-saving information can be gained. Your point is noble and should be our future aim. But you may have observed that our idea of the geneva convention is a bit ahead of its time. Observing the latest retro-trend of suicide bombing, of religious brainwashing and the creation of soldiers that are meant to die in battle, well all that shows that we went too fast with our ideologie. We must create laws that are fit to be respected. A: A prisoner is a useful source of information B: Only a "certain" pressure can ensure that the information is unlocked. If the geneva convention blocks every possibility to get from A to B then it is doomed to fail and be ignored. But if laws would ensure a that the way from A to B can actually be achieved then there would be no more space for apologies, no more reason to search for a niche (Guantanamo) in the statues. How come soldiers GUARDING A PRISON were never realy shown the geneva convention? Doesnt that proof to you that countries do (maybe not deliberately) ignore them because they are so far away, so unachievable Hell every soldier should have a little GENEVA CONVENTION booklet in his pocket. Its laws should be printed into every soldiers memory. In large corporations most employees have to carry a little book with the mission statement in their pocket. THE US of A went into Iraq in order to defend western values and to export them. Well those western values are refined in the Geneva Convention. Even if our enemies fight with brutality we should feel obliged to stick to our rules. If we dont then our war is already lost. But in order to make this clear to the western world and especially the US, we first need to revitalise the idea of a common War-Morale. We need to discuss the issue productively and create a platform of rules that fit even the war against terorists. A written applicable law in the pocket of every american soldier would finally show them that the being born in the US doesnt mean you are given the fate to always instinctively do the right thing. Then soldiers would have the mean to judge their own doing against the REAL WESTERN VALUES, instead of just following the silly code of honour of the Marine Corps (this is my gun...bla bla bla)